Idea for Enter the Kobold

[SableShadow]

Oh yeah... cuz they have low int, it's ok. Riiiiight. So you would suddenly cry out if they were all kobold mages? Please.

Don't use In character justification of obvious game design limitations... it comes off so weak.

You mean...stupid mobs shouldn't behave stupidly?

Or...in ways that make completing the quest possible?

And...if characters don't behave in character...what's the point of an MMORPG?

Or...in ways that make completing the quest possible?

I notice that the Kobold arch mage and the efreet *don't* come to the portal, but the stupid mobs will. Design, perhaps?

The mechanics of the quest seem to indicate the door is part of the strategem...else, why require a body to man it, eh? Something does, indeed, come off weak...something about denying the quest mechanics to make a point....? I kinda can't help but notice the rest of my post got ignored.....

But, hey, I get it. You're ticked that, for this quest, evasion is good. Wasn't always that way, isn't always that way, and won't always be that way in the future.

[bobbryan2]

You mean...stupid mobs shouldn't behave stupidly?

Or...in ways that make completing the quest possible?

And...if characters don't behave in character...what's the point of an MMORPG?

Or...in ways that make completing the quest possible?

I notice that the Kobold arch mage and the efreet *don't* come to the portal, but the stupid mobs will. Design, perhaps?

The mechanics of the quest seem to indicate the door is part of the strategem...else, why require a body to man it, eh? Something does, indeed, come off weak...something about denying the quest mechanics to make a point....? I kinda can't help but notice the rest of my post got ignored.....

But, hey, I get it. You're ticked that, for this quest, evasion is good. Wasn't always that way, isn't always that way, and won't always be that way in the future.

Ugh.. talk about missing the point.

I suppose the gnoll caster, the kobold paragon, the devil cat, and the orc are all stupid when they sit locked behind people in part 5 of the shroud doing nothing.

Or when guys are kited for an eternity, without ever thinking there might be a better way.

the point is that you're justifying an aggro issue that applies to all creatues regardless of their INT score, and just happens to be on a low INT mob in this instance.

Like I said... it's weak.

[SableShadow]

Ugh.. talk about missing the point.

I suppose the gnoll caster, the kobold paragon, the devil cat, and the orc are all stupid when they sit locked behind people in part 5 of the shroud doing nothing.

Or when guys are kited for an eternity, without ever thinking there might be a better way.

the point is that you're justifying an aggro issue that applies to all creatues regardless of their INT score, and just happens to be on a low INT mob in this instance.

Like I said... it's weak.

No, I'm justifying poor tactics on the part of mobs so that quests can be accomplished.

That was the whole "You put me in charge of the mobs, tell me to kill the players, you gonna die" portion of the post.

Face it, most of the stuff we face, both in DDO and in PnP, played by a skilled player, would make quests impossible or nearly impossible to complete.

You want to debate that point?

[oogly54]

Who's being forced to do anything? When people die in Kobold, it's more because they (pick one):

1) Can't figure out how to jump out of the pit when they run back
2) Don't understand that "Hey, run back when stuff spawns" means "Hey, run back when stuff spawns".
3) Fall in the bugged spot.
4) Re-agro stuff that's been successfully pulled.

Seriously, if you pull all the AoE mobs to the shrine, it's just a regular beatdown....then you just clear the trash one at a time so the agro holder can get his l00t. Thanks, as if that wasn't already obvious.



Eh? What? Best characters in any of these has been and continues to be self-healing wf tank-mages. No evasion required, just Quicken. There's another technique, called "not soloing" that's pretty successful, really. Organize your group, get some good tactics going on, have some players who will listen and make it work, and you're good to go. Why do you need the self healing? Are you suggesting that you only go in with evasion and WF casters? Lets exclude fighters, paladins, and caster not WF? Awesome, great solution.

People l00t run Prey all the time...what takes them out is Greater Command, not the oddball Blade Barrier. I am not saying that it is an undoable quest, but evasion makes the quest much easier. What feat in the game today is more powerful?



...which is why you make a plan, and execute that plan, so you never have to deal with those spells. Again, this isnt a tactics argument, your whole basis is assuming that i or others are too dumb to figure out a tactic that works. I assure you that is not the case. The point is the difference in dificulty many quest are with and without evasion.



