Shield Crafting, In development? Or do I go TWF?

[Borror0]

Compared to all the other crafting, which you are a big fan of.

Given the expectations other have for it, yeah, it would be even worse than what crafting possibly could be.

[Talcyndl]

Given the expectations other have for it, yeah, it would be even worse than what crafting possibly could be.

Not sure why. Just assume it would allow the same basic effects currently on Shroud items or weapons. Why would allowing those on a Shield be "even worse" than what we have now?

Beyond, of course, your view that any [more] crafting is [more] unbalancing.

[EazyWeazy]

I want a WoP shield and I want Shield mastery feats to act as weapon specialization with additional bonus to hit!!!

[Turial]

I'm of the idea that they should be able to pick up a small bonus with minimal AP and no prereqs, however if they choose they can get a larger bonus if they focus on it, and get the feats and spend the AP.

It could be a +2/+4/+8 (non-stacking) bonus for 2/4/6 AP and imp shield bash feat as prereq for the last two tier.

or +1/+2/+4/+8 for 1/2/3/4AP and imp shield bash feat for the last two tier. (or if you prefer stacking bonus then +1/+2/+3/+4)

Not much of an AP cost to get the same bonus you suggested, but the option to get higher if you want to focus.

It does become expensive when you think that most S&B players are spending AP on armor mastery. If they aren't then they need to think about why they are holding a shield, unless they are some sort of high dex outfit wearing shield user.

[Ralmeth]

Just wanted to throw my two cents in, as my main is S&B, and I'm leveling up a TWF:

Shield Crafting:
This seems likes a good way to give anyone going S&B to get the extra crafting benefits that a TWF would get by building two greensteel weapons. Why not add shields into the Shroud mix?

S&B vs. TWF:
One thing to bear in mind is that TWF has 3 good feats that you can put into it, Rangers getting for free, in order to make your TWF fighting style better. S&B has only 2 very marginal feats, and I suggest that the shield mastery feats are only helpful for an intimitank who is throwing out intimidate and then shield blocking. If you are a typical Paladin, Cleric, etc that is fighting S&B you have no feat options available to you. None, as the shield mastery feats are practically useless to you. So some S&B feats and/or enhancements would be really helpful.

Does anyone have any ideas on some specific S&B feats or enhancements that would make sense?

[Borror0]

Why would allowing those on a Shield be "even worse" than what we have now?

Fixing an issue with gear you have to grind for is a punishment compared to fixing it by feats, enhancements or other modifications/additions pf the kind.

New gear should be added to keep the players' interest. Not to balance.

[Varr]

For me the key to this post is his rogue body. Any rogue that fights with a sword and board should get a serious beat down my his trainer next time he goes to level. Like that little rogue kobald drop kicking ya for ever thinking about fighting in any fashion than two weapons. I love different builds and ways to run said builds.........but consistanly running a rogue not in two weapon fighting mode, I cant get my head around it once you clear level 9 and can take improved two weapon fighting. Levels 1-6 or so make total sence to me, as your rogue grows into his two weapon fighting dynamic.

[Turial]

Offhand shield bashes in the attack sequence (maybe as 'hooks')

The monk thing? Limit the wis bonus based on monk levels (or percentage like the sorcs SP bonus) or make you have to be centered to get it.

Would be the way to go. In pnp you can use your shield as an off-hand weapon with additional attacks occuring as you take the two-weapon fighting feats.

All it would require is some animation (the killer) and a toggle that says: On - Allow off hand attacks with shield, Off - Do not allows off hand attacks with shield.

So with out TWF a S&B player would get a single hook with the shield, I would imagine have it be the lead attack, the shield swings and then the 5 attacks with the weapon.

They could then allow WF, WS, and IC lines to work with shields. That would improve shield bash a bit and add to S&B DPS. It might also curtail nicely into an AC build because they may have enough dex to pick up the TWF feats due to trying to max out mithral and armor mastery.

[tc12]

Weapons are weapons. Once you allow one, you're stuck to accept the another one going in the other hand. If you don't you severely punish TWF characters in comparison to THF characters as they not only have to find two weapons but they get cut in their DPS output.

