Turbine isnt a fan of powergamers

[Deathseeker]

Looks to me like Turbine has made a conscious commitment to target newer and more casual players, at the possible expense of the more traditional long time power gamer. I think the evidence is fairly obvious that they are moving resources away from end game much more than in the past…

1. New player area focus
2. New player generation paths
3. Hirelings
4. New raid loot system random oriented vs rewarding dedicated grinding
5. Icey raiments for all
6. Rainbow now as intended, which makes it a slow run and not as easily farmable
7. Eldritch rituals based on lowbie collectibles
8. Named loot in NPE minimizes twinking need
9. Mod 8 content all able to be run by 6
10. Large increase in number of outdoor areas
11. 3 barrel cove addition
12. Monk addition

Etc, etc, etc…

I think the pinnacle of end game content targeted at the powergamer was the Shroud mechanic, and it worked fantastically. For some reason (I’d guess a business reason), they seemed to move away from that. Maybe it didnt help the bottom line as it wasnt seen until months into a new subscription, and they were losing the player before they ever got there? Just a guess...

Is this change in focus good or bad? Well, if you love farming the Shroud, love having the most exclusive loot on the server, and completely power level through low end content, well, I’d say you see this as bad. If you like messing with rerolls all the time, like different playstyles (RP, PD, solo, or just creeping), and raids for the top end loot aren’t your main focus, then I’d say you are happy with the direction in general.

I think this is why you see such a polarization on the forums. Will be interesting to see if their strategy pays off in a better financially performing subscriber base, or has the opposite effect.

For me, I like the direction. I think chasing the powergaming crowd is a neverending struggle. Attracting and satisfying new customers faster than losing long time players seems a more realistic strategy. That’s great if your Turbine, not so hot if you are one of those powergamers.

Just my opinion of course…

[Nevthial]

5. Icey raiments for all

The new Black Widow bracers. That's how I see it. Which I think, isn't a bad thing for casual players. Not everyone can spend 12 hrs a day playing. ( Though some of us can )

[maddmatt70]

I don't agree with point 4. The dragontouched armor also rewards grinders. The more runes you collect from the various mod8 quests the better chance you will have of getting what you want. In a sense it rewards the ulitmate grinders those diehards that are willing to grind a quest 35 times if need be for one character.

Edit: I think if you do the numbers it really is just less likely you will get the rune you want then the shroud item you want. It is actually more of a grind then the shroud, lol which is what turns me off of it. That and it is more oriented towards slot saving and not cool items you want to get.

[frugal_gourmet]

I don't buy #4. The Shroud system is random too. Let's be honest. It's just random in the ingredient drop and not the manufacturing process.

..

I submit that some of these decisions weren't designed to punish powergamers so much as to encourage people to actually play the game in the intended, adventurous fashion. Farming in my book isn't really fun, and if it is truly fun or exciting for anyone I worry about their mental health.

I wholly support the addition those features which do not reward the mindless repetition of the same sequence of events without variation or need for strategic thinking or fear of failure. Obviously, "grinding" is necessary in all online RPGs. But let's shy away from making this into a job. Some discouraging of "farming" makes the game more fun.

[maddmatt70]

edit

[Deathseeker]

I don't agree with point 4. The dragontouched armor also rewards grinders. The more runes you collect from the various mod8 quests the better chance you will have of getting what you want. In a sense it rewards the ulitmate grinders those diehards that are willing to grind a quest 35 times if need be for one character.

Matt, I don't necessarily disagree. However, seems like a lot of the forum "buzz" is that people arent wanting to make that grind for the reward it offers. If that's accurate, then the type of player who would actually like this mechanic is the one who pulls the slot maching handle a couple of times on the armor and end up happy with the result...ie, the more casual gamer.

So while I agree it "could" be an endgame grind mechanic, based on the initial feedback and rewards it gives, it doesnt seem like it is going to end up that way.

Throw a +4 stackable dodge bonus and a mithral option into the mix, and I'd bet you are 100% right, this would become a grind-o-matic by the elite...

