good use of a halfing handwrap monk

[Rog]

this thread is getting good
thnx
mojomuscle

[nbhs275]

A character built for DPS out damaging a toon built for multipurpose use is a no brainer.

A monk built for DPS is an apples to apples comparison, not your comparison.

Combat Expertise has no bearing on damage and in fact hurts your damage by making you miss more, so throw that right out.

Intimidate is easily accomplished by splashing a single fighter or rogue level, there's even badger style to boost your intimidate skill. But again, has no bearing on DPS. So irrelevant to the conversation.

So let's look at the basics of what makes a monk a DPS machine, minimum 17 base DEX, high STR, Great WIS.

So, on a 32 point build monk we're looking at something along the lines of:

16
16
12
8
14
6

That's on a Warforged mind you, dump one level up in to DEX, three in to WIS, and take all three monk WIS enhancements, and give up nothing on my stunning fist DC calculation, and sacrificing nothing but some AP's.

So my STR modifier with a +6 STR item is +6 with full BAB of 16 AND power attack for another 5 damage bonus. Warforged power attack for another 3.

So at 16th level my damage would look like 2d8+30, with no half strength bonus for my off hand. So 10 attacks per round at 2d8+30 19-20/x2. Not including damage bonuses from my elemental strikes, and let's say 5% increase in speed over a tempest ranger.

I don't know about you, but gimped isn't exactly a word I would use here.


EDIT:

And we haven't seen what's in store for monks in the next four levels. I'm expecting grandmaster of the elemental styles, as well as the continued animal paths, then there's the 20th level capstone that gives you an unending supply of Ki.

So, your going to spend 10 stat points, 3 level up points, and 12 AP on wisdom, to get a total of 28? Still Below the "30" you quoted before. Ok, so now when your stunning fist lands, each of your hits is going to be for 2d8+19 x2, 42-70. Still far less then any true DPS class is cappable of. My rangers main hand is 1d8+29 +3d6 on a normal swing(33-55) with an additional 10 against FE(43-65) and all thats before crits. Remember, your not getting x2 PA bonuses. Nor any class abilities that add a constant boost to damage.


Your damage is all completly reliant on the target being stunnable, and your stuns always landing. IF they don't. your looking at a sluggish kill when your hitting for only 21-35. Nevermind any time your fighting an enemies where DPS is necessary, namely red/purple named enemies where your stuns arent going to work. And for that reason, monks are still at the very bottom of the list in DPS capabilities.

OH, and i would like to see how often your getting stunning to land on that WF, when your attack bonus is 19 with PA running.

[hu-flung-pu]

So, your going to spend 10 stat points, 3 level up points, and 12 AP on wisdom, to get a total of 28? Still Below the "30" you quoted before.

Yup, on a race that get's a -2 penalty to WIS.

Ok, so now when your stunning fist lands, each of your hits is going to be for 2d8+19 x2, 42-70. Still far less then any true DPS class is cappable of. My rangers main hand is 1d8+29 +3d6 on a normal swing(33-55) with an additional 10 against FE(43-65) and all thats before crits. Remember, your not getting x2 PA bonuses. Nor any class abilities that add a constant boost to damage.

I already pointed out to you the math for damage, 2d8+30 so a max hit of 46 damage on a non critical.

I'm just going to start off with your baseline here, so I'm taking out your greater bane, and favored enemy damage. You have a 1d8+29, for a maximum of 37.
You NEED either your greater bane damage, or your favored enemy damage, just to compete with my monk. Greater Bane damage, also, isn't included in criticals.

Your damage is all completly reliant on the target being stunnable, and your stuns always landing. IF they don't. your looking at a sluggish kill when your hitting for only 21-35. Nevermind any time your fighting an enemies where DPS is necessary, namely red/purple named enemies where your stuns arent going to work. And for that reason, monks are still at the very bottom of the list in DPS capabilities.

As I pointed out, my DPS just skyrockets through the roof with criticals, your ranger, will most likely critical more often if I don't land a stunning fist. But, them's the breaks, it's like they say in the NFL, "It's why we play the games, instead of let statisticians play them for us."