For shields, it's different.

I'm not following your reasoning here Borr. Weapon crafting means you need to allow the for wielding 2 crafted weapons. So 2 uber weapons is ok.

Now we have armor crafting, and ideally those bonuses should have been mostly defensive in nature -- some are and some aren't. But it seems to me if you forgo the extra offense of a second weapon for a shield, you should be able to gain a second set of defensive bonuses. The shield benefits to defense should mirror the crafted 2nd weapon benefits seen by 2wf'ers. Otherwise everyone's encouraged to go 2wf which has been the unintentional (or un-pnp dnd at least) outcome.

Now note I did say defensive bonuses while really the implemented crafted armor bonuses aren't really all strictly defensive. I'd like to see shield crafting have defensive benefits which even if present on your armor STACK. Bonuses to dodge/insight or increased DR (not just blocking DR) would be the 2 that could really make a shield worth using.

But again, I'm not seeing why equiping a shield shouldn't get you powerful defensive effects from crafting when equip'ing a weapon sure does offensively.

TC

PS I think the Monk splash solution is to limit AC bonus from WIS to 1/2 your monk levels or so, or even 1/1. The intended output being that full monks are essentially unpenalized -- I don't know how much WIS most monks really target -- while splashers get a more modest (and many would say appropriate) boost. I mean even at 1:1, splashing 2 levels of Monk to get 2 AC, evasion and 2 feats seems plenty generous, don't ya think?

[Alcides]

Sorry, but giving paladins as much DPS per swing as rangers against their favored enemy isn't my version of "balanced".

Especially when rangers are supposed to be a much more DPS-centric class than paladins.

This is a thread about S&B vs TWF it has nothing to do with my stance on Divine Might. So stay on topic.

[Deathseeker]

Fixing an issue with gear you have to grind for is a punishment compared to fixing it by feats, enhancements or other modifications/additions pf the kind.

New gear should be added to keep the players' interest. Not to balance.

Agree in principle if this were a discussion before Greensteel weapons existed, but now that they are in place, not having some of those options on a shield make the imbalance between TWF and S&B even worse. At a minimum, give me the +4 insight AC bonus on a crafted shield. At least then I stay on an even playing field with TWF. As it stands, TWF gets to have the +4 bonus in one hand and something else in another.

I agree balancing shouldn't be done through gear. But when the imbalance was partly created by the gear crafting, at least level the playing field.

Let me have my +4 Insight bonus and +4 Dodge bonus on a shield, and I'll go show all those pajama wearing TWF monk splashed supertanks what a real AC tank can do!

[Borror0]

Agree in principle if this were a discussion before Greensteel weapons existed, but now that they are in place, not having some of those options on a shield make the imbalance between TWF and S&B even worse.

That's totally false.

Being weaker is what makes S&B weaker. You make them not weaker and they are not weaker anymore. How to achieve this goal is totally up to the developer.

I agree balancing shouldn't be done through gear. But when the imbalance was partly created by the gear crafting, at least level the playing field.

Really? What piece of gear caused the problem?

Green Steel equipment is partly to blame for that, but none of it can be solved through addition of Green Steel shields.

+4 Dodge bonus on a shield

This would be a terrible idea.

[Alcides]

Weapons are weapons. Once you allow one, you're stuck to accept the another one going in the other hand. If you don't you severely punish TWF characters in comparison to THF characters as they not only have to find two weapons but they get cut in their DPS output.

For shields, it's different.

So it's okay to punish a TWF build by virtue of being a two weapon fighting build? Tell me how that's fair. If someone builds a character in a certain way that's not a reason to punish them. If it's in the game it is fair game to be utilized PERIOD. If someone min maxes a character around some mechanic to best utilize said mechanic they should not be punished, otherwise you might as well ask everyone who's playing DDO to stop playing.

Crafting two weapons and crafting a weapon and a shield is not much different. When crafting two weapons a character has more access to effects that are not available on random items.

By itemize, I am assuming you mean gearing up?

