poll:? no dragon marks

[Jay203]

Well, if you want dragonmarks on your wf that's just fine, as soon as I get the wf immunities on my humie or dragonmarks on my drow.

if you want the immunities, you have to take the -2 wis, -2 cha, -50% healing, fear of rust monsters, smite-able, and also innate spell casting failure chance as well

seriously, people who only bring up wf immunities as their argument for wf not needing any more benefits are picking and choosing what they see. if the developers take away all the wf penalties and leave the benefits in, we have nothing to ask for, we'll be happy. WE ALL KNOW THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN!
dammit ppl, wf are practically 26 pt builts to start with, and with the 1750, a 30 pt build at most
i don't give a **** how good of a save you have, you're not going to survive an assult of 10 giant rusties up your @$$
not to mention there's NOTHING THAT PREVENTS THE RUST MONSTER STUN
everything wf immunities gives can be obtained through buffing (except maybe the exhaustion part) so wf don't really have THAT much in it for them >_>

[BlackSteel]

if you want the immunities, you have to take the -2 wis, -2 cha, -50% healing, fear of rust monsters, smite-able, and also innate spell casting failure chance as well

seriously, people who only bring up wf immunities as their argument for wf not needing any more benefits are picking and choosing what they see. if the developers take away all the wf penalties and leave the benefits in, we have nothing to ask for, we'll be happy. WE ALL KNOW THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN!
dammit ppl, wf are practically 26 pt builts to start with, and with the 1750, a 30 pt build at most
i don't give a **** how good of a save you have, you're not going to survive an assult of 10 giant rusties up your @$$
not to mention there's NOTHING THAT PREVENTS THE RUST MONSTER STUN
everything wf immunities gives can be obtained through buffing (except maybe the exhaustion part) so wf don't really have THAT much in it for them >_>

immunity to negative levels; altho I've been argued with that beholder optics are plenty of protection for that. But running a cleric in the subt.; plenty of people get zapped by beholders, its not a common peice of equipment for most people, uses up an important equipment slot, and is charged base

decent saves and DR can prevent the rusty stun, if my no-ac barb can survive in rainbow solo down the rusty hallway (and killing them, not running by) its not that bad. Altho the rusties in that quest are quite a different beast from prior mod rusties.

[Dylos_Moon]

immunity to negative levels; altho I've been argued with that beholder optics are plenty of protection for that. But running a cleric in the subt.; plenty of people get zapped by beholders, its not a common peice of equipment for most people, uses up an important equipment slot, and is charged base

Negative levels can also be prevented with the Silver Flame necklace, of course, if I remember correctly, at the highest tier it only has 9 charges, which will also go off by inflict various wounds/harm -.-

[Vivanto]

if you want the immunities, you have to take the -2 wis, -2 cha, -50% healing, fear of rust monsters, smite-able, and also innate spell casting failure chance as well
-2 wis isn't of any impact at all, will saves are the least important of the 3, especially being immune to hold monster. Cha might be, but if you need it, you're a sorc with insane self healing so your -50% healing is moot. There is no mob in game that uses smiting weapons, even then if you can't reach 22 fort on any wf class you should reroll. Fortunately DDO isn't a pvp game. Spell casting failure is neglected by 1AP and you already got innate AC and usage of any +enchantement docent. While I have to spare 12 AP if I want to make an armored elven mage. Oh and that non-wf mage is still limited to a max of 10%asf armors while a wf can use mithral body with a few more points.

seriously, people who only bring up wf immunities as their argument for wf not needing any more benefits are picking and choosing what they see. if the developers take away all the wf penalties and leave the benefits in, we have nothing to ask for, we'll be happy. WE ALL KNOW THAT'S NOT GONNA HAPPEN! Your point being? No worries I see clearly enough all the pros and cons of a wf, and it is fine just as it is.
dammit ppl, wf are practically 26 pt builts to start with, and with the 1750, a 30 pt build at most
i don't give a **** how good of a save you have, you're not going to survive an assult of 10 giant rusties up your @$$
Maybe you don't care about saves. I do, and many others, live with it... it can save your butt from those evil vicious rusties that are all over the place in every quest, every room, every....you get it
not to mention there's NOTHING THAT PREVENTS THE RUST MONSTER STUN
everything wf immunities gives can be obtained through buffing (except maybe the exhaustion part) so wf don't really have THAT much in it for them >_> And total immunity to energy drain, unmatched by any other race or item or buff. While at it, good luck obtaining those buffs when fighting beholders

Replies in red, but let's get trough those meaningless immunities then one by one.

