How many classes do we really have?

[Zenix_Leviticus]

As the game progresses we are getting more and more choices available to us as
far as races, classes, and builds within those classes. However, It seems to me that
many of these choices are not so viable. Actually it seems if some of our old choices
have decreased in effectiveness to a point that it is not a valid choice at all.

Before I go any further, I must tell you, I am a fan of ALL races, classes, and builds.
I think there should be more than one way to finish a quest or any objective. I despise
a quest that makes a party stack one class or style just to complete it. This game
is based on an old game where a party made up of assorted classes should be able to
complete objectives and quest together. You all have seen the quest with 3 mages,
2 clerics and one 'other' type. Maybe you seen the raid with 2 clerics and 9 full dps
melee classes, and yes the one guy that has just enough rogue to open a door.

The direction I see the game going is for there only to be 3 classes with 2-3 different
flavors of one of the classes.

HPS (heal per second)
DPS (damage per second)
SPS (spells or spell damage per second)

With the DPS you will have a choice between your Two-Handed big hit dealing
Barbarian or your Two-Weapon Tempest Ranger. Now someone has to have a level or
two of rogue and someone has to have enough bard to cast or sing some buffs, but
not too much of these classes as to hurt the DPS.

Gone are the days of the dex fighter that focused on stat damage and could actually
still fight a Red Named Boss with some proficiency.

Gone are the days of the repeater crossbow fighter, ranger, or bard.

Gone are the days of the crowd control sorcerer.

Gone are the days of the crowd control bard. (spells)

Gone are the days of fascinate. (after the Giant Hold area)

Gone are the days of the sword and board Khopesh Fighter. (or sword and board anything)

Gone are the days of the trap monkey pure rogue.


The game has gotten incredibly easy in its' strategy.

Open the door.
Solve the puzzle.
Beat up the enemy. (You can cast a spell here if you want)

sometime we do have a slight variation.

Run
Beat up the enemy
Run
Beat up the enemy


Much of the finesse and technique is gone from the game after level 12.


My actual favorite class is the bard (or was). It used to be a little frustrating that
Red and Purple named mobs were immune to 99% of my spells. Now whole areas are
being created with blanket immunities to most of my spells or songs. I was all for giving
a saving throw vs fascinate, but not blanket immunities.

To me, it seems as if the devs only want us to build Healbots, Buffbots, THF Barbarians,
TWF Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warchanters.


I have spent 25-45 hours per week playing this game since February 28, 2006. I can
honestly say that I am frustated with the direction of the classes and game. I think
there are less viable choices today than there were two and a half years ago.


Now this post will probably fall on deaf ears from the developers and flamers from the
forums, but I just feel I had to say something.

[Dymond]

Read the new D&D 4.0 rules yet? Welcome to the new millenium...

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Lets see....

We have TWF <something>
We have some sort of caster, preferably a wizard.
And we have the good ole healing cleric...

Ummm....I didnt realise there were more choices....

Repeaters?!!? Crossbows!?!? Quaterstaff?!?! These weapons are in game now?!?

Monks? We can play monks?

Whats a rogue?

S&B...S&B...hmmm...doesnt ring any bell....wait! Wait! Isnt that another name for the parafin? Parafin, is that what that class is called? Hmmm...so very rusty on those old classes....

[MrCow]

Gone are the days of the repeater crossbow fighter, ranger, or bard.

I wonder what people will say when I stop soloing or guild grouping with my heavy repeater cleric.

[PurdueDave]

I'm having a hard time finding something to disagree with in that post.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Now this post will probably fall on deaf ears from the developers and flamers from the
forums, but I just feel I had to say something.

I dont think it can fall on deaf ears, OP. This has been a problem since I started playing, maybe even since headstart.

But I cant even imagine the enormity of the challenge of making a quest to include all builds and classes, yet not require any. Rogues needed but not required, so why bring a rogue if they aint required? TWF is now the prefered DPS choice, so what do you do to balance that out? Make THF even better? But then S&B is left in the dust (even more than it is now.) How do you make AC builds viable? Lessen the to-hit of the mobs? Then AC becomes overpowered.

And Im sure thats just scratching the surface of the problems.

