WF sorc worth playing?

[GeneralDiomedes]

Don't underestimate the self-healing capabilities. Hitpoints are a red herring (even though FORT saves are not).

[Naso24]

Hitpoints do make a difference. Compared to Drow, WF have 4 more CON on otherwise similar builds (WF +2, Drow -2). WF can extend the gap by another 2 CON through enhancement.

6 CON = 48 HP at level 16.

On top of that, add another 20 HP from toughness enhancements for 68 HP. The HP will often save you from being single shotted, and will extend the time between having to drop a repair, thus saving more mana or allowing for more tactics.

And then there is the bonus to fort saves and the concentration skill.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Hitpoints do make a difference. Compared to Drow, WF have 4 more CON on otherwise similar builds (WF +2, Drow -2). WF can extend the gap by another 2 CON through enhancement.

6 CON = 48 HP at level 16.

On top of that, add another 20 HP from toughness enhancements for 68 HP. The HP will often save you from being single shotted, and will extend the time between having to drop a repair, thus saving more mana or allowing for more tactics.

And then there is the bonus to fort saves and the concentration skill.

Sorcs have problems with selecting feats anyway, hard to fit in toughness.
That said, drow get racial thoughness too, you know...

[Vyctor]

Sorcs have problems with selecting feats anyway, hard to fit in toughness.
That said, drow get racial thoughness too, you know...

True, but WF get more tiers of racial toughness, more tiers equal more hp....

[Darth_Sizzle]

Hello. I am playing drow wizard and sorcerer. Both of them are 16 level. I seldom join raid, but these days I often join shroud. I feel lack of healing skill is pain, so I am thinking of making WF wiz or sorc for survivavility(poison, disease, neg level immunity is good, too). WF wiz can start at 18 int, but sorc starts at 16 cha(28pt). My wiz almost always use quicken feat, so easily runs ouf of sp, but can do many things. Sorc have more sp, shorter casting and recasting time, but because of limited spell selectons and feats, sometimes I feel stressful. I see many WF sorc these days, but I havent decided which I should make. Compared to drow, 18 vs 20 int, 16 vs 20 cha, is big difference? I need advice, thank you.

Go WF Wizard.

Click on Blotto in my Sig to see what one looks like in all its' glory.

Edit: Oh, and stop using quicken so much, you'll save a lot of SP.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

True, but WF get more tiers of racial toughness, more tiers equal more hp....

10 HP for 3 AP's is a waste for a sorc imo.

[hu-flung-pu]

People are deluding themselves and you when they tell you they perform as well as a drow with a WF. The performance is noticeably poorer.

However, if you really like the WF have fun playing him no matter the performance.

I agree with this part of your post. The rest of it was flame baiting and basically shows your limited scope of game play and boring cookie cutter rules.

The -2 DC's are noticable and frustrating, compounded with Warforged inherent 5% ASF. You won't be able to land your spells as reliably as you would with a human or drow, and it's especially noticable on crowd control spells when 75% of your mobs make their saves. BUT, there are plenty of no save spells, that will let you remain functioning as a party member.

Having said that, being able to repair yourself with a reconstruct is a god send. And doing it twice as fast as a cleric ever could, and laughing out loud as Drow UMD sorcerors try to bring them selves to full with wands is something that can't be replaced.

With the low hit points of a caster and hitting reconstruct it's like hitting lay on hands as a paladin, and extends your fight for much, much longer. Here's a pro-tip for ya, try casting a max'powered reconstruct until you get a critical heal, and watch that near 1000 hit point repair spell knock you out of your chair.

[rimble]

I agree with this part of your post. The rest of it was flame baiting and basically shows your limited scope of game play and boring cookie cutter rules.

The -2 DC's are noticable and frustrating, compounded with Warforged inherent 5% ASF. You won't be able to land your spells as reliably as you would with a human or drow, and it's especially noticable on crowd control spells when 75% of your mobs make their saves. BUT, there are plenty of no save spells, that will let you remain functioning as a party member.

Having said that, being able to repair yourself with a reconstruct is a god send. And doing it twice as fast as a cleric ever could, and laughing out loud as Drow UMD sorcerors try to bring them selves to full with wands is something that can't be replaced.

With the low hit points of a caster and hitting reconstruct it's like hitting lay on hands as a paladin, and extends your fight for much, much longer. Here's a pro-tip for ya, try casting a max'powered reconstruct until you get a critical heal, and watch that near 1000 hit point repair spell knock you out of your chair.