[schroebj13]

Looks to me like Turbine has made a conscious commitment to target newer and more casual players, at the possible expense of the more traditional long time power gamer. I think the evidence is fairly obvious that they are moving resources away from end game much more than in the past…

1. New player area focus
2. New player generation paths
3. Hirelings
4. New raid loot system random oriented vs rewarding dedicated grinding
5. Icey raiments for all
6. Rainbow now as intended, which makes it a slow run and not as easily farmable
7. Eldritch rituals based on lowbie collectibles
8. Named loot in NPE minimizes twinking need
9. Mod 8 content all able to be run by 6
10. Large increase in number of outdoor areas
11. 3 barrel cove addition
12. Monk addition

Etc, etc, etc…

I think the pinnacle of end game content targeted at the powergamer was the Shroud mechanic, and it worked fantastically. For some reason (I’d guess a business reason), they seemed to move away from that. Maybe it didnt help the bottom line as it wasnt seen until months into a new subscription, and they were losing the player before they ever got there? Just a guess...

Is this change in focus good or bad? Well, if you love farming the Shroud, love having the most exclusive loot on the server, and completely power level through low end content, well, I’d say you see this as bad. If you like messing with rerolls all the time, like different playstyles (RP, PD, solo, or just creeping), and raids for the top end loot aren’t your main focus, then I’d say you are happy with the direction in general.

I think this is why you see such a polarization on the forums. Will be interesting to see if their strategy pays off in a better financially performing subscriber base, or has the opposite effect.

For me, I like the direction. I think chasing the powergaming crowd is a neverending struggle. Attracting and satisfying new customers faster than losing long time players seems a more realistic strategy. That’s great if your Turbine, not so hot if you are one of those powergamers.

Just my opinion of course…

I have posted this a number of times.

In order to make this game work, it takes ballance.

Look back at the last 3 MODS, what do we have?
4 new raids,
3 new high level explorer areas,
maybe 20 new high level quests.
Whats coming next? A 4 level cap raise, with I am assuming more high level content.

So if in MOD 8 they throw in some work on the low level content(plus 3 new high level quests and an explorer area), I would say they are more than balancing toward the end game.

If everyone is at endgame, this game WILL die. They need to attract new players to the game as well.

Just MY opinion.....

[Rowanheal]

I do believe they are going to reward those who don't have power gamer tendencies...

For those of us who do... we find other things to keep us busy...

I am not in favor of this at all...

It stinks...

And I have long thought the diluting of a game to be insulting...

Basically so many of my friends have left, I find myself trying out other games, dusting off the console and reading LOL

Man I hope we find a good balance soon...retain those of us who love the game.. attract new people...

sooooo bored....

See ya in Stormreach,

-R

[VonBek]

If everyone is at endgame, this game WILL die. They need to attract new players to the game as well. Just MY opinion.....

Attrition happens.

[Dymond]

You know guys as a whole in order for a company to be profitable they do need to focus on the more casual player. Lets be honest, everybody pays the same, but the casual player is more profitable because as a whole he uses less resources; he isn't in the game all the time, he doesn't use as much bandwidth and system resources etc. I'm sure there is a breakpoint in hours online per month where user is no longer considered to be profitable and as a whole costs the company more than they make.

Remember a few months/years ago when people found out that Netflix had an algorithm that basically said the user that only gets 3 movies a month will get a movie ahead of a person who rents 20? Were the power-renters ticked off? Yes they were but the company knew it was a risk because those power-renters were actually costing them money and sometimes you have to be willing to say sorry but our business plan really isn't about the guy renting all these movies. I think the same paradigm applies here.

As a whole powergamers probably cost Turbine more than they are worth when they only have a certain set amount of resources at their disposal.

[weyoun]

You know guys as a whole in order for a company to be profitable they do need to focus on the more casual player. Lets be honest, everybody pays the same, but the casual player is more profitable because as a whole he uses less resources; he isn't in the game all the time, he doesn't use as much bandwidth and system resources etc. I'm sure there is a breakpoint in hours online per month where user is no longer considered to be profitable and as a whole costs the company more than they make.

