Shield Crafting, In development? Or do I go TWF?

[Alcides]

Comparison with Shroud items isn't really the best way to prove something isn't overpowered...

Thank you for your input Borror0, I would like to point out the following of what you actually just said.

Contrapositive of your statement:
To prove something is overpowered, comparison with Shroud items is really the best way.

[krud]

Comparison with Shroud items isn't really the best way to prove something isn't overpowered...

Are shroud items likely to be nerfed? Are any of those benefits I listed likely to overpower s&b if implemented on shields?

[artvan_delet]

As I read this thread, I think we all agree s/b has real problems. Some want craftable shields others want Turbine to focus on fixing the core issue that twinked gear will not solve. Here are my two questions:

1) Can you fix s/b without nerfing IcyRai, Tempest, etc.? (I think the devs like to avoid nerfing morale problems.)
2) Why cant the devs add crafting to shields AND also fix the main problem?


I have to tell you that I'm skeptical about the devs fixing s/b. There's been no shield attention in, well, forever. TWF is still king. Pally and Fighter 'love' mods have been underwhelming. I'd rather get something than nothing again.

3) Have the devs indicated they acknowledge a s/b problem?

Thanks.

[Borror0]

3) Have the devs indicated they acknowledge a s/b problem?

This is the close we have gotten to this. That was on 05-09-2008.

Paladins are primarily a defensive support class, and under many circumstances can fill that role quite well.

Yes, there are some serious issues facing defensive classes in high end content (especially on Elite) which primarily negatively affect the Paladin and Fighter. (See Borror0's excellent analysis of the issues for more information.) The changes to Paladins in Module 7 are also not meant to be a comprehensive list of changes to the class - there will be more things coming, and we do recognize that there are many additional avenues for us to explore to make them a more desirable class.

[Invalid_50]

Maybe instead of giving s&b more damage, do something else with it that would be attractive to a party to the point they would want a Sword and Board in the group for other reasons. Perhaps an investment of feats and enhancements to acquire a cleave like effect with the shield that has a chance to deliver a short duration stun? Damage mitigation for the whole party, or focused for the person delivering the shield bash. Obviously there would be prereqs so that true sword and shield users have advantages with these abilities.

Just seems we shouldnt go too much father in the dps route with any class, damage output is kinda scary right now. The more damage we do, the more hit points the bad guys will have.

[Turial]

....
Just seems we shouldnt go too much father in the dps route with any class, damage output is kinda scary right now. The more damage we do, the more hit points the bad guys will have.

The bad guys only really get more hit points when the top DPS setups get an additional source of added damage. Because S&B is not the top DPS option it is less likely that mobs would get a boost to hp if S&B got a moderate increase in DPS to bridge the DPS gap between TWF and everything else.

[Turial]

As I read this thread, I think we all agree s/b has real problems. Some want craftable shields others want Turbine to focus on fixing the core issue that twinked gear will not solve. Here are my two questions:

1) Can you fix s/b without nerfing IcyRai, Tempest, etc.? (I think the devs like to avoid nerfing morale problems.) It would be possible but are the problems caused by that fix going to be worse in the longrun then a change to IR and Tempest now. I look at it like treating a limb that is suffereing from gangrene.....you maybe able to prform revascularization to save the limb but you risk infecting more of the body. Amputation would get rid of it right away.
2) Why cant the devs add crafting to shields AND also fix the main problem?
All depends on what type of shield crafting they would come up with.

I have to tell you that I'm skeptical about the devs fixing s/b. There's been no shield attention in, well, forever. TWF is still king. Pally and Fighter 'love' mods have been underwhelming. I'd rather get something than nothing again.

3) Have the devs indicated they acknowledge a s/b problem? yep, just like they acknowledged problems with a few other issues - ranged ROA, Critical rage, etc.

Thanks.

In red.

[Invalid_50]

I see your point Turial. I just think more damage added to any style of combat potentially opens the door to more hit points. After all, wouldnt the extra damage be calculated into raids and quests just like any other potential damage when the designers decide hit point numbers?

It does seem like a small dps boost would be helpful regardless, but how much will it really help all by itself? You really dont think something along the lines of improved shield bashing techniques with stun or other effects that mitigate incoming melee damage to the user and his party could be part of the solution?

Thanks for the reply by the way

[William_the_Bat]

I don't think more damage for S&B is the way to go. I do think more AC for S&B is. Face it, your shield caps out in AC at level 8. At level 8, your S&B types are the survivability kings, sacrificing DoT for survivability. This is one of the reasons back when DDO launched, everyone thought Paladins were uber. Fast forward a few levels, and your TWF types are gaining AC at an alarming rate, and your S&B types are not.

