Is Deathnip still good? Let's take a look...

[Nirvana]

Since Mod6, we've been grinding shroud like slaves.
Did we ever ask ourselves, is GS khopesh, for example,
really THAT superior than Deathnip?

Since the critical range is the main focus of Deathnip,
in order to take full advantage, I will use Barb as test
target for this evaluation post.


Let's take a close look at it then.


Class:

Barb w/ 42 Strength, PowerAttack and power critical II
enhancement, no buff, no damage feat or enhancement,
and assume 100% success rate on confirm critical hit for
easy calculation purpose.


Comparison examples:

GS PositiveX3 Khopesh vs Deathnip


*******************************************

GS PX3 Khopesh Damage Equation :


(1-Crit_Chance) * (Base_Damage + Elemental/Alignment_Damage)
+ Crit_Chance * (Base_Damage * Crit_Multiplier + Elemental/Alignment_Damage + Seeker_Bonus_Damage + Bursting_Damage)
+ 5% * Blasting_Damage


Crit_Chance = 30% (15-20)
Crit_Multiplier = 3
Main hand Base_Damage= 1d10 + 5 (Weapon_bonus) + 16(Str_modifier) +5 (powerattack_modifier) = 31.5
Off hand Base_Damage=1d10 + 5 (Weapon_bonus) + 16/2(Str_modifier) +5 (powerattack_modifier) = 23.5
Elemental/Alignment_Damage = 2d6 (Holy) + 1d6 (Pure Good) = 7 + 3.5 = 10.5
Seeker_Bonus_Damage = 6 (Seeker) * 3 (Crit_Multiplier) = 18 (w/ bloodstone)
Bursting_Damage = 4d6 = 14
Blasting_Damage = 4d6 = 14


Average damage on one successful hit

Main hand damage (w/ bloodstone):
(1-30%)*(31.5+10.5) + 30%*(31.5*3+10.5+14+18) + 5%*14
= 71.2

Main hand damage (w/o bloodstone):
(1-30%)*(31.5+10.5) + 30%*(31.5*3+10.5+14) + 5%*14
= 65.77

Off hand damage(w/ bloodstone):
(1-30%)*(23.5+10.5) + 30%*(23.5*3+10.5+14+18) + 5%*14
= 58.4

Off hand damage(w/o bloodstone):
(1-30%)*(23.5+10.5) + 30%*(23.5*3+10.5+14) + 5%*14
= 53



********************************************

Deathnip Damage Equation :


(1-Crit_Chance) * ( Base_Damage)
+ (Crit_Chance )* ( Base_Damage * Crit_Multiplier + Seeker_Bonus_Damage + Bursting_Damage)


Crit_Chance = 30% (15-20)
Crit_Multiplier= 4
Main hand Base_Damage = 1d6 + 5 (Weapon_bonus) + 16(Str_modifier) +5 (powerattack_modifier) = 29.5
Off hand Base_Damage = 1d6 + 5 (Weapon_bonus) + 16/2(Str_modifier) +5 (powerattack_modifier) = 21.5
Seeker_Bonus_Damage = 8 (Seeker) * 4 (Crit_Multiplier) = 32
Bursting_Damage = 3d6 = 10.5 (maiming)




Average damage on one successful hit:

Main hand damage:
(1-30%)*(29.5) + 30%*(29.5*4+10.5+32)= 68.8

Off hand damage:
(1-30%)*(21.5) + 30%*(21.5*4+10.5+32) = 53.6





Some random thoughts and homework for you:

- Deathnip < GS.. by 2.4 damage per hit in mainhand, but
i still think it's a little easier to obtain (imo, tome pages
are much much easier to obtain than GS if you have
2-3 good friends, you can even solo at least 1 side...)

- Deathnip is still THE weapon which produces the highest
Critical hit damage

- Deathnip loses a lot of damage in offhand. Clearly, dual
Deathnips is NOT optimal.

- Dealing with MOB with DR, please subtract DR number
from base damage in the above equations to get average
1 hit damage.

- Please replace couple variables above such as crit_chance,
crit_range, etc for your own class and weapon.

- Please consider your miss chance, miss confirm critical hit,
and numbers of attack per round, attack speed, etc into
the damage calculation for a 'complete' damage output calculation.
It is easy to do once you get average damage per successful hit.





PS:

Full set(s) of tome pages for trade














PSS:

OK, I lied, I don't have any.




PSSS:

Thanks for the correction... I never knew it was 1d10 LOL!!

-Nirv

[Andoir]

NIrv,

Don't forget that GS khopeshes are 1d10 base damage instead of 1d8.

[Andoir]

Oh yeah,

I hate to do this to ya bro but Deathnip base damage is 1d6
I knew regular heavy picks were but I had to go check on Deathnip.

[Milolyen]

I think you should rethink your approach to figuring this compairison out as the math seems a little fudgy to me.

The way I figured it ... using the same variables and correct dmg die shows greensteel 3xpos is above deathnip in all cases.