I think the Dev's know that certain builds, certain classes and certain playstyles are edging out others but it takes a huge, huge effort to put in even some balance. Fix one thing and you make another flavour of the month. Fix that and it becomes something else.

The Dev's, Im sure, know all about this and Im sure they have things in mind to help out those less desirable classes/builds.

[Impaqt]

As the game progresses we are getting more and more choices available to us as
far as races, classes, and builds within those classes. However, It seems to me that
many of these choices are not so viable. Actually it seems if some of our old choices
have decreased in effectiveness to a point that it is not a valid choice at all.
With the DPS you will have a choice between your Two-Handed big hit dealing
Barbarian or your Two-Weapon Tempest Ranger. Now someone has to have a level or
two of rogue and someone has to have enough bard to cast or sing some buffs, but
not too much of these classes as to hurt the DPS.

Actually, TWF Barbarians are the cats pajamas in regards to DPS. THF is almost extinct now as well...

Gone are the days of the dex fighter that focused on stat damage and could actually
still fight a Red Named Boss with some proficiency.
ACtually, Stat damage is more important than ever in the mod8 stuff.... Its better to incapacite than kill some mobs due to respawns.

Gone are the days of the repeater crossbow fighter, ranger, or bard.
These were never prominant builds

Gone are the days of the crowd control sorcerer.
again, never prominent.... Most sorcs were Instakill or fire speced...

Gone are the days of the crowd control bard. (spells)
I'll take a bard with a solid discoball and Greater shout into any quest still

Gone are the days of fascinate. (after the Giant Hold area)
Fasinate.... Again.. Never a Primary form of crowd control.. Very few people ever understood it besides the bards qwho constantly got frustrated because players would unfasinate as fast as they could enthrall them

Gone are the days of the sword and board Khopesh Fighter. (or sword and board anything)

Gone are the days of the trap monkey pure rogue.
good riddence.


The game has gotten incredibly easy in its' strategy.

Open the door.
Solve the puzzle.
Beat up the enemy. (You can cast a spell here if you want)

sometime we do have a slight variation.

Run
Beat up the enemy
Run
Beat up the enemy


Much of the finesse and technique is gone from the game after level 12.


My actual favorite class is the bard (or was). It used to be a little frustrating that
Red and Purple named mobs were immune to 99% of my spells. Now whole areas are
being created with blanket immunities to most of my spells or songs. I was all for giving
a saving throw vs fascinate, but not blanket immunities.

To me, it seems as if the devs only want us to build Healbots, Buffbots, THF Barbarians,
TWF Rangers, Sorcerers, and Warchanters.


I have spent 25-45 hours per week playing this game since February 28, 2006. I can
honestly say that I am frustated with the direction of the classes and game. I think
there are less viable choices today than there were two and a half years ago.


Now this post will probably fall on deaf ears from the developers and flamers from the
forums, but I just feel I had to say something.

SOunds like a burnout post to me..... my guild rarely insists that someone bring "X Build" into a quest. DOesnt matter what we are doing... sometimes it makes the quest a little harder to complete.. But at least we have fun.

[Deathseeker]

I think people blow the "ideal" requirement way out of proportion...

I agree there are a few "optimal" build strategies in the current state of the game. However, part of that is because we are at a level 16 cap in a game designed for a 20 level cap. Some of what is optimal today will come back to earth when the cap goes up.

But aside from that, there is no requirement that you must be the "optimal build" or you can't play. When accepting a member into a PUG, its not like I ask "are you TWF or S&B", and then drop them if they say S&B. Granted S&B is behind in terms of dps, but it isnt completely unviable to play.

So, in response to the OP, if you always want to play in any group, then its...

Cleric
TWF Str Build
TWF Stat Dmg Build
Arcane

and that's about it. Maybe a bard on 12 man raids for buffs. But frankly, just because those are the flavor of the day today doesnt mean thats what will be the flavor once the cap is at 20.

Remember, there was a time before tempest when rangers were thought of as gimped...things change....

[eonfreon]

S&B...S&B...hmmm...doesnt ring any bell....wait! Wait! Isnt that another name for the parafin? Parafin, is that what that class is called? Hmmm...so very rusty on those old classes....