Again, the whole point of using a shield is to have higher AC. Don't make it do more damage. Do let shields have higher AC. And please don't make shield users wait until level 20 to get it.

[Turial]

I see your point Turial. I just think more damage added to any style of combat potentially opens the door to more hit points. After all, wouldnt the extra damage be calculated into raids and quests just like any other potential damage when the designers decide hit point numbers? They might be but it would likely fall under a weighted formula. Example...there are a lot of all class X shroud runs that get run. The logic of the dev's behind DPS likely follows a similar thought process where the typical raid group contains 2-3 clerics, 1-2 casters, and the rest DPS. To figure the maximum DPS and thus the amount of HP that would give the ideal group a challenge they would simply put in the arch-types that deals the most DPS (currently Rangers, barbs, and rogues). Because S&B DPS is several steps behind the top DPS it is less likely they would be weighted as highly as the classes listed above for determining hp. Example: do you look at the quite guy in the corner reading a book or the crazy looking guy at the bar counter who is banging the knife against the counter and saying hes going to kill the next person through the door.

It does seem like a small dps boost would be helpful regardless, but how much will it really help all by itself? You really dont think something along the lines of improved shield bashing techniques with stun or other effects that mitigate incoming melee damage to the user and his party could be part of the solution? That is the million plat question....How much of a boost will make the playstyle viable and have happy players, without toppeling everything like a house of cards (critical rage is an example of boosting to much and toppeling everything, and ranged combat is an example of a nerf gone to far).

Improved shield bashing which results in stunning the opponent would require using something other then the established STR mod for determing the DC of the save as many high AC shield users have a much higher dex then str. That seems to be an odd deviation from pnp.

Mitigating incoming damage is a great thing and everyone should be thinking about it constantly as it is one of the things that I believe separates amazing players from good players. That being said.....if it takes player one x period of time to kill a mob and player two y period of time to kill a mob, where y is longer then x by factor z, and the only difference between player 1 and 2 is TWF or S&B, then the defensive benafit of the shield needs to be equal to or greater then factor z....and thats the simple equation. The defensive benafit needs to grow greater then factor z when you encounter multiple mobs.

Defense is a very delicate balance that must be walked because Turbine does not want an unkillable player. Oddlived has soloed VOD....he used a lot of resouces but if defense was set a little more in his favor then the resource consumption would have been far less. That was in a raid...regular quests are far easier to unbalance with unkillables.

Thanks for the reply by the way

In red.

[sephiroth1084]

Borro, I really think you completely missed my point. The bulk of my post was showing that gear is a HUGE part of why S&B is lagging behind Dex-based characters in the AC department, and is a (smaller) portion of why they are lagging behind in the DPS region as well. And not just hard to attain raid gear. COMMON gear as well. +6 stat items, +2 tomes, tier 1 and 2 Shroud weapons, +6 Armor Bracers, [now] Icy Raiments.

NOT addressing the equipment issue at all would be/has been ridiculous. Yes, I feel that S&B needs feats and enhancements added to the game to help it out and make it more interesting, more alluring. No argument there, but you acknowledged that Turbine is going to always make some assumption about gear possessed, so why, then, discount applying some amount of gear to the problem? When seeking solutions, it may help to keep in mind the governing entity's habits and play to them.

In any case, GS crafting of shields would do NOTHING to hurt S&B, and I seriously doubt it would unbalance the game, since that can of worms has already been popped open. That, however, is not all I am proposing--start making armor that drops with a high than standard AC bonus as somewhat more common items. It may tread on the feat of the Dragonscale armor or the like, but that is armor from long ago, and is not phenomenal compared with some of the newer gear as it stands.

But LOOK at some of the stuff Dex-based AC characters are acquiring their AC! Not from raids, but from random loot tables, or farmable chests. When was the last time you can recall pulling a piece of armor or shield that actually contributed to your armor class (that is, raised it)? Maybe you didn't have the cash or luck at level 8 to acquire a +5 mithral stuff, but that was the last time for many, and the potential for everyone is real. When was the last time you pulled a shield or armor out of random or end loot that was worth using?

You have mentioned here and there that you don't want S&B to become too feat or AP intensive, because that will limit the offensive capabilities of the style even further. So, then, if not through several feats or enhancements, and not through gear is this to be done?

