How many classes do we really have?

[Cahira]

or....

Dwarven Tempest Warchanter Monk


Can it be done when the level cap goes up?

I figure you already know this...but just a reminder that Monks have to be lawful...and bards have to be non-lawful.



And as a person who has 4 bards that she plays (I have a lvl 16 spellsinger, a 12/1 (barb) warchanter, a 12 virtuoso, and a 9/2 bard/rogue), I have been increasingly disillusioned about the effectiveness of bard CC in the current end game.

I, also, am not a fan of the blanket immunities. I don't mind the mobs having spells that they cast that make them immune to stuff. I keep Greater Dispell just for that purpose. My husband's wizard and I work well together in Enter the Kobold...we see the shamans cast death ward on themselves, and I spend a few spells trying to get rid of it.

Sometimes, the fighters can beat