Remember a few months/years ago when people found out that Netflix had an algorithm that basically said the user that only gets 3 movies a month will get a movie ahead of a person who rents 20? Were the power-renters ticked off? Yes they were but the company knew it was a risk because those power-renters were actually costing them money and sometimes you have to be willing to say sorry but our business plan really isn't about the guy renting all these movies. I think the same paradigm applies here.

As a whole powergamers probably cost Turbine more than they are worth when they only have a certain set amount of resources at their disposal.

Yeah nice post. Both the OP and this one. New blood keeps the game around. Taking a break from the game is never a bad thing, I'm just such an addict that its hard and I need new more potent junk to feed the addiction. Everybody's got something to hide 'cept for me and my monkey.

[Borror0]

1. New player area focus
2. New player generation paths
3. Hirelings
8. Named loot in NPE minimizes twinking need
11. 3 barrel cove addition

That only proves they want to make the game more friendly to new players.

4. New raid loot system random oriented vs rewarding dedicated grinding

This is a joke, right?

5. Icey raiments for all

This only means they tried to reduce the grind.

7. Eldritch rituals based on lowbie collectibles

These are very grindish by nature.

9. Mod 8 content all able to be run by 6
10. Large increase in number of outdoor areas
12. Monk addition

This proves nothnig.

6. Rainbow now as intended, which makes it a slow run and not as easily farmable

This only proves developers dislike having a quest not being ran the way they intended to.

[Junts]

I don't agree with point 4. The dragontouched armor also rewards grinders. The more runes you collect from the various mod8 quests the better chance you will have of getting what you want. In a sense it rewards the ulitmate grinders those diehards that are willing to grind a quest 35 times if need be for one character.

Edit: I think if you do the numbers it really is just less likely you will get the rune you want then the shroud item you want. It is actually more of a grind then the shroud, lol which is what turns me off of it. That and it is more oriented towards slot saving and not cool items you want to get.

But the slot saving lets you USE so many more cool items that already exist, either all the time or on hotswaps.

Because i finally got +6 str on my armor today and don't yet have a chattering ring, I now have the option of putting striding on my ring and using two of the coolest items in the game all the time: Firestorm Greaves or Kundarak Delving Boots.

Those may be old items, but they're cool as hell and rare is the toon that can ware them constantly without running so slow.

[Borror0]

Turbine does care about the powergamers.

However, there is a notion you have to keep in mind: there is no such things as content for powergamers. It is only natural to build a game on the way up. Add new levels, new spells, new quests, etc. If you only focus on the lower levels, you're going to loose a lot of your population as, with time, players tend to gain XP, level up and get bored of the same quests. It's thus only natural to develop high level content.

Also, novelty is something important as well. A new feat, ability or enhancement can inject a lot of life into the game for some. And if you are to add a new spell, you want something good. Not another Merflok's Blessing. Even those called casual gamers "powergame". They don't pick up a bad feat on purpose just to be weaker, nor do they try to kill Suulomades with a Masterwork Toothpick.

Powergamers don't require content designed for them so much. Except maybe raids which are now sort of required to keep our interest since Turbine just messed up the random loot tables. Other than that, very little is required as Turbine will keep on improving its game. Powergamers will play it. That is, by definition, what a powergamers is. They don't required overpowered stuff. They just find what is most powerful and they play it.

Maybe what you are trying to say is that they are trying to attract different playstyles. But that is obvious.

Doing otherwise would be simply stupid.

[Timjc86]

I think it's an attempt at balance, not necessarily a shift of commitment. From what we have heard about Mod 9, it should be one of the largest content updates we have had:

• Level cap incrased by four levels
• new raid

I certainly don't have a flawless memory of all of the updates, but I'm fairly certain that mod 8 was one of the few that had an overwhelming focus towards lower levels, at least on the order of magnitude of an entire new player experience, character creation menu, etc.

As far as your points:

4) There is certainly some luck involved in completing Dragontouched Armor, but it could also potentially involve just as much, if not more grinding than the Shroud. The randomness seems like an interesting attempt to get all players (as opposed to just casual or just power) to work on the mod 8 quests.

