good use of a halfing handwrap monk

[Rog]

i have been expermenting with my monk mojo here is what seems to work for me.note i only use handwraps
1. dps tank total failure.
2. as a second stream tank with insane ac (i can buff to 82) i have found that 5% weighted work best in a fast moving group. if your in solo mode which the monk are super at then maldroit of bone breaking and a bursting handwraps work best the dex dam will bring them to crit with every hit use the backstad halfing dam with crit on a burst quick kills weighted works better in a group due to speed i find i can stun every flenser in the sub before a tank can vorpal him out of five i have found 4 stunned real sweet ratio. in raids like the hound i have found the monk super speed allows them to reach the center and draw aggro before the cleric get in then droping a solid fog keeps that aggro with the ac casting the solid fog is pretty easly dont forget to turn on c.e. after casting fog making the monk more valuable then a intem tank in the hound.dont forget the parry handwraps/finesse if u find them
weakness in my monk built is still red names this type of attack is great and the entire team really is happy to be smacking on a crit hit or stunned but when the red name comes the monk falls short even in ato attack using your finsihing moves you still fall way short greater bane help if you got them but my collection falls short.
what we need is lighting 2 /min 2 greensteel handwraps this will shore up are damage and put handwrap monks on equel footing with front of the line tanks.

mojomuscle

[Gadget2775]

DPS tank a total failure? +3-5 Holy Handwraps backed by a Monks base damage at lvl 16 are awesome. Add Greater Two Weapon fighting, no Off-Hand Strength or To-Hit penalties and you have a DPS beast.

I do agree that Monks could really use GS Handwraps, but the lack of them certainly doesn't completely ruin a Monks output.

Added thought...As much as I want GS HW's; as implemented they'd cause some serious grief. One GS HW that affects both hands with no penalties? Cost to benefit (Basically two Tier 3 weapons for the price of one) and I can understand why the dev's haven't added them yet.

[Rog]

DPS tank a total failure? +3-5 Holy Handwraps backed by a Monks base damage at lvl 16 are awesome. Add Greater Two Weapon fighting, no Off-Hand Strength or To-Hit penalties and you have a DPS beast.

I do agree that Monks could really use GS Handwraps, but the lack of them certainly doesn't completely ruin a Monks output.

Added thought...As much as I want GS HW's as implemented they'd cause some serious grief. One GS HW that affects both hands with no penalties? Cost to benefit (Basically two Tier 3 weapons for the price of one) and I can understand why the dev's haven't added them yet.

if i am not seeing triple diget number on a crit then its not good dps.... at lest this is the kyber standard

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

if i am not seeing triple diget number on a crit then its not good dps.... at lest this is the kyber standard

Consider using your tier 3 ki attacks - those give 2d6 per hit and also an extra 2d6 on a crit - start with a stunning fist then spam a few of those, alternating between elements. Also, even if you're not doing great damage, the fast cooldown on stunning fist means when you're in a group you can stun and then move onto the next mob (kill count isn't everything). When soloing, stunning fist can give you enough ki to alternate between stunning and quivering palm. Consider use of cleave to grab agro early on if you don't have intimidate.

Garth

[Inspire]

Consider using your tier 3 ki attacks - those give 2d6 per hit and also an extra 2d6 on a crit - start with a stunning fist then spam a few of those, alternating between elements. Also, even if you're not doing great damage, the fast cooldown on stunning fist means when you're in a group you can stun and then move onto the next mob (kill count isn't everything). When soloing, stunning fist can give you enough ki to alternate between stunning and quivering palm. Consider use of cleave to grab agro early on if you don't have intimidate.

Garth

Thats what Untouchable does, although most peeps I run with carry W/P to finish the mobs I stun.

[Gadget2775]

if i am not seeing triple diget number on a crit then its not good dps.... at lest this is the kyber standard

Wow. What a limited way to look at the game...