A cleric who's building for evasion, is probably either a genius or an idiot. The genius knows what he's losing, knows what he's gaining, and maximizes the strengths of the later while minimizing the weaknesses of the former. The idiot reads the boards, understands nothing, then spec's in a couple levels of monk or rogue. Can you make a point out of this that related to the obvious need for evasion. And I am not buying the below comments that clerics are doing it for skill points.




Only the idiots. Seriously, the quests in this game are solveable, and solveable quickly, using a variety of methods. Lock yourself into any one and you might as well reroll your character every mod. Leave yourself open to alternate possibilities, and you'll have a build that succeeds from mod to mod to mod. As stated already, not a tatics argument, so the whole premise of your rebuttle is pointless.

Up to you.

Are you seriously trying to argue that it is not any easier with evasion?

You are completly missing my point. It is not a matter of whether you actually NEED evasion or not, it is the preceived notion that causes group builder to think they MUST have evasion and exclude those that don't. That is a problem. It is also the obvious ease of the quest with versus without. I am sure we could defeat the quest with muckbanes, but if several melee classes were only allowed to use muckbanes and others were give MIN II shroud weapons, there would be an issue there as well.

Without using the cheesey cleric hiding spot(s) in the original dragon (VON6), how easy is it to do on elite without evasion? You can scream tatics all you want, we can complete the dragon very easily without evasion because we all use "tatics" to defeat her, that doesn't change the fact evasion is the most powerful feat in the game, it is a 2nd level feat, and can only be gotten by three classes.

Since it is so powerful and useful in many quest, every build type is trying to figure out good ways of splashing in those classes to get it. It is not forced, but it sure feels that way.

[SableShadow]

Are you seriously trying to argue that it is not any easier with evasion?

Nope. Never was...just that it wasn't *required*.

You are completly missing my point. It is not a matter of whether you actually NEED evasion or not, it is the preceived notion that causes group builder to think they MUST have evasion and exclude those that don't. That is a problem. It is also the obvious ease of the quest with versus without. I am sure we could defeat the quest with muckbanes, but if several melee classes were only allowed to use muckbanes and others were give MIN II shroud weapons, there would be an issue there as well.

No, I got that point. You're pointing out the same optimizing mindset that have people advertising "2 tanks, 2 casters, 2 healers", "no traps, no rogues", and "casters and clerics only" for various specific quests in the lfm.

In some ways, we're arguing flip sides of the same position, right? I'm saying these people are dim; you're saying that Turbine is encouraging them, but we both agree that the mindset sucks.

Without using the cheesey cleric hiding spot(s) in the original dragon (VON6), how easy is it to do on elite without evasion? You can scream tatics all you want, we can complete the dragon very easily without evasion because we all use "tatics" to defeat her, that doesn't change the fact evasion is the most powerful feat in the game, it is a 2nd level feat, and can only be gotten by three classes.

Isn't casting ability the most powerful feat in the game, gained at level 1?

That was my point about the self-healing/buffing wf tanks.

Since it is so powerful and useful in many quest, every build type is trying to figure out good ways of splashing in those classes to get it. It is not forced, but it sure feels that way.

Everyone optimizes. I used to feel the same way about */Pali/* builds, honestly, because it just seemed *wrong* that it was everywhere for a while.

[Aspenor]

Evasion is NEVER required.

If people really suck so bad at playing DDO that they can't simply must optimize their party every time they quest, I feel sorry for them.

[oogly54]

Evasion is NEVER required.

If people really suck so bad at playing DDO that they can't simply must optimize their party every time they quest, I feel sorry for them.

I agree, it is not required to complete anything, but it IS easier with it. Every party leadrr is going to optimize there party for ease of run. Do we really need to argue how crappy most players are in this game? if you are a very good player than you know how to work around it and you really dont care. if you are an average player you believe there is no way to do the quest without evasion and build groups with mostly evasion types, excluding all others. There thinking IS correct, that the quest will be easier with evasion and with average players it might be nessassary.

