WF sorc worth playing?

[Shyver]

Until a fleshy caster has solo'd or duo'd the Shroud, VoD, or new Reaver ,WF casters > fleshy casters for versatility and survivability.

[Varr]

Until a fleshy caster has solo'd or duo'd the Shroud, VoD, or new Reaver ,WF casters > fleshy casters for versatility and survivability.

To be fair, survivability is only one side of the coin. Generally, every class becomes more versatile and that directly adds to thier survivablity as they dilute there capabilities.........be it stat points, mulitclassing, or in this case sacrificing some specialization for self healing. Im a big fan of diluting, but that doesnt win this arguement, it just makes one side of the case. For solo or explorer the flexabilty makes a wf more attractive, where in larger parties the specialized higher success of spell landing and mana pools and the like make a drow better. Both arguements are valid, and neither disproves the other.

This is one reason I suggested earlier if you were going to make a casting wf, make him a wizard..........it plays more into the diverse and flexable benifits better than a sorc does, both in feats and in spell selection at a cost of mana and casting time.

[Shyver]

Have a lot to say. Sorry for the long post.

A well made drow sorc solo's better than any other race.

Incorrect, a WF will be able to solo more effectively with reconstruct than a drow using heal scrolls will.

The extra hit points for WF are not gonna save you from real trouble. If you really have trouble keeping your caster alive, you're better off sticking with Drow and taking 2 levels of Monk or Rogue. You will still be a pretty effective caster.

Hit Points and Evasion are two completely seperate subjects and the extra hit points from being a WF WILL save you from real trouble. Add in a Docent of Defiance and that's hit points and DR20 that the drow doesn't have.

Any other WF trait can be easily covered with clickies plus better UMD means better ability to restore ability damage and use race specific items earlier.

Though most of the WF immunities can be covered with items and clickies you've filled your inventory and character screen with poison protection, disease immunity, negative level drain, partial freedom of movement that the WF automaticaly get for free. So you don't even particularly need a ngh UMD to restore ability damage, because you ahven't taken any. But on the note of UMD, there are so many ways to boost UMD in the game as it stands now that it doesn't matter if you have a starting charisma of 16 or 20, by the time you're level 16 you can UMD any scroll in the game without fail.

People are deluding themselves and you when they tell you they perform as well as a drow with a WF. The performance is noticeably poorer.

In the endgame a difference of 2 on your DC's isn't much since the DC is so high to begin with. At that point it's more about getting by spell resistance than it is making sure your DC is high enough.

The -2 DC's are noticable and frustrating, compounded with Warforged inherent 5% ASF.

Warforged get an enhancement that reduces their ASF to 0% and it's cheap so it just fills one of the "trash" enhancements to get to a better one.

My point merely was that a WF though cool and maybe fun to play will not perform nearly as well as a Drow Sorcerer.

Again incorrect in the overall scope of the game. The difference of 2 in DC's doesn't make up the difference that is self-healing.

The better fort save is very cool, however, proper item usage alleviates need for fort saves (wisdom saves more a trouble at high level),

Wisdom saves for what exactly, Greater Command? The biggest killer of casters in the end game is Disintegrate which is a fort save. Or a delayed blast fireball which is a reflex save and an instance where more HP is better.

and the extra hit points will not save you from an aggro'd end boss who can take you down faster than you can cast (often causing concentration failure). Times like those you need a cleric helping you and as a WF that help is less effective.

Maybe a fleshy caster with a lower con score will fail their concentration check, but a WF will just cast reconstruct until the tanks re-establish aggo control, no need for the cleric to worry. And since the WF can get DR 20, has more hit points, and can self heal he isn't the liability that the drow is if he grabs aggro.

Any other time you really need not be hit by the enemy or can easily heal yourself.

Easily by making sure all your UMD equipment is on, equipping the scroll, casting off of the scroll keeping in mind the slow cast time, and hope you don't get hit or fail your concentration check. Yeah that's much better than a reconstruct.

(however, concentration will play a role and I feel these skill points can better be used elsewhere).

No concentration = poor scroll use when getting hit. Where, other than UMD, are you putting these skill points?

Like I mentioned before, a better option might include mult-classing two levels in an appropriate class, picking up evasion, monk ac, or armor use. You will be a better sorcerer .

Reducing your casting powers and spells known will not make you a better sorcerer.

let's not forget that warforged will not only have lower dc's on spells that can be saved against; they will also have a lower use magic device skill which is so useful for so many things...

So many things such as raise dead? There are so many ways to get around that now that there is an easy to craft True resurrection clicky, ring of the ancestors, and the collectibles out of the subteranean. But that aside, by end game a WF sorc's UMD will be high enough to succeed on a 1, same as the Drow. At a certain point getting a higher UMD is a waste in the current end game.

anecdote;
I was in a Reaver recently with a Drow and a WF sorcerer as casters. Things were running smooth with the Drow sorcerer fingering most of the elementals (around 8 of 10). At a really bad time, the Drow was knocked down then pounced on and killed by a poorly aggro'd Reaver. The number of elementals began to build up and one by one other party members began to die. One of the last was the WF sorcerer. In the end, he was directly responsible for no elemental kills, however, he outlived most of the party.