Yep, try gearing a paladin intimitank that can keep zeal going for 30 minutes. It's not easy and requires a lot of items.

Then, why would you want to be stuck grinding for more gear if it's already hard to equip a S&B character?

Because I would like to have the ability to make a shield with some of the modifiers that you could potentially get on a shroud weapon/item. And what else do you do with a capped toon but grind for gear for that toon or other toons anyway?

Except that is a very bad idea in itself.

You clearly don't understand PR. It is in the best interests of any company that develops MMO software for revenue to not alienate it's player base.

If 50% of your population uses an icy raiment and 5% uses S&B. Nerfing the icy raiment is going to make more people angry than if you just increase the average AC of S&B instead. Not to mention by nerfing an item you are basically reneging on an offer you gave to your player base in the first place, which shows that you are two faced.

[Jeffywan]

For me the key to this post is his rogue body. Any rogue that fights with a sword and board should get a serious beat down my his trainer next time he goes to level. Like that little rogue kobald drop kicking ya for ever thinking about fighting in any fashion than two weapons. I love different builds and ways to run said builds.........but consistanly running a rogue not in two weapon fighting mode, I cant get my head around it once you clear level 9 and can take improved two weapon fighting. Levels 1-6 or so make total sence to me, as your rogue grows into his two weapon fighting dynamic.

I am a halfling rouge with Dragonmarks for healing, I am sneaky and assasinate but also jump in and flank with high sneak attack DPS, which at times gets an enimes attention or puts me in range of an arc attack, when this occurs I back out and heal myself and then reenter. High AC means I backout less and can continue my DPS without draining healing resources. My rouge trainer foucsed on survivablity (a dead rouge is a useless rouge) and S/B used to be the best way to survive. Now it is looking like TWF is.
I just don't like feeling as if there is only one effective style and I need to do what everyone else is-- I like D&D and the feats because it means I as a rouge am slightly different and can be effective using different tactics. It just seems weird for better defense I should switch to TWF rather then S/B.

[Deathseeker]

That's totally false.

Being weaker is what makes S&B weaker. You make them not weaker and they are not weaker anymore. How to achieve this goal is totally up to the developer.

I didnt follow this. I'm not trying to be a smartXXX as I appreciate your views on lots of stuff. I mean I literally didnt get your meaning on this one.

Really? What piece of gear caused the problem?

Well, Icey raiments, +4 Insight bonus on weapons, and chattering ring not stacking with dragontouched armor would be my examples.

Let me ask a different way. Do you believe, wearing nothing but +1 gear but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced? I believe, if you don't involve a monk splash, they are, as the S&B can block and attain AC a TWF can't. It's the additional of all of the above gear that starts making things a mess (and the monk AC splash) as AC becomes a TWF advantage instead of a S&B advantage. Its not completely gear caused, but the gear is certainly making it worse.

Since they aren't about to get rid of all the gear, at least making other items for S&B folk would help...

[Borror0]

I mean I literally didnt get your meaning on this one.

Sorry, I recognize it can be a bit weird to read.

Basically, the point is that S&B is weaker. Period. That can be addressed by making them stronger. The way it is achieve is totally left to the developers of the game to choose from. Whether it's gear, feats, enhancements or core changes to S&B to make it better. All up to them.

Well, Icey raiments, +4 Insight bonus on weapons, and chattering ring not stacking with dragontouched armor would be my examples.

Icy Raiments are not crafted gear, which was that you talked about in our previous post. Thus, it' a completely different topic. But, if you want to know, the right approach to that is to nerf it. It shouldn't have existed in the first place. It puts TWF higher than it should be and makes it harder for everyone to achieve good AC.

As for dragontouched armor's Dodge bonus not stacking, that was a good move to try to slow down the AC inflation beyond insane levels. It's not perfect. There are flaws to it, obviously, but it's still better than it would have been to let it stack.

Do you believe, wearing nothing but +1 gear but with all available enhancements and feats, that a TWF and S&B are balanced?

Depends.