[Nyvn]

Spell: Ooze Puppet
Telekinetically controls the actions of an enemy ooze, forcing it to change sides. The target is slowed by this spell, but gains additional Fortitude saves every 60 seconds to break free. While under the effect of this spell, the ooze cannot split.

Guess what living spells are? Tactics > Complaining on the boards.

[Thrudh]

Trolls regenerate

You sir, have won the internets.

[Thrudh]

I have proof of the #1 tactic in 2006. This is what we all were doing then.

That is awesome....

What happened in Jan/Feb of 2004 that made interest in "boobs" spike?

[Thrudh]

I agree, it is not required to complete anything, but it IS easier with it. Every party leadrr is going to optimize there party for ease of run. Do we really need to argue how crappy most players are in this game? if you are a very good player than you know how to work around it and you really dont care. if you are an average player you believe there is no way to do the quest without evasion and build groups with mostly evasion types, excluding all others. There thinking IS correct, that the quest will be easier with evasion and with average players it might be nessassary.

The sad thing, many times the "very good" players are guilty of building optimal groups too, because all they want is fast smooth runs too....

And then they complain that the game is boring and there's no challenge...

(Some people play perma-death - I play a mode called "Take the first 5 people that want to come along" - both keep the game exciting)

[Vorn]

(Some people play perma-death - I play a mode called "Take the first 5 people that want to come along" - both keep the game exciting)

Now that's something I never thought of--an open LFM, take the first five to apply and go--no waiting for clerics or caster or bard or whatever--epic win or epic fail, but probably loads of fun for folks who don't take gaming too seriously.

[Kaldaka]

That is awesome....

What happened in Jan/Feb of 2004 that made interest in "boobs" spike?

I find it more interesting that "boobs" are trending slowly upward in popularity!

[Kistilan]

That is awesome....

What happened in Jan/Feb of 2004 that made interest in "boobs" spike?

The 2004 Second Election Campaign of President George W. Bush was announced.

Please review the slide, 2008 numerous other candidates also announced their intentions on running for President (yet another Spike!)

Finally, we're seeing an upward trend as time advances parallel in searches for boobs AND searches for Chuck Norris. This is a good thing. If Chuck Norris continued to become popular inversely to boobs, we might have a replication crisis by 2020.

[bobbryan2]

Evasion is NEVER required.

If people really suck so bad at playing DDO that they can't simply must optimize their party every time they quest, I feel sorry for them.

Evasion is never required...

But things can be a PAIN without evasion. There are plenty of times I'll grab a character with evasion if no one else in the party has it... just because I don't want to deal with not having it.

The fire room in Sor'jek is one of those. That whole room is a 'pain' without evasion. And without evasion or wounders... it's a downright cleric nightmare.

[SableShadow]

Evasion is never required...

But things can be a PAIN without evasion. There are plenty of times I'll grab a character with evasion if no one else in the party has it... just because I don't want to deal with not having it.

The fire room in Sor'jek is one of those. That whole room is a 'pain' without evasion. And without evasion or wounders... it's a downright cleric nightmare.

Sure.

And the end fight is a 'pain' without a caster or a cleric. Did it with three rogues, a barbarian, a ranger, and a cleric because that's what we all had flagged at the time but it was, well, a long and painful final fight.

Look, I started posting because the OP seemed to indicate that not having a majority of Evasion characters in the party made the final fight in Kobold impossible or at least "that sucked so bad I'm never doing it again" difficult.

His proposed improvement (ring of evasion) is a poor way to reduce the quest difficulty primarily because people who haven't built for evasion aren't going to get any benefit out of it.

Better changes to reduce the difficulty of the quest have been recommended:
1) Fewer spell/fire ele spawns at lower difficulty levels
2) Fireshield clickies, perhaps in a chest somewhere (like the little "helper" items in LotD)
3) Spell selection and employment
4) Tactics other than "zerg until he's dead or you are"

I'm not a big fan of chasing the FOTM; a lot of folks who are crunching numbers now trying to get evasion into their builds, thinking this will somehow make them uber, will be face the same disappointment everyone else who's done the same thing mod after mod has: the game changes, and what's great for the popular quests of the day will hurt them in the next ones.