Point being? You ran with a poor WF sorc, and the Reaver is hardly a good testing ground since I outkill sorcs and WF casters in the Reaver on my HUMAN WIZARD everytime. So by this example I should come to the conclusion that human wizards > all casters?

where in larger parties the specialized higher success of spell landing and mana pools and the like make a drow better.

I disagree. The utility of the WF caster in large parties allows them to fill a spot that may have otherwise taken 2-4 people to accomplish the same task. Also if running with another wf, the sorcerer can act as healer for himself and the other WF, freeing up some of the responsibility from the cleric and making the quest run smoother.

I've seen WF sorcs do amazing things that a drow sorcs wouldn't even try to attempt for the simple reason that they can't. Given the option of a fleshy sorc or a WF sorc, I'm taking the WF everytime. I can trust that they can take care of themself and won't need a babysitter. UMD or not, I see fleshies die much more frequently when by themselves or when things start to go bad.

[Ghoste]

I've seen WF sorcs do amazing things that a drow sorcs wouldn't even try to attempt for the simple reason that they can't. Given the option of a fleshy sorc or a WF sorc, I'm taking the WF everytime. I can trust that they can take care of themself and won't need a babysitter. UMD or not, I see fleshies die much more frequently when by themselves or when things start to go bad.

Last time I ran the Sorjek quest, we had two wf casters, and a flehsy sorc in the party. At the end, after everything was over, the fleshy sorc apologized for dying so much. Given the fact that our main tank was also wf, the wf casters not only contributed by having most of the kills (the fleshy was too worried about getting agro and chugging pots to keep up), but they also kept the tank going which was especially important when fighting some of the bosses.

I laugh everytime I see the point that fleshies can get the same immunities (they can't get all, but most) with items. That's an extra equipment slot for every one of those immunities that a wf can use for something else.

[rimble]

Last time I ran the Sorjek quest, we had two wf casters, and a flehsy sorc in the party. At the end, after everything was over, the fleshy sorc apologized for dying so much. Given the fact that our main tank was also wf, the wf casters not only contributed by having most of the kills (the fleshy was too worried about getting agro and chugging pots to keep up), but they also kept the tank going which was especially important when fighting some of the bosses.

I laugh everytime I see the point that fleshies can get the same immunities (they can't get all, but most) with items. That's an extra equipment slot for every one of those immunities that a wf can use for something else.

I keep waiting for the game to go totally WF, hehe. Sorcerer's are the best healers (repairers) in the game.

[rejectedone]

I laugh everytime I see the point that fleshies can get the same immunities (they can't get all, but most) with items. That's an extra equipment slot for every one of those immunities that a wf can use for something else.

But on the other hand you lose a precious spell slot for reconstruct. Plus UMD which is practically a sorcerer class skill (and eats up all your precious skill points) doesn't complement a WF nearly as well. So then the question becomes why take sorcerer over wizard as a WF?

[Ghoste]

But on the other hand you lose a precious spell slot for reconstruct. Plus UMD which is practically a sorcerer class skill (and eats up all your precious skill points) doesn't complement a WF nearly as well. So then the question becomes why take sorcerer over wizard as a WF?

1 point of umd huh? (2 compared to drow) Yeah...that's gonna be noticed... Plenty wf sorcs out there very easily hitting the raise dead scrolls and even the higher lvl ones.

On the other hand, that's a +2 (+3 over drow) for concentration checks when scroll healing oneself (the extra +1 from racial con line), and no umd check to do so.

[maddmatt70]

Last time I ran the Sorjek quest, we had two wf casters, and a flehsy sorc in the party. At the end, after everything was over, the fleshy sorc apologized for dying so much. Given the fact that our main tank was also wf, the wf casters not only contributed by having most of the kills (the fleshy was too worried about getting agro and chugging pots to keep up), but they also kept the tank going which was especially important when fighting some of the bosses.

3 arcanes? Sorjek is best with 0 arcanes actually. Arcanes are inefficient in the quest. My optimum party for normal or hard would be 1 battle bard, 4 melee, and a cleric who can destruct an occasional air elemental or on elite 4 melee, 1 healing bard, and 1 cleric.

[rejectedone]

1 point of umd huh? (2 compared to drow) Yeah...that's gonna be noticed... Plenty wf sorcs out there very easily hitting the raise dead scrolls and even the higher lvl ones.

On the other hand, that's a +2 (+3 over drow) for concentration checks when scroll healing oneself (the extra +1 from racial con line), and no umd check to do so.

I was referring to the fact that WF don't need UMD to heal themselves, so that aspect of the skill is wasted on them.

[Ghoste]

I was referring to the fact that WF don't need UMD to heal themselves, so that aspect of the skill is wasted on them.

If self healing is your main use for umd, yes. Most wf sorcs that I know of still put the points in. Raise dead and some of the divine buffs have their uses. But ya, deffinitely a lower level of usefulness.