6) This is only a single quest. Were all of the mod 8 quests designed this way I would be more suspicious. It also seems to be in line with the changes to Reaver, Hound, VoD, etc. as an attempt to bring the quests more in-line with how they were originally envisioned.

7) Similar to #4, it could still potentially take some grinding, which a power gamer could accomplish (either by repeatedly running low level quests, or by just outright buying the ingredients) faster than a casual player.

12) This the point I disagree with the most. The monk class definitely favors powergamers over casual ones. They are significantly reliant on attributes, strongly favoring the player who has unlocked 32 point builds and has plenty of +6 stat items banked, as well as access to +2 tomes over the player who hasn't, doesn't, and doesn't. I would also argue that the monk class is more complex than most (even all) of the others. It requires some major twitch skills to perform well, which improve with lots and lots of practice. Keeping an entire party buffed with Walk of the Sun and Aligning the Heavens (maybe even Dance of Clouds - I think the names are correct, may be slightly off) is NOT particularly easy or quick to learn how to do well.


I certainly hope that Turbine will continue to try and provide content for both casual gamers as well as power gamers, and it seems that that is there aim. We're just seeing one side of the coin right now, and it looks like it will flip for mod 9.

Edit: No new races for mod 9.

[Deathseeker]

I think it's an attempt at balance, not necessarily a shift of commitment. From what we have heard about Mod 9, it should be one of the largest content updates we have had:

• Level cap incrased by four levels
• new race(s)
• new raid

I certainly don't have a flawless memory of all of the updates, but I'm fairly certain that mod 8 was one of the few that had an overwhelming focus towards lower levels, at least on the order of magnitude of an entire new player experience, character creation menu, etc.

As far as your points:

4) There is certainly some luck involved in completing Dragontouched Armor, but it could also potentially involve just as much, if not more grinding than the Shroud. The randomness seems like an interesting attempt to get all players (as opposed to just casual or just power) to work on the mod 8 quests.

6) This is only a single quest. Were all of the mod 8 quests designed this way I would be more suspicious. It also seems to be in line with the changes to Reaver, Hound, VoD, etc. as an attempt to bring the quests more in-line with how they were originally envisioned.

7) Similar to #4, it could still potentially take some grinding, which a power gamer could accomplish (either by repeatedly running low level quests, or by just outright buying the ingredients) faster than a casual player.

12) This the point I disagree with the most. The monk class definitely favors powergamers over casual ones. They are significantly reliant on attributes, strongly favoring the player who has unlocked 32 point builds and has plenty of +6 stat items banked, as well as access to +2 tomes over the player who hasn't, doesn't, and doesn't. I would also argue that the monk class is more complex than most (even all) of the others. It requires some major twitch skills to perform well, which improve with lots and lots of practice. Keeping an entire party buffed with Walk of the Sun and Aligning the Heavens (maybe even Dance of Clouds - I think the names are correct, may be slightly off) is NOT particularly easy or quick to learn how to do well.


I certainly hope that Turbine will continue to try and provide content for both casual gamers as well as power gamers, and it seems that that is there aim. We're just seeing one side of the coin right now, and it looks like it will flip for mod 9.

Fair points. I guess I was looking at it from more of a macro perspective...who is Turbine focused on? If you look at the prioritization, it looks to me like they are focused on attracting new players/returning players and retaining them for a while. They do not look as focused on retaining the hardcore player base.

While one can say this is obvious and anything else would be stupid (ahem, Borror0), it certainly doesn't seem that a lot of people on these forums find it obvious and are suggesting a very different direction. I personally like the direction, love the balance, and am pleased. But it sure seems that a lot of people were expecting a much higher focus on endgame content, and not hirelings and NPE.

So while there are definitely debatable points on each of the examples I gave (and I agree with the counter to several), I still believe at a top level, this is still showing Turbine is focusing away from endgame, powergamer content and more toward new player development/retention.