Actually my Paladin's a Human TWF and more fun to play then my Dwarf Tempest Ranger, who is also fun to play.
Just throwing it out there.
Yes, certain styles are becoming too prominent, but don't discount the fact that people can come up with imaginative and functional combinations that can equal the current uber builds.
He's not a Pure Paladin, only 12 levels of Paladin and 4 levels of other classes, but that's the equal to the 12 levels of Ranger or Fighter or Barbarian Builds I see constantly.
He Smites for a little over 400 at times. His LOH's Heal for 150. He has Evasion. And he can get his AC to 56 (58 if he wants to sacrifice DPS slots with AC slots) currently, self-buffed while TWFing. Although, I mostly run around with a 44 self-buffed TWF DPS mode and find that to be sufficient.
And although he doesn't have a WoP, he does have a +2 Wounding Rapier of Parrying and a +2 Puncturing Rapier of Cursespewing, so he does pretty good stat damage, equal to any TWF Fighter and only slightly behind a Tempest Ranger or Crit Raged TWF Barb with equal gear.
No, I'm not going to break down his stats and Feat makeup- he's unique and I plan on keeping him that way.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

Keep in mind that I am a part of a guild that will play whatever class we want.

I still have some of the 'non-prominant builds'

In our guild, we played crows control bards to an art form. Everyone of us new bard
party etiquette.

Even in the group I run with, I am watching people try to figure out what their place
in the party is anymore.

Give me monsters with high saves to CC and songs not immunities. Give me a reason
to have a shield in my off hand.

You know..... I don't have the whole answer, but blanket immunites are not good.


I would like to see the 'Iron Maiden' spell from diablo 2 be put into this game. This
was a fighters' worst nightmare! When the spell was cast on you, you would do
2x the damage you dealt back to yourself. This would cause mindless fighters
to stop fighting longenough for the spell to wear off. This would mix it up a bit and be
very interesting or comical.

[VirieSquichie]

As the game progresses we are getting more and more choices available to us as
far as races, classes, and builds within those classes. However, It seems to me that
many of these choices are not so viable. Actually it seems if some of our old choices
have decreased in effectiveness to a point that it is not a valid choice at all.

HPS (heal per second)
DPS (damage per second)
SPS (spells or spell damage per second)

Gone are the days of the crowd control sorcerer.

Much of the finesse and technique is gone from the game after level 12.

Several of my now dead characters feel the same as you. One was a CC/buff oriented wizard - clouds and enchantments were her favorite things. I'm still bitter about her assassination.

Read the new D&D 4.0 rules yet? Welcome to the new millenium...

No, and from what a great many people have said who *have* read them, I'm glad DDO is based off 3.5 and unlikely to significantly depart from it. If I wanted everything cookie-cuttered for me I wouldn't be playing a D&D-based game, I'd still be playing Gauntlet. (feeling sick at the thought)

I wonder what people will say when I stop soloing or guild grouping with my heavy repeater cleric.

There will be much sadness, MrCow. But then, the character's effectiveness lies mostly within the player's skill, so we know you'll rock just about any build you choose to make. What would be called gimp when played by others will still shine when you or another similarly skilled player drives it.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

I just feel like the game mechanics will take care of a good portion of the things that
the devs put immunities in for.

For example:

Most monsters above level 12 have spell resistance.

This means that to get them to dance, I have to roll against their Spell Resistance.
Then they have to fail their will save. Then they will get another will save at whatever
the spell is set for. This seems like a fair deal to me even though I know that the
monsters have better saves, more sp, and more hp than the players. The mechanic is
already built into the game for the monsters to save from my spells. Let them use their
saves.

If you look at perform, I think my bards perform iss 49 or 50. That means an enemy
would have to roll against a 50-69 to save. If the enemy had a will save of 30, it would
only be able to save on a 20. However, we know that the enemies have better saves
than we do. So figure the enemy has a 40 will save (which sounds absurd), then the
fascinate only works 50% of the time on average. This sounds fair for a level
appropriate quest.


It just seems that the game is already set up to handle this stuff and their is no need
for blanket immunities.

[Zenako]

If you look at perform, I think my bards perform iss 49 or 50. That means an enemy
would have to roll against a 50-69 to save. If the enemy had a will save of 30, it would
only be able to save on a 20. However, we know that the enemies have better saves
than we do. So figure the enemy has a 40 will save (which sounds absurd), then the
fascinate only works 50% of the time on average. This sounds fair for a level
appropriate quest..