[CrimsonEagle]

What you lose.

2dc on spells
2 umd

What you gain?

Imortality.

WF casters, sorc's or wizards are second to none.

[Desteria]

3 arcanes? Sorjek is best with 0 arcanes actually. Arcanes are inefficient in the quest. My optimum party for normal or hard would be 1 battle bard, 4 melee, and a cleric who can destruct an occasional air elemental or on elite 4 melee, 1 healing bard, and 1 cleric.

but you will take pitty and bring desty along on an elite run with you any way right mate /hug

[Desteria]

I personaly love my human sorc adn would not trade her for any thing, i still feel human make the bets all round sorcs, note they don't even lose mainy hp to the WF either....

HOWEVER I know what a good WF sorc can do with the right build and gear, and one day when i finaly decied to make a second arcane it will most likly be a WF sorc or wiz, becasue any other arcane woudl just pale compared to my fully equiped original caster every time I played them but a WF would be a difrent style and possible even a battel caster.... visions of TWF WF wizzard....

[tinyelvis]

Here are Ironpint's stats:

* 14-16-27-20-6-33 (still hunting +3 cha and +2/3 con tomes)
* 48 AC self-buffed (turtling in a FW - swap boots etc.)
* 335 HP (another greensteel could take it to 367, con tome for 383 lol)
* 1990 SP (not specced for SP - he gets a ton of free mana from concordant and torque now)

Lets see the enhancements and feats

Nice build, Being a top notch player, I'm sure you make this guy shine. Glad you have fun with him. However, this toon represents exactly the situation I wrote about. Namely not being nearly as effective with arcane aspects.

These are not critiques but rather comments. You have chosen survivablity over Arcane ability. Not right or wrong, but rather a build choice. In fact, imo its the way to go if you choose WF.

1. 300-400 fewer spell points (noticeable but not necessarily a big deal on its own)
2. You have spent at least some enhancements on non-arcane upgrades.
3. Use spell locations for repair and/or reconstruct spells. Plus you use your already low mana pool to heal yourself.
4. But the biggest arcane issue is the low Charisma (your cast success rate is equivalent to an 11th or 12th level Drow Sorc).

Casters are the most miss-understood class in the ddo environment. If someone were to tell a melee fellow that he could have the ability to heal himself but that he would only hit as well as someone 5 levels his junior he would say....thats cool but I don't want to run a cleric. Essentially, the WF is analogous to an arcane cleric with a lot of hit points.

In order to obtain this benefit he makes a noticeable trade in arcane ability. Now, perhaps your play style fits this type of character, or perhaps you are so very talented that you don't need the extra arcane ability to be very successful. In either case have fun. There is no free lunch you cant have it both ways. Either self healing bag of hitpoints or high Arcane ability.

[Vyctor]

And wf sorcs make so much better battle casters it is not even funny. A wf battle sorc is really fun to play and pretty effective as well.

[Strykersz]

4. But the biggest arcane issue is the low Charisma (your cast success rate is equivalent to an 11th or 12th level Drow Sorc).

It's a 10% higher chance of a save. That means, I see 1 more save every 10 mobs I hit than you(which in a lot of cases, means I run the mob back through the cc). This isn't a huge deal, though I'm sure you only cast spells that you have 2 focus feats for(otherwise, you're casting them like a lvl 12 sorc!).


And I'm honestly not sure how he only has 1900 sp.

[Korvek]

1. 300-400 fewer spell points (noticeable but not necessarily a big deal on its own)

4 less charisma equates to 50 less spell points at level 16.

His equipment is just a bit lacking it seems.

[arrrcher]

and cant. I just cant. he's too effective and easy to play and durable... and... and...

what do you want? a lamburgini that never runs, needs constant attention etc. etc. or a willis jeep that ALWAYS makes it to where you want to go (with a little TLC).

what was the question again? ahhh, who cares. roll what you want and play it how you like.

I will say this though: after a very hasty skim of this thread I count the following tally:

Drow Sorc: 1(?)

WF Sorc: pretty much everyone else

[Magnicallus]

In the End i think it really comes down to how good a player you are......if you get owned often build the WF if not build a human or a drow. I see plaenty of wf that get owned and i have extra slots in my backpack to carry them to the shrine. As a drow or human you can cleric raids....ive cleric'd the reaver numerous times as the ony healer and have clericd part 4 shroud when the clerics went down. My drow caster has around 270 hp which is plenty the trick is not to use them. There was a post earlier in this thread stating that a sorc fw'd and stood in there shield blocking....that just makes me laugh :0) casters are wirey and evasive; jump around use diplomacy.

[MrCow]

There was a post earlier in this thread stating that a sorc fw'd and stood in there shield blocking....that just makes me laugh :0)

Its far easier for other people to hit things under predictable situations, like having something not move. Also, some people use the shield blocking to be hit as an advantage when coupled with things like the Torc de Raiyum II (often, a Warforged Arcane can come out equal in terms of SP gained vs. SP used to repair when shield blocking with this item).