And my damage is fine, thank you, with 2d8, soon to be 2d10 unarmed damage.

OH, and i would like to see how often your getting stunning to land on that WF, when your attack bonus is 19 with PA running.

My "to-hit's" better then any other, warforged power-attack enhancement using class dual wielding. With a lot more damage output.

What's your off-hand weapon? Another Khopesh? So you cut your damage in half, for 14.5, I'll round up, so you have a +15 damage output, while I make the same number of attacks (faster, mind you.) with less penalty to damage AND to hit. And you call my non stunned kills "sluggish"?

Edit: Green Steel Khopesh ups the ante a bit for a ranger, but like I said, we don't know what is in store for monks on the next four levels, and a monks base damage is the highest one handed damage weapon at level 20. So it will be interesting to see how things play out then.

[QuantumFX]

What's your off-hand weapon? Another Khopesh? So you cut your damage in half, for 14.5, I'll round up, so you have a +15 damage output, while I make the same number of attacks (faster, mind you.) with less penalty to damage AND to hit. And you call my non stunned kills "sluggish"?

The only damage you cut in half for an off-hand weapon is the STR bonus.

[hu-flung-pu]

Once again, I'm corrected, thank you.

So the corrected damage would be, 17.

[nbhs275]

Yup, on a race that get's a -2 penalty to WIS.



I already pointed out to you the math for damage, 2d8+30 so a max hit of 46 damage on a non critical.

how are you getting 30 then? your strength is only a 22. which is going to be 6 damage, PA would be 8, and 5 if your using +5 handwraps. So, like i said 2d8+19. Where are you finding another 30 damage? 8 from a warchanter bard and 3 from?

I'm just going to start off with your baseline here, so I'm taking out your greater bane, and favored enemy damage. You have a 1d8+29, for a maximum of 37.

1d8+29, +3d6 a swing, +2d10 on a crit, and slicing, transmuting, and thats just selfbuffed, VS FE with a bard its 1d8+48. Offhand is only losing 6 damage due to strength.

You NEED either your greater bane damage, or your favored enemy damage, just to compete with my monk. Greater Bane damage, also, isn't included in criticals.


Like i've already pointed out, your build is only doing any competative DPS, when you land a stunning fist. Which like i said, is mighty hard with a low attack bonus like yours. 16 bab +6 strength +5 wpn +4 GH -8PA = 23, and thats only if your standing still, so any time your trying to get a hit down on the run, you drop to a 19. Only solution that you have is to turn PA off. But then of course your crits are only going to be doing 26-52.
As I pointed out, my DPS just skyrockets through the roof with criticals, your ranger, will most likely critical more often if I don't land a stunning fist. But, them's the breaks, it's like they say in the NFL, "It's why we play the games, instead of let statisticians play them for us."

And my damage is fine, thank you, with 2d8, soon to be 2d10 unarmed damage.

OOOOHH, wow, an increase of 2 average damage, let me call the media!

My "to-hit's" better then any other, warforged power-attack enhancement using class dual wielding. With a lot more damage output.

Um, sorry, it isnt. My ranger has a 34 strength on average, gets 16 bab, +1 WF, duel wields +5 weapons, and plenty of GH for another +4. Even with the -8 penelty from PA and -2 from TWF, im at a 28 base, if im standing or moving, and get an additional +2 against FE.

What's your off-hand weapon? Another Khopesh? So you cut your damage in half, for 14.5, I'll round up, so you have a +15 damage output, while I make the same number of attacks (faster, mind you.) with less penalty to damage AND to hit. And you call my non stunned kills "sluggish"?

Offhand weapon is a light pick, 1d6+23 standing. still higher then your fists, and its getting all those bonus dice. And the ranger is still attacking at the same rate. And a far higher to-hit, far faster kills on auto crit(considering that its a min of 120 on a crit, well over 200 against FE)

Edit: Green Steel Khopesh ups the ante a bit for a ranger, but like I said, we don't know what is in store for monks on the next four levels, and a monks base damage is the highest one handed damage weapon at level 20. So it will be interesting to see how things play out then.