Khopesh

1d10 +5(weapon) +16 (str bonus) + 5 (power attack) = 31.5 average base dmg
if hit on everything except a 1 then that = 31.5 x 13 = 409.5
crit = (31.5 + 6) x 3 = 112.5 then crits 6 times = 112.5 x 6 = 675
for a grand total of 1084.5 base dmg over 20 swings = 54.225 average base dmg per swing
bonus dmg from khopesh is
2d6 + 1d6 = 10.5 times that by 13 = 136.5
crit
2d6 +1d6 + 4d6 + 4d6 = 38.5 times that by 6 = 231
136.5 + 231 = 367.5 bonus dmg over 20 swings = 18.375
so
average swing dmg for khopesh 3pos = 54.225 + 18.375 = 72.6

Deathnip

1d6 +5(weapon) + 16 (str bonus) + 5 (power attack) = 29.5 average base dmg
if hit on everything except a 1 then that = 29.5 x 13 = 383.5
crit = (29.5 +8) x 4 = 150 then crits 6 times = 900
for a grand total of 1283.5 base dmg over 20 swings = 64.175 average base dmg per swing
bonus dmg from deathnip is
3d6 on crit only
10.5 x 6 = 63 spread that out over 20 hits = 3.15.
so
average swing dmg for deathnip = 64.175 + 3.15 = 67.325

Take out the extra crit range or anything reducing base dmg will hurt the deathnip more than it will the khopesh as well.

Milolyen

[Nirvana]

Oh, the method was correct, just used wrong base damage 1d8 instead of 1d10 or 1d6.

The average damage per each successful hit equation is based on the fundamental probability mean (or expect value).


E(x) = Sum ( X * P(X) )

X is random variable with probability density P(X)

For our case, X can be damage by non-critical hit or damage by critical hit.
probability of non-critical hit is 30% for our case, therefore probability of non-critical hit is 70%.

Apply the equation, you get the average damage on each successful hit. This average damage number

is the true average number. Yours is the result of very small samplings, which is approaching to the real average.


You do need to apply your miss rate and other stuff into this for more realistic result.



But anyways, the point is Deathnip isn't really that far behind. Value/Cost ratio is still very high imo.


-Nirv

[gamblerjoe]

what is the +6/+8 you are adding to weapon damage before multiplying it by the crit multiplier? are u saying that seeker gives a bonus to damage on crits?

[Spisey]

Wouldn't give up my deathnip.... The crit numbers are too pretty and often.

[Spisey]

what is the +6/+8 you are adding to weapon damage before multiplying it by the crit multiplier? are u saying that seeker gives a bonus to damage on crits?

Simply put, yes!

[DaveyCrockett]

what is the +6/+8 you are adding to weapon damage before multiplying it by the crit multiplier? are u saying that seeker gives a bonus to damage on crits?

Most likely, because it does.

[Nirvana]

seeker only gives a bonus to damage on crits

# of seeker bonus x critical multiplier = extra damage on crit

so bloodstone adds 6 x 3 = 18 damage on crit for khopesh, but 6 x 4 = 24 for pick.


-Nirv

[gamblerjoe]

actually, you do have to account for the 5% miss chance. it does not have any effect on the weapons regular damage, but it does have an effect on the crit to non crit ratio. this ratio has an effect on the total dps.

Kopesh w imp crit, crit rage 2, "high" attack bonus: over 20 swings, on average, you will have 1 miss, 13 regular hits, and 6 confirmed criticals. please bear in mind that rolling a '1' on the die does not automatically fail to confirm a critical. according to the OP's math, there is a 14/6 ratio of non-crits to crits, which is incorrect. there is actually a 13/6 ratio.

this can be easity fixed. just change: 70%(x) + 30%(y)
to: 65%(x) + 30%(y)

[gamblerjoe]

Most likely, because it does.

a thousand pardons, sir.

[LawstCawz]

A ranger would totally favor the gs khopesh.

[sirgog]

One thing that's missing from the equation - a Deathnip in the offhand increases the damage of the mainhand GS weapon (due to Seeker 8). This is especially true for those who don't have, or choose not to use Bloodstone (e.g. because they want/need Kardin's Eye instead)

[Noctus]

One thing that's missing from the equation - a Deathnip in the offhand increases the damage of the mainhand GS weapon (due to Seeker 8). This is especially true for those who don't have, or choose not to use Bloodstone (e.g. because they want/need Kardin's Eye instead)

Absolutely.
The best DPS-combo is neither 2xGS or 2xDeathNip. Its GS main-hand and DeathNip off-hand. Asd the seeker effect from DeathNip is applied to both weapons.

[maddmatt70]

The deathnip will be better in comparison to a gs khopesh as the base damage increases. Better bard songs, more strength (the barbarian rage will have more strength at level 20), etc. This fact bodes well for the future of the weapon especially in the hands of a barbarian.

[gamblerjoe]

The deathnip will be better in comparison to a gs khopesh as the base damage increases. Better bard songs, more strength (the barbarian rage will have more strength at level 20), etc. This fact bodes well for the future of the weapon especially in the hands of a barbarian.

very true. someone should make a graph.