sleep - Not really usefull, but there's no other way to obtain it (elves and drow get it too).
nausea - Same as above, tho sometimes it can be lethal.
poison, disease - Can get from items, proof agains poison buff, remove disease. Buffs rely too much on circumstances, item slots are getting more and more expensive nowadays.
paralysis - Marginally usefull, no other way to obtain it.
exhaustion - Since we can't drink lesser resto pots in rage, it is more usefull than many would think.
energy drain - Now we're talking! Without any item slot dedication with only a few charges, total immunity to a no-save, stupid but deadly spell that nobody else can have, sorry this is way overpowered.(yet by the rules so I won't scream to get rid of it)
Immunity to spells targeting a humanoid - Aka immunity to hold, clerics rarely buff fom, and again... beholders come to mind

Also warforge get inherent 25% fortification that stacks with outside sources, a plain old moderate fort item will grant total immunity to crits. White Docent, HOGF, Belt of Moraron etc... There were hints of mobs debuffing fortification, WF with 125% practical fort will have a huge benefit there.

[baylensman]

i like that we have some lively discussion, BUT the original point is that dragon marks while the may not be overly useful, depending on the choices and opinions above, are still denied to one race. My original point was to compensate for that and that alone.
All the points advanced earlier in this thread about iminuites exhaustion and whatever were just as valid pre-mod whatever, when the dragon marks were brought into the game system. Remember warforged as a race can't wear robes either, so now we're down two to other races. I guess it overcompensation because we are all so pretty!

So should warforged get something beside the one time discount from Fred?
How about allowing docent AC bonus to stack?
Mark of the maker instead of dragon marks?
Allow the use of a Buckler while two weapon fighting?
Get rid of the Heal deficit?
or something else?

[Vivanto]

Ehheh, yep sorry for the hijack /whistles innocently.

/on

While your point on not getting any dm on a race is valid, don't forget that drow don't get it either (can anyone tell if half-orcs got dragonmarks?). The main reason is simply Eberron lore and I am fine with that, however there are a couple stuff already discussed that they should get, yet isn't implemented. Battlefists come first in mind.

So should warforged get something beside the one time discount from Fred?
I think it is just fine, keep in mind it is firstly a quest from Lockania regarding dragonmarks only not "something vast and mysterious™ special for everyone", which wf don't have.
How about allowing docent AC bonus to stack?
Not sure what you mean by that, docents don't give AC bonus, but the +enchantement bonuses, AC comes from plating, or what should they stack with?
Mark of the maker instead of dragon marks?
If it fits with Eberron, I'm fine with that
Allow the use of a Buckler while two weapon fighting?
This issue is not WF specific. (and /signed x1000!!!!!!!)
Get rid of the Heal deficit?
There are already many ways to increase divine healing power.
or something else?
Battlefists!!! (to compensate other races, shouldn't be introduced until GS handwraps tho)

[hu-flung-pu]

The bonus on Docents counts as an armor bonus. That stacks with the inherent armor bonus of what ever body type you have.

He's saying make docent's a different type of AC bonus, so in effect letting a Warforged wear black widow bracers with a +5 docent granting him +9 to his AC.

[Dylos_Moon]

So should warforged get something beside the one time discount from Fred? No
How about allowing docent AC bonus to stack? No
Mark of the maker instead of dragon marks? No
Allow the use of a Buckler while two weapon fighting? Only if this works for all races, and with bows too
Get rid of the Heal deficit? Can I have the ability to have 50% healing from repair spells for my fleshies?
or something else?

Replies in red.

Beyond the setting material, Warforged should not get anything that other races do not recieve, if there is a discount at fred, everyone should receive it, if AC bracers were to stack (even such as how they work in NWN2, i.e. +2 Mithril Full Plate + +10 Armor bracers = +10 Mithril Full Plate) they should for everyone. Mark of the Maker is a HUMAN dragonmark, you cannot have it, no Reconstruct 5/rest for you (Though, this might be doable in 4th ED, I hear the race restrictions were removed from all the Dragonmarks). Bucklers should already be able to be used with TWF and Bows, they hang on the outside of your hand, and don't actually occupy it, warforged or not. Fleshie types cannot be healed by Arcane sources, why should warforged get innate 100% healing from Arcane and Divine?

[Aspenor]

So should warforged get something beside the one time discount from Fred?
How about allowing docent AC bonus to stack?
Mark of the maker instead of dragon marks?
Allow the use of a Buckler while two weapon fighting?
Get rid of the Heal deficit?
or something else?

warforged immunities are worth FAR more than dragonmarks and robe wearing. actually, if you want to wear a robe you should be asking Turbine to implement unarmored body, a warforged feat that eliminates ASF and allows them to wear a robe but not docents. In exchange they lose the +2 Armor AC from their docent, and their light fortification.

By the rules Warforged heal at 50% from divine magic. Asking to get rid of that mechanic is like asking to allow a fighter to cast finger of death.

Dragonmarks have a prerequisite by the rules that states you must be a member of both a dragonmarked RACE and HOUSE. Warforged are not a marked race nor are they regularly members of any house except Cannith. However the race restriction still applies.