You may be right though...why develop endgame content when you are about to raise the cap 4 levels? There's plenty of content at levels 14-16 to level through, so why not rebuild the lower levels, then get a cap increase, then focus on end game content?

Ok, you've somewhat convinced me...I'll change my premise from "Turbine isnt a fan of powergamers" to "Turbine isnt a fan of developing content for powergamers at this time...but stay tuned..."

[Borror0]

[...] this is still showing Turbine is focusing away from endgame, powergamer content and more toward new player development/retention.

They are only not putting all their eggs in the same basket.

They need new players to replace the one that they will inevitably loose sooner or later.

[Mithran]

While there are many here who are really committed to this game and rightly (in my mind) regard it as the best game around both in terms of graphics and combat, let's face it: It's not a popular game. As soon as the Realm merging was announced, I grew worried about the game's finances, and as more and more friends have left, my concern has only increased.

We're therefore left to try to answer the question of why this is not a popular game, and I think the conclusion reached was that it's too complicated. Picture your average WoW player coming here, rolling a Warforged Barbarian, and then getting owned by the first kobold shaman he/she encounters in Waterworks. I remember before the first quest was nerfed that my several early attempts at rolling a Rogue were dramatic failures.

So Turbine made it easier to roll a viable character in an effort to make the game as a whole better; not to alienate the veterans. The last emphasis in Development was a difficult one for the veterans, and I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision to reach by the company, but it needed to be done, and my commitment to DDO is sufficient for me to remain patient for one Update. The game couldn't continue as it had. Most of us who know about this game learned many of its mechanics long, long ago.

If Turbine is going to appeal to a mass market at all, they needed to simplify things for the new players. Most players aren't willing to read through 1500 pages of rules in an effort to learn how to build a viable character in this game; the competition makes no such demands.

It's difficult for the veterans, but our desires had to take a back seat to Administrative priorities. It's a better game, now. I hope DDO will also pay for some advertising, but I think it would be better timing for the advertising to be released with the next Update, when the game as a whole will be the best game around for everyone, and not just for those of us who have known the basic rules for thirty years.

[Deathseeker]

They are only not putting all their eggs in the same basket.

They need new players to replace the one that they will inevitably loose sooner or later.

Agreed.

So it seems pretty much everyone is on the same page in this thread (not on the specific examples, but on the general direction). So why does it seem the rest of the forum crowd is having such a hard time accepting this reality?

[Deathseeker]

While there are many here who are really committed to this game and rightly (in my mind) regard it as the best game around both in terms of graphics and combat, let's face it: It's not a popular game. As soon as the Realm merging was announced, I grew worried about the game's finances, and as more and more friends have left, my concern has only increased.

We're therefore left to try to answer the question of why this is not a popular game, and I think the conclusion reached was that it's too complicated. Picture your average WoW player coming here, rolling a Warforged Barbarian, and then getting owned by the first kobold shaman he/she encounters in Waterworks. I remember before the first quest was nerfed that my several early attempts at rolling a Rogue were dramatic failures.

So Turbine made it easier to roll a viable character in an effort to make the game as a whole better; not to alienate the veterans. The last emphasis in Development was a difficult one for the veterans, and I'm sure it wasn't an easy decision to reach by the company, but it needed to be done, and my commitment to DDO is sufficient for me to remain patient for one Update. The game couldn't continue as it had. Most of us who know about this game learned many of its mechanics long, long ago.

If Turbine is going to appeal to a mass market at all, they needed to simplify things for the new players. Most players aren't willing to read through 1500 pages of rules in an effort to learn how to build a viable character in this game; the competition makes no such demands.

It's difficult for the veterans, but our desires had to take a back seat to Administrative priorities. It's a better game, now. I hope DDO will also pay for some advertising, but I think it would be better timing for the advertising to be released with the next Update, when the game as a whole will be the best game around for everyone, and not just those of us who have known the basic rules for thirty years.

Uh Oh, another very lucid, very well thought out post. I'm getting worried...that's several posts in a row without someone shouting DooooOOOOMMM...

Are the forums having technical problems limiting access to just reasonable people right now?