Actually the odds of the mobs saving is a LOT worse than that.

If you have a DC of 50+D20 vs a Mob with a WILL SAVE of 40+d20, then fully half the time they have no chance to save when they roll a 10 or less on their d20. If they roll an 11, it only succeeds if you rolled a 1 on your d20. So it they roll an 11 it is only 5% of the time that will be enough to save. On a 15 for them, you have to have rolled a 5 or less, so even then it is only a 25% chance.

What this boils down to is that a mob with a Will save of 40 vs a Fascinate with a base of 50 woul have a 13.75% chance of actually saving/resisting the effect.

[Strakeln]

Open the door.
Solve the puzzle.
Beat up the enemy. (You can cast a spell here if you want)

ROFL!

Classic

[Strakeln]

We have some sort of caster, preferably a wizard.

/spits out soda

Wait, am I in the NWN forums or something? I thought I was in DDO...

[Cold_Stele]

SOunds like a burnout post to me.....

Can't understand why you'd correct the OP and tell him THF Barbs are extinct too and then accuse him of making a burnout post.

His point is exactly that, the end game has made so many builds extinct...

[sirgog]

Can't understand why you'd correct the OP and tell him THF Barbs are extinct too and then accuse him of making a burnout post.

His point is exactly that, the end game has made so many builds extinct...

Any melee without Evasion is pretty much extinct now. Of the three hardest endgame challenges (Enter Kobold last room, Stealer of Souls fire room, Prey on the Hunter Kalijarne fight), Evasion is godly in the first two and good (albeit not crucial) in the third.

I'd rather a 2HF Barb14/Rog2 to a 2WF Barb14/Rgr2 at current endgame by a LONG way, although this wasn't the case in mod 6 or 7. (That said, I'll take a 2WF Brb14/Rog2 over both )

[VonBek]

Gone are the days ...

So, what's the solution? How do you get away from the choreographed quest solutions and opti-maxxie builds and move on to the fun?

[Zenix_Leviticus]

Actually the odds of the mobs saving is a LOT worse than that.

If you have a DC of 50+D20 vs a Mob with a WILL SAVE of 40+d20, then fully half the time they have no chance to save when they roll a 10 or less on their d20. If they roll an 11, it only succeeds if you rolled a 1 on your d20. So it they roll an 11 it is only 5% of the time that will be enough to save. On a 15 for them, you have to have rolled a 5 or less, so even then it is only a 25% chance.

What this boils down to is that a mob with a Will save of 40 vs a Fascinate with a base of 50 woul have a 13.75% chance of actually saving/resisting the effect.

Ah yes... I was only considering one side of the roll.

For every song I use on fascinate, that is one less buff the group can get. Then
we accomplish nothing, in most cases, by just fascinating the enemy. Now we have
to wake them up by hitting them.

Now all of this sounds pretty powerful until you consider that you have to get 5 to
11 other zerging gamers to only hit one at a time.


There is a whole bunch of stuff to get right just to pull off this over powered skill.



Don't get me wrong. I am not saying I hate the game or I am quiting. I am just saying
that it is dissapointing to see several classes get gimped this way.


All this gets me thinking about the posibility of a Dwarven Tempest Warchanter

or....

Dwarven Tempest Warchanter Monk


Can it be done when the level cap goes up?

[Zenix_Leviticus]

So, what's the solution? How do you get away from the choreographed quest solutions and opti-maxxie builds and move on to the fun?

Now that is really the question isn't it..


For one, I would say lift blanket immunities and let the saving throws and spell
resistance work. This would instantly give people more than one option for completing
quests. If an enemy is immune to something because they have a spell cast on them,
I can understand that. However, spells should have a chance to be dispelled. The
other enemies always have the option to recast the orginal spell (they do have
infinite spell points). This is what we have to do.

As far as dex based (weapons finnese) melee, I don't know that much can be done
for them because they will always have to overcome damage reduction. This actually
seems fair, but people should be warned on character creation that weapons finesse
path is a difficult one.

I still don't know what could be done about sword and board fighters.


I have a problem when a game lets you create a character with all these skills, spells,
and abilities only to be nullified later by blanket immunities.

Let the game mechanics work as intended.