I think feats or enhancements that: add to a shield's AC, that add some passive DR, that add to heavy armored AC (to give an excuse for wearing non-mithral), that grant in-chain shield bash attacks and/or make shield bashing useful/not suck, chance of blocking an incoming attack (as per one of Aesop's suggestions), something like Shield Ward, or something like the blocking special ability of the Knight class (PHB II) are all solid ideas for the game, and can help a lot. However, the gap in AC and DPS is too great to completely discount gear.

To clarify (again), I am not proposing JUST implementing GS crafting, and definitely NOT suggesting the addition of raid-loot shields or armor, but rather of altering the way shields above level 8 are generated. I want to see some +5 mithral tower shields with +5 Protect, or Superior Devotion 6, or +3 Resistance, or Greater Resist Energy X, or Heavy Fort, or Greater False Life, or Deathblock, or Proof Against Poison, or...whatever, instead of some really useless garbage. Or maybe add more items that let you raise the Max Dex of your armor...maybe a new ritual, to allow S&B to participate in the stat-ballooning (and AC ballooning) game.

Look in a DMG at starting wealth for a lvl 20 character, see what sort of gear you can acquire and in what amounts, then look at where DDO stands. Sure, the 2 systems do not correlate directly, but in the case of AC S&B is still basically being limited to what a 20th level character would be able to obtain, while TWFers and their ilk are not.

GEAR is, was, and forever will be inextricably tied up with the issue, and there is no avoiding that fact.

[Turial]

.....
To clarify (again), I am not proposing JUST implementing GS crafting, and definitely NOT suggesting the addition of raid-loot shields or armor, but rather of altering the way shields above level 8 are generated. I want to see some +5 mithral tower shields with +5 Protect, or Superior Devotion 6, or +3 Resistance, or Greater Resist Energy X, or Heavy Fort, or Greater False Life, or Deathblock, or Proof Against Poison, or...whatever, instead of some really useless garbage. .....

It would be a good idea to change the + value for shield add ons so that some of these things could drop sooner. Currently they will not drop until level 20 while you can get +5 burst of banes at this point. It would be a very good starting point to making a shield a worthwhile investment for characters.

By your logic above, I didn't quote you on it, the dex builds are gaining more from the random loot tables then the S&B because, making the jump here, of the IR giving dex/wis builds something the S&B can't duplicate, additional dodge without restricting AC from dex or wis.

Lets face it Wis bonus to AC and the IR are the issue at the heart of the AC disparity. Adjust them a little and the gap goes down. After that the ability for shields to get better mods sooner becomes a tipping point that may go in favor of S&B or it may not and that drives the types of choices players like better then the current setup.

[sephiroth1084]

By your logic above, I didn't quote you on it, the dex builds are gaining more from the random loot tables then the S&B because, making the jump here, of the IR giving dex/wis builds something the S&B can't duplicate, additional dodge without restricting AC from dex or wis.

Lets face it Wis bonus to AC and the IR are the issue at the heart of the AC disparity. Adjust them a little and the gap goes down. After that the ability for shields to get better mods sooner becomes a tipping point that may go in favor of S&B or it may not and that drives the types of choices players like better then the current setup.

Well, Dex-based rangers pre-Monk we getting comparable AC to S&B guys. Monk and the IR tipped the scales, but we were still seeing characters with comparable AC, who had more DPS, and who had to invest less to attain that AC and DPS. The Wis to AC accounts for, what, 4-10 points of AC? Look at the disparity in AC gained after level 9 between S&B and Dex guys. That goes down a bit if Wis is dropped from the equation, but there is still a gap. And that isn't addressing DPS at all.

Doing something about it sounds like a good idea, but what? Monk splash is something of a 3.5 staple, though, making adjustments based upon how it interacts with the game may be a good idea. As it stands, the devs could not have intended for monk to be primarily a 1-3 level splash class: I definitely see many more characters with a splash of monk than with monk as their primary class.

[DrAiAj]

Two weapon fighting requires 3 feats for the full bonus. Currently the shield feats you have a two shield masteries for improving damage mitigation while blocking and one to let you keep your bonus while shield bashing. I'd rather have a shield mastery feat that lets you keep your mitigation while regularly attacking and an extra 50% while blocking if you had the other two mitigation feats.

Frankly, with the inflated damage NPCs inflct, improved mitigation on shields with a new feat would be more in line with the feats for two weapon fighting giving more swings than it does in PnP.

[sephiroth1084]

Oh, to add to my list, something that allows a character to add a second stat to their S&B AC would also be a welcome addition, such as Divine Shield (Cha) or the Deepwarden PrC (Con). In fact, doing something along those lines for Paladins and Fighters respectively may go a long way toward bridging the gap.