[Rog]

Wow. What a limited way to look at the game...

not the game dps nothing limited about the game talking about comparing monk with front of the line dps not comparing uses of the monk and saying its the only way but when compared to a tank thats crits for 180 to 220 then i was saying we need shored up a bit then. if you ever run with me i complete quest with some of the stragest built party u can think of i believe one must use what they have in the party then again somtimes we fail no big deal.
mojomuscle

[Dracolich]

Well considering our crit mutiplyer is only x2 and at best a 19-20 we will never be crit beasts. How many swings does it take of that greataxe I assume to see those triple digit crit numbers? If you can stun and land 6 attacks all critting and wearing a bloodstone you can hit over 50 points of damage per hit and thats not a bursting handwrap either. Throw in a bursting handwraop of greater bane when /if I find one haha I think it will balance out. Not to mention quivering palm is a nifty ability also.

[nbhs275]

Wow. What a limited way to look at the game...

Simply put, the DPS output of unarmed is FAR FAR FAR behind the averages of all other forms except defensive S&B. TWF and THF on any other melee specced character will far exceed. Do you know why? Because of the composite deficit of both low crit range, and mulitplier. Look at it this way.

A first level monk has an unarmed attack that does 1d8 20/x2......the level one dwarf fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin has a dwarven axe that does 1d10 20/x3. At level 16 that same monk is doing 2d8 19-20/x2 unarmed...That same fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin is doing 2d8 19-20/x3. Right there the monk is far behind. Then add in the fact that all 4 of those classes have some ability to add damage to, or somehow enhance the output of that base weapon that is already far ahead.

Fighters get added str(+3, the same as a monks full sun stance gets...though the stance has a wisdom penelty attached to it), +4 damage from feats, +2 attack from feats, and +4 damage from racial and class enhancments.

Barbarians get up to +10 strength from rage, increased crit range from enhancements, and additional damage from racial enhancments.

Rangers get +2 str and +2 damage, racial enemies which can be as much as +12 damage, and a 10% attack speed increase.

Paladins get +3 damage from spells, +2-8 from divine might, +2 racial damage, and smites that enhances all aspects of the weapon for a handful off attacks per rest.

The monks unarmed damage, is pitiful. So much so, that when kensia is released, a 18 fighter/2 monk will be able to do MORE unarmed damage then a level 20 monk. 1d8+8 18-20/x2 vs the monks 2d10 19-20/x2

[Inspire]

Simply put, the DPS output of unarmed is FAR FAR FAR behind the averages of all other forms except defensive S&B. TWF and THF on any other melee specced character will far exceed. Do you know why? Because of the composite deficit of both low crit range, and mulitplier. Look at it this way.

A first level monk has an unarmed attack that does 1d8 20/x2......the level one dwarf fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin has a dwarven axe that does 1d10 20/x3. At level 16 that same monk is doing 2d8 19-20/x2 unarmed...That same fighter/barbarian/ranger/paladin is doing 2d8 19-20/x3. Right there the monk is far behind. Then add in the fact that all 4 of those classes have some ability to add damage to, or somehow enhance the output of that base weapon that is already far ahead.

Fighters get added str(+3, the same as a monks full sun stance gets...though the stance has a wisdom penelty attached to it), +4 damage from feats, +2 attack from feats, and +4 damage from racial and class enhancments.

Barbarians get up to +10 strength from rage, increased crit range from enhancements, and additional damage from racial enhancments.

Rangers get +2 str and +2 damage, racial enemies which can be as much as +12 damage, and a 10% attack speed increase.

Paladins get +3 damage from spells, +2-8 from divine might, +2 racial damage, and smites that enhances all aspects of the weapon for a handful off attacks per rest.

The monks unarmed damage, is pitiful. So much so, that when kensia is released, a 18 fighter/2 monk will be able to do MORE unarmed damage then a level 20 monk. 1d8+8 18-20/x2 vs the monks 2d10 19-20/x2

While your math is correct, I would say my monk crits more than any of my other toons, and can completly destroy mobs who are vulnerable to critcals better than any other of my DPS toons, without being touched. Note he only crits for around 60-65... ponder that for a while.

[Thrudh]

if i am not seeing triple diget number on a crit then its not good dps.... at lest this is the kyber standard

My barbarian two-hander sees crits in the 200+ range...

My ranger dual-weilding rapiers sees crits in the 70-80 range....

Guess which one actually does more DPS? (Damage per second, not damage per swing)

[Balkas]

My barbarian two-hander sees crits in the 200+ range...

My ranger dual-weilding rapiers sees crits in the 70-80 range....