If you mean at lower levels, no, as S&B just pwns both THF and TWF.

If you mean at higher levels, no, as TWF pwns THF and double pwns S&B as it cannot achieve significant AC due to a lack of gear.

Its not completely gear caused, but the gear is certainly making it worse.

The only guilty on the gear side are the IR.

[bobbryan2]

They could just bring back the alacrity feat they nixed in mod 3.

10% attack speed bonus to someone using one weapon. At the time it was deemed overpowered because no one in their right mind wouldn't be S&B.

[krud]

I just don't like feeling as if there is only one effective style and I need to do what everyone else is-- I like D&D and the feats because it means I as a rouge am slightly different and can be effective using different tactics. It just seems weird for better defense I should switch to TWF rather then S/B.

same here. I had a high AC tactics ftr/rog who went S&B for the longest time, but recently sitched over to TWF. I am finding out that even with only the first TWF feat he does much better dps, and the lower AC doesn't seem to matter much. I really wanted to stay S&B, but the benefits vastly outweighed any cost. No good reason to stay S&B. Now all I need is that +3 dex tome to get the rest of the TWF feats.

[Borror0]

So it's okay to punish a TWF build by virtue of being a two weapon fighting build? Tell me how that's fair.

It is not punishing them, but simply that there is nothing we can do about it.

If Turbine adds the possibility to craft the weapon you want, that problem will arise. A two-handed fighting character will craft his own. Then, a two-weapon fighting character will craft his own. Now, if Turbine sets a limit of only one crafted weapon equipped at the time, it severely punishes the two-weapon fighter in comparison to the two-handed fighting character.

Turbine are thus stuck at allowing TWF to wield the item. It's inherent to the design of TWF unless they code it so wielding one one-handed weapon in your main hand will also add a copy of the same weapon in your off-hand. However, that is a totally different topic.

Crafting two weapons and crafting a weapon and a shield is not much different.

They are different.

Crafting two weapons, as mentioned above, cannot be prevented. Or at least should not be prevented for as long as you care of the balance between THF and TWF. However, the balance between TWF and S&B can be maintained without the existence of crafting.

Because I would like to have the ability to make a shield with some of the modifiers that you could potentially get on a shroud weapon/item.

"Because I want to" isn't a valid argument and only makes you look self-centered.

And what else do you do with a capped toon but grind for gear for that toon or other toons anyway?

You are misunderstanding the issue of you see it this way.

There is nothnig with rewarding playing a lot. It's a question of how big that reward should be.

You clearly don't understand PR. It is in the best interests of any company that develops MMO software for revenue to not alienate it's player base.

It is also in the best interest of a MMO company to produce a well-developed game.

It's also a debate of whether or not players are going to leave over the nerf of an item. Most aren't.

Not to mention by nerfing an item you are basically reneging on an offer you gave to your player base in the first place, which shows that you are two faced.

...or that you are capable of admitting you messed up in the first place and that you put your game before your ego.

Plus, it would be to the TWF characters' advantage that they prefer nerfing the Icy Raiments.

[Borror0]

Now we have armor crafting, and ideally those bonuses should have been mostly defensive in nature -- some are and some aren't.

...well, you are right that Turbine have been more trigger happy on procs than they should.

But it seems to me if you forgo the extra offense of a second weapon for a shield, you should be able to gain a second set of defensive bonuses.

The problem is that this is much more dangerous for the defensive side.

Whether you are dealing 68.8 damage per swing on average or 70.1 won't make much of a difference. A gap of 2 AC however is easily noticeable.

Now, I'm not totally against good shields. That would be a ridiculous stance. However, we got to be careful about it and making in it another "must grind" would be a bad idea. S&B characters have enough of that already. A certain amount of grind if fine, but you got to be careful about the quantity of grind and its reward.

I mean even at 1:1, splashing 2 levels of Monk to get 2 AC, evasion and 2 feats seems plenty generous, don't ya think?

Agreed. +2 AC seems plenty to me. Might be ideal as it punishes those that have invested in Wisdom.

Of course, that would be moot if we would have access ability score respec.