[Chaos000]

What about a named +5 heavy steel shield with +6 to all stats?

it would be great! 15% spell chance failure so even with the 7-fingered gloves you still end up with a 5% spell failure, (so elf maybe to mitigate that) tower shield users would have to choose between the loss of AC, sword and board users (and clerics!!!) are the only one's who would actually benefit the most and would have a whole lot of slots opened up for other items, monk splashes can't benefit from their AC bonus with it equipped, two weapon fighters must then choose between staying with the faster attack from two weapon fighting...

[Jeffywan]

What about a named +5 heavy steel shield with +6 to all stats?

it would be great! 15% spell chance failure so even with the 7-fingered gloves you still end up with a 5% spell failure, (so elf maybe to mitigate that) tower shield users would have to choose between the loss of AC, sword and board users (and clerics!!!) are the only one's who would actually benefit the most and would have a whole lot of slots opened up for other items, monk splashes can't benefit from their AC bonus with it equipped, two weapon fighters must then choose between staying with the faster attack from two weapon fighting...

Okay I think this is an example of balancing through equipment. I would agree that this type of balancing through equipment would just create other issues and hinder the casual gammer. So I can see why Borror0 would be against such solutions. I also understand that it is seen as the thread has developed this isn't seen as a small issue by many players and there is a general disagreement of what it would take to fix the issues. Perhaps that is why the Devs have not mentioned much on the topic because they are still deliberating the best course of action to fix the balance issue which has been discusses as more of an art then a science (although not phrased like that).

Where I personaly differ with the balance by loot idea is what is considered balancing by loot and proper scaling of loot. When the best shield for a casual gamer is likely the one they got at level 8 and they are level 16 I do not think that shields are scaled properly. I am of the opinion that most shields with a level requirment over 12 should be +4 or +5 shields with bonuses equivelent to at minimum eldrich runes, I would like to see some tempest rune ablities on shields. Personaly I do not think that will solve the entire S&B issue nor do I think that needs to occur through crafting, but if I could have a few flavors of shield that were swapable based on the situation I think that would solve an issue with scaling of shields that exist.

The best way to solve a balance issue is not with a big change which might toss the scale back in another direction but with carefully thoughtout adjustments in each of the catagories that contribute and as you fix each of those you bring more balance without possibly swaying to far to another side. It is the fine touches that I think make balance so tricky, anyone can tip it back in the other direction and continue to inflate things until balance is achieved but every archtype looks the same.

[sephiroth1084]

Okay I think this is an example of balancing through equipment. I would agree that this type of balancing through equipment would just create other issues and hinder the casual gammer. So I can see why Borror0 would be against such solutions. I also understand that it is seen as the thread has developed this isn't seen as a small issue by many players and there is a general disagreement of what it would take to fix the issues. Perhaps that is why the Devs have not mentioned much on the topic because they are still deliberating the best course of action to fix the balance issue which has been discusses as more of an art then a science (although not phrased like that).

Where I personaly differ with the balance by loot idea is what is considered balancing by loot and proper scaling of loot. When the best shield for a casual gamer is likely the one they got at level 8 and they are level 16 I do not think that shields are scaled properly. I am of the opinion that most shields with a level requirment over 12 should be +4 or +5 shields with bonuses equivelent to at minimum eldrich runes, I would like to see some tempest rune ablities on shields. Personaly I do not think that will solve the entire S&B issue nor do I think that needs to occur through crafting, but if I could have a few flavors of shield that were swapable based on the situation I think that would solve an issue with scaling of shields that exist.

The best way to solve a balance issue is not with a big change which might toss the scale back in another direction but with carefully thoughtout adjustments in each of the catagories that contribute and as you fix each of those you bring more balance without possibly swaying to far to another side. It is the fine touches that I think make balance so tricky, anyone can tip it back in the other direction and continue to inflate things until balance is achieved but every archtype looks the same.

This, I think, is certainly a step in the right direction, though I think that raising the bar for either the +5 enhancement cap (unlikely since it is tied directly to PnP rules) or maybe start dropping shields composed of some special material that have a higher base AC by 1-4 points might be a decent idea.

Oh, and Chaos, while the shield you propose would be attractive, it doesn't do anything to solve anything...it's just a nice, useful item that saves slots.

[mediocresurgeon]

Two Weapon Fighting, by nature of having twice the amount of normal weaponry, should have a greater offensive power than Sword and Board. By nature of equiping a defensive item, Sword and Board should be better able to resist the offensive attacks of an enemy than other styles, such as TWF/THF.