Guess which one actually does more DPS? (Damage per second, not damage per swing)

My S&B Paladin crits for 400, and I sure as hell know that both your barbarian and ranger do more DPS

[sephiroth1084]

Added thought...As much as I want GS HW's; as implemented they'd cause some serious grief. One GS HW that affects both hands with no penalties? Cost to benefit (Basically two Tier 3 weapons for the price of one) and I can understand why the dev's haven't added them yet.

This is what happens when Turbine decides to introduce an odd mechanic. Why HW were introduced as a single item instead of being able to equip 2 sets I cannot figure out. Nor why they didn't make that changed when they allowed unarmed attacks to be used in conjunction with TWF. One solution for the GS HW would be to make them cost 50% more ingredients. Not double, since you don't have the flexibility of actually wielding 2 GS weapons, but are getting more of a benefit from the one, as you said.

[Aerendil]

This is what happens when Turbine decides to introduce an odd mechanic. Why HW were introduced as a single item instead of being able to equip 2 sets I cannot figure out. Nor why they didn't make that changed when they allowed unarmed attacks to be used in conjunction with TWF. One solution for the GS HW would be to make them cost 50% more ingredients. Not double, since you don't have the flexibility of actually wielding 2 GS weapons, but are getting more of a benefit from the one, as you said.

That's taken directly from PnP stuff too:

"Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes."

Additionally, light weapons and "natural" weapons are always considered to be finessable in PnP rules, hence why you can use Weapon Finesse with unarmed combat.

To put into DDO, though, I'd have thought it would have been easier to treat it was TWF with offhand attacks, but the way it is implemented is technically more accurate to the PnP books than most people realize.

[Gadget2775]

That's taken directly from PnP stuff too:

"Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes."

Additionally, light weapons and "natural" weapons are always considered to be finessable in PnP rules, hence why you can use Weapon Finesse with unarmed combat.

To put into DDO, though, I'd have thought it would have been easier to treat it was TWF with offhand attacks, but the way it is implemented is technically more accurate to the PnP books than most people realize.

Believe the comment was aimed at using one HW for all unarmed strikes instead of having handwraps only apply to one weapon slot. (I.E. Slot one = Holy of Parrying, Slot two = Shocking Burst of Vertigo 6) Because one HW affects both weapon slots GS HW's would in many cases be overpowered. Not that they're more effective, but you'd only have to spend the ingredients for one handwrap to "dual wield' it...In effect granting Two Tier Three GS HWs for the price of one.

[sephiroth1084]

Believe the comment was aimed at using one HW for all unarmed strikes instead of having handwraps only apply to one weapon slot. (I.E. Slot one = Holy of Parrying, Slot two = Shocking Burst of Vertigo 6) Because one HW affects both weapon slots GS HW's would in many cases be overpowered. Not that they're more effective, but you'd only have to spend the ingredients for one handwrap to "dual wield' it...In effect granting Two Tier Three GS HWs for the price of one.

Yup. That was my point.


As for handling monks and their ability, Turbine could have:
-simply given monks more attacks at the reduced BAB they normally would have (which would directly replicate PnP Flurry of Blows and would require little by way of alteration of the DDO coding since that is something have already in TWF)
-given monks handwraps, and allowed 2 to be equipped just like other weapons when they allowed unarmed attacks to work with TWF, if not sooner (by the way, most answers back from WotC state that unarmed strikes do not work in conjunction with TWF)
-introduce greensteel handrwraps...if balance is a concern, then they could up the cost of crafting somewhat (say, GS handwraps require a special 4th essence/focus/whatever for each of their tiers)...bigges tproblem I see with the wraps is that there is no static base damage to increase from, so they might be balanced by having no effect on your normal unarmed damage

[redoubt]

Added thought...As much as I want GS HW's; as implemented they'd cause some serious grief. One GS HW that affects both hands with no penalties? Cost to benefit (Basically two Tier 3 weapons for the price of one) and I can understand why the dev's haven't added them yet.

I disagree. I consider the in-abilty to wear two different handwraps (same as a TWF fighter with two different weapons) to be a liability.

Some think it makes greensteel handwraps better, some think it makes them worse (than other greensteel weapons). Odds are, its pretty balanced and should just be brought into the game.

[Leyoni]

good use of a halfing handwrap monk

As a door stop?