Yeah, you know, I farmed all six Mod 8 gems on my Drow Sorcerer last night. Because of red named immunities, those Reavers Refuge rare fights devolved into me standing in a Wall of Fire and an Acid Fog, shield-blocking, and quaffing potions and using wands on myself like crazy with my whopping 206 HP (no he's not all Greensteeled out). DC's would not have mattered then, I was really wishing I was a WF as I was just burnin' through the cash (and BARELY keeping up with the healing).

Personally, their lower Cha does bother me, and I'll likely only ever play one as a Wizard...which I'm also working on right now, but I'd think you'd do just fine.

[Gunga]

My WF Sorc exiled my max cha, max con, heal scroll whipping Human Sorc to Thelanis.

[tinyelvis]

Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
People are deluding themselves and you when they tell you they perform as well as a drow with a WF. The performance is noticeably poorer.

However, if you really like the WF have fun playing him no matter the performance.
I agree with this part of your post. The rest of it was flame baiting and basically shows your limited scope of game play and boring cookie cutter rules.

My comments were hardly flame baiting. However, i did poke fun at wizards. I don't understand much of your post due to the exiguous English. (Please, not insulting here...my Chinese is much worse). However, I did notice you turned to personal assaults. This usually indicates frustration and a weak argument that needs help.

My point merely was that a WF though cool and maybe fun to play will not perform nearly as well as a Drow Sorcerer. The better fort save is very cool, however, proper item usage alleviates need for fort saves (wisdom saves more a trouble at high level), and the extra hit points will not save you from an aggro'd end boss who can take you down faster than you can cast (often causing concentration failure). Times like those you need a cleric helping you and as a WF that help is less effective. Any other time you really need not be hit by the enemy or can easily heal yourself. Toughness is best gained from an item, and the use of enhancements for anything other than spell augmentation makes you even less effective.

Yeah, you know, I farmed all six Mod 8 gems on my Drow Sorcerer last night. Because of red named immunities, those Reavers Refuge rare fights devolved into me standing in a Wall of Fire and an Acid Fog, shield-blocking, and quaffing potions and using wands on myself like crazy with my whopping 206 HP (no he's not all Greensteeled out). DC's would not have mattered then, I was really wishing I was a WF as I was just burnin' through the cash (and BARELY keeping up with the healing).

All of the rare bosses in new area (and old for that matter) can easily be overcome without the need to stand face to face with them, either by perches, safe spots, long range spell use or simply judiciously circling a well placed firewall. If your play style involves shield blocking and standing in a fire wall and/or playing your sorc like he is a fighter, then perhaps a WF is a good option for you (however, concentration will play a role and I feel these skill points can better be used elsewhere). Like I mentioned before, a better option might include mult-classing two levels in an appropriate class, picking up evasion, monk ac, or armor use. You will be a better sorcerer .

[rimble]

My point merely was that a WF though cool and maybe fun to play will not perform nearly as well as a Drow Sorcerer.

That's pretty absurd. They WILL perform nearly as well, but certainly not AS well at landing spells that allow saving throws, the decision as to whether the additional survivability is worth that trade off is why this game is so **** great. Personally, I wouldn't do a WF Sorc as I'm pretty much a DC fanatic, but I love that the choice exists, and that it is viable, even if not optimal for some things. I love that you can make a Wizard/Sorcerer 'tank' if that's your thing! That's awesome!

[Dktr]

let's not forget that warforged will not only have lower dc's on spells that can be saved against; they will also have a lower use magic device skill which is so useful for so many things...

[tinyelvis]

Originally Posted by tinyelvis View Post
My point merely was that a WF though cool and maybe fun to play will not perform nearly as well as a Drow Sorcerer.
That's pretty absurd. They WILL perform nearly as well, but certainly not AS well at landing spells that allow saving throws, the decision as to whether the additional survivability is worth that trade off is why this game is so **** great. Personally, I wouldn't do a WF Sorc

Heheheh, let's quibble over words but come to the same conclusion. Hilarious.

[rimble]

Heheheh, let's quibble over words but come to the same conclusion. Hilarious.

Not so. I wouldn't make a pure Rogue either because it's not my thing, but I think they're a fine class for others to play. I am capable of providing my opinion of the situation even if it's not one I would personally choose to follow.

I think 'not nearly as well' is an overstatement, that is all. Using the brutish methods I was farming gems with last night, a WF would have performed much better.

I apologize if calling your statement absurd put you on the defensive, I was just trying to express my high degree of disagreement.

[Dirac]

Interesting discussion: I think WF v fleshy is an interesting debate; almost enough to try both if one is interested. Odd, however, that everyone simply mentions drow. It seems to me at the moment human > drow for sorc. If the Drow gets +1 DC, the Human gets

1. extra feat (huge for sorcs)
2. more con to start and with AP (2nd most important stat)
3. 4 more action points
4. skill boosts

and others I may be forgetting.