Yes, they get the highest base damage, of 2d10+5. WOOOOW. And they get a wopping 19-20/x2 critical. And if they follow your advice, a 22 endgame strength. And no access to greensteel handwraps. Im sorry, i much rather use a rapier or pick thats going to STILL do far more damage on a normal hit, and crit far more often, or FAR harder.

[hu-flung-pu]

BAB fills up the rest of my damage bonus. Since it's an unarmed Monk, it's full BAB. Not the 2/3's BAB. So at level 16, I get another +16 damage. Or screw it, I'll just quote my self, since you don't read.

So my STR modifier with a +6 STR item is +6 with full BAB of 16 AND power attack for another 5 damage bonus. Warforged power attack for another 3.

So at 16th level my damage would look like 2d8+30, with no half strength bonus for my off hand. So 10 attacks per round at 2d8+30 19-20/x2. Not including damage bonuses from my elemental strikes, and let's say 5% increase in speed over a tempest ranger.

And I didn't even include the +5 for an item, since we're now counting enchanted equipment. So technically, 35. But we'll stick with 30 damage modfier.

And if we're including weapon effects, I'll include, my damage bonuses from my master stance strikes, combined with holy burst handwraps of pure good mixed with my pocket paladin and bard. See how this arms race escalates?

And my "low" attack bonus isn't as low as you might hope it was. +8 to hit from my DEX with weapon finesse, and no loss from movement with spring attack. Voila. no penalty to movement.

1d6+23 standing is better the my 2d8+25 to hit with power attack on? Or are you counting critical multipliers here, in which case I'm going to have to ask you to break down how not only your off hand is wielding a green steel light pick while your main hand is swinging a green steel weapon, but also how your off hand provides a +23 to hit. Somethings not adding up, again.

[nbhs275]

BAB fills up the rest of my damage bonus. Since it's an unarmed Monk, it's full BAB. Not the 2/3's BAB. So at level 16, I get another +16 damage. Or screw it, I'll just quote my self, since you don't read.



And I didn't even include the +5 for an item, since we're now counting enchanted equipment. So technically, 35. But we'll stick with 30 damage modfier.

And if we're including weapon effects, I'll include, my damage bonuses from my master stance strikes, combined with holy burst handwraps of pure good mixed with my pocket paladin and bard. See how this arms race escalates?

And my "low" attack bonus isn't as low as you might hope it was. +8 to hit from my DEX with weapon finesse, and no loss from movement with spring attack. Voila. no penalty to movement.

1d6+23 standing is better the my 2d8+25 to hit with power attack on? Or are you counting critical multipliers here, in which case I'm going to have to ask you to break down how not only your off hand is wielding a green steel light pick while your main hand is swinging a green steel weapon, but also how your off hand provides a +23 to hit. Somethings not adding up, again.

You also don't seem to know that greensteel weapons dont cause the draining effect. Or that BaB and strength both apply fully to offhand hit. Which for me alone accounts for a +28, +4 gh, +5 weapon,+1 wf, -10 TWF/PA for +28 tohit.


UM, i dont know about you, but im 95% sure that BASE ATTACK BONUS is only factorying into attack bonus. IT has no effect on damage.

OH, and WF doesnt stack with str, so your looking attack bonus would only increase by 2. Im curious now how your feats would work out, having WF, dodge, mobility, spring attack, power attack, stunning fist, improved crit, toughness, TWF, ITWF, GTWF.

Also, im getting 3d6 elemental damage on every hit, you would be getting 3d6 every 2-3 seconds, though with all those clickies, timers tend to get bogged down.

Hu, you simply havent got the correct numbers to argue against my point.

[rimble]

BAB fills up the rest of my damage bonus. Since it's an unarmed Monk, it's full BAB. Not the 2/3's BAB. So at level 16, I get another +16 damage. Or screw it, I'll just quote my self, since you don't read.

That's so very very wrong.

[hu-flung-pu]

That's so very very wrong.

Yes it is, and I will now have a self imposed month long ban for being a flaming ******.

My apologies nbhs.

[nbhs275]

Yes it is, and I will now have a self imposed month long ban for being a flaming ******.

My apologies nbhs.

it happens