Please note that because in the 3.5 rule system, if the enemy attack bonus ever reaches 19 points above your armor class, your armor class is irrelivant. Because of this, wearing a shield only will ever matter if you have a sizeable armor class already. Therefore, a shield will only be the crowning peice of armor class equipment, never the main part.

I'm beginning to suspect that many of use forget that shields are far superior to wielding two weapons in certain situations--mainly where the only thing that matters is defense, such as tanking the raid boss in the Hound of Xoriat.

Fact: Shields do not help in slaying magic-users, and never have. Two Weapon Fighting dramatically decreases the survivability of enemy magic-users.

I'm of the frame of mind that the ultimate goal of any character is to get better equipment. The better a character is at this, the quicker they will get to the next chest, the more loot they will generate, the better the odds are they will find something useful. Is the best Shroud group the one where nobody dies because they are immune to enemy attacks? No. The best Shroud group is the one that gets to the end the quickest, even if it means people die. Therefor, the best characters are the ones with the greatest possible offense.

Where exactly does a shield fit into this?

Shields (theoretically, at least) reduce the amount of damage its user takes. Less damage dealt to a character means fewer resources spent on healing, which means less time spent resting, fewer mid-dungeon trips back to the tavern, etc. Shields make sense if you need to protect yourself in order to complete the loot run, but otherwise do not directly contribute to the player getting loot faster.

Equipping a second weapon can also reduce the amount of damage its user takes. If an enemy dies sooner, it swings fewer times, casts fewer spells, and soforth. Equipping a second weapon can mean fewer resources spent on healing. Because of the enhanced offensive capabilities of using two weapons instead of only one, using two weapons directly contributes to the player getting loot faster.

Shields, as implimented so far, are simply not a viable choice because they do not enhance the killing power of the player. Experience shows that they also add little protection to players, because it is a better defensive choice to kill the monsters which are attacking rather than endure their attacks with a shield.


The Problem:
Balancing the effectiveness of a shield against the effectiveness of dual-wielding weapons while in the pursuit of quick treasure.

A Note:
Using Two Weapon Fighting with any sort of skill requires minumum ability scores and feats. Using a shield requires neither. By virtue of two weapon fighting being more difficult to obtain, it should be the more generally effective fighting style.

My Solution:

Two Weapon Fighting feats currently require very high dexterity. However, these feats still require less dexterity than their pen-and-paper counterparts. Increasing the dexterity requirements for these feats ensures fewer stats available for other ability scores (most notably strength, the key ability score for dealing damage in melee). While this will not have any decrease in the killing power of finesse builds with constitution-damaging weapons (of which there are plenty), it will dramatically decrease the viablility of strength-based two weapon fighters (such as barbarians and some fighters/paladins).

Two Weapon Fighting is effective as a defensive measure because it becomes easier to kill the enemy before the enemy kills the player. Slowing down the rate of attack of the Two Weapon Fighting chain would give the enemy more attacks before dying, thus increasing the need for defensive equipment such as shields.

Adding offensive effects to shields which enhance the primary weapon of the character will increase the offensive output of the character. For instance, one might find a randomly-generated +5 Heavy Shield of [insert suffix here], which adds an additional +1d6 shocking damage to the character's attacks. (This is not to be confused with the already-existing shield which is Flaming but only adds this fire damage to shield bashes.) This will increase the offensive capability of sword-and-board characters and help them to get treasure quicker.

Many special attacks used by monsters fail to land on a player if that player is actively blocking. Removing the special attack immunity from active blockers who do not have a shield equipped would promote shield use in active blocking maneuvers.

Shields, if worn only for armor class, are useless for characters who have a total AC less than 2 + [insert enemy attack bonus here]. Adding an additional non-AC defensive bonus for having a shield equipped (such as damage reduction, a bonus against flash-burst spells like fireball/cold of cold, or something more creative) would promote having a shield equipped.

[Turial]

......
My Solution:

Two Weapon Fighting feats currently require very high dexterity. However, these feats still require less dexterity than their pen-and-paper counterparts. Increasing the dexterity requirements for these feats ensures fewer stats available for other ability scores (most notably strength, the key ability score for dealing damage in melee). While this will not have any decrease in the killing power of finesse builds with constitution-damaging weapons (of which there are plenty), it will dramatically decrease the viablility of strength-based two weapon fighters (such as barbarians and some fighters/paladins).
......

Changing the feat requirements would be a less good option. Strength based TWF comes more from rangers then from other classes and the change to the feats would not affect rangers. Then there is the large number of potential players who designed their characters to get TWF all the sudden loosing feats because they didn't meet prerecs. That would be worse then nerfing monk splashes and the IR.