[Dktr]

Interesting discussion: I think WF v fleshy is an interesting debate; almost enough to try both if one is interested. Odd, however, that everyone simply mentions drow. It seems to me at the moment human > drow for sorc. If the Drow gets +1 DC, the Human gets

1. extra feat (huge for sorcs)
2. more con to start and with AP (2nd most important stat)
3. 4 more action points
4. skill boosts

and others I may be forgetting.

My umd sorc is a drow, but I have human umd cleric and that skill boost is a nice boost. Human may in fact be the best choice for sorcerer.

[tinyelvis]

Humans make a really fine sorcerer perhaps the best class. However, this discussion is really about whats more important in a sorcerer, survivability or arcane performance (the two are not necessarily totally independent).

anecdote;
I was in a Reaver recently with a Drow and a WF sorcerer as casters. Things were running smooth with the Drow sorcerer fingering most of the elementals (around 8 of 10). At a really bad time, the Drow was knocked down then pounced on and killed by a poorly aggro'd Reaver. The number of elementals began to build up and one by one other party members began to die. One of the last was the WF sorcerer. In the end, he was directly responsible for no elemental kills, however, he outlived most of the party.

I stand by the statements that I have made
1) A WF will not perform nearly as well as a Drow Sorc (or human for that matter).
2) If survivability is your primary motivator, you are better off not taking a WF but rather another race with 2 levels in survivable class (say rogue for skills and evasion).

[smithers]

I have 8 capped characters, have been playing since beta.

My first 32 pt char was a drow wizard. No flaws in the build, and all the gear, but he's basically a mule now.

By far, my favorite character to play now is my WF sorc Ironpint (on Sarlona) (My Barb archer Coldpint is 2nd, my cleric is 3rd fav.)

To compare races, it's the -2 to DCs versus nice immunities, a *lot* more HPs, and the ability to instantly heal yourself 100%. Once you get reconstruct you will rarely ever die. No way you can compare drinking pots / heal scrolls the speed is no where close... WF sorc is the ultimate zerger

Here are Ironpint's stats:

• 14-16-27-20-6-33 (still hunting +3 cha and +2/3 con tomes)
• 48 AC self-buffed (turtling in a FW - swap boots etc.)
• 335 HP (another greensteel could take it to 367, con tome for 383 lol)
• 1990 SP (not specced for SP - he gets a ton of free mana from concordant and torque now)

Force of personality, racial toughness enhancements w minos legions, etc...
Looking forward to quicken again when he levels and making another concordant item, prob scimi with exceptional con+3

I have two nicely developed tanks, but my sorc has the most hps of the whole gang.

This guy has solod Reaver on normal, Coalescence on elite, Dust/Rainbow/RitSac normal, and and a lot of other good ones. He's my main looter, crafter, and by far the most fun these days. In VOD or other quests where there's a WF tank he can probably put out 3X more healing than my lvl 16 cleric. Fast-casted Reconstruct 285 on a non-crit for 35 sp.

Anyways, I don't think there are many ppl who have capped a WF sorc and not loved it.

[smithers]

Humans make a really fine sorcerer perhaps the best class. However, this discussion is really about whats more important in a sorcerer, survivability or arcane performance (the two are not necessarily totally independent).

anecdote;
I was in a Reaver recently with a Drow and a WF sorcerer as casters. Things were running smooth with the Drow sorcerer fingering most of the elementals (around 8 of 10). At a really bad time, the Drow was knocked down then pounced on and killed by a poorly aggro'd Reaver. The number of elementals began to build up and one by one other party members began to die. One of the last was the WF sorcerer. In the end, he was directly responsible for no elemental kills, however, he outlived most of the party.

I stand by the statements that I have made
1) A WF will not perform nearly as well as a Drow Sorc (or human for that matter).
2) If survivability is your primary motivator, you are better off not taking a WF but rather another race with 2 levels in survivable class (say rogue for skills and evasion).

You need to accept that in 10% of cases your enemy would save where if you were a drow it would have failed the save. That basically summs up the "performance" gap.

If the two in your anecdote were both behaving the same, the drow would have killed 10 and the wf would have killed 8.

Again, there are some insane benefits to measure this gap against. In my mind 100% worth it. If I ever roll another caster it will be another WF (prob Wiz14/Monk2 battle wiz)

[Thorzian]

go with the sorc. 2 more dc is nowhere near as valuable as a quickend reconstruct. i cant believe that hasnt been mentioned yet. umd has a concentration check. try getting that off in the thick of nasty compared to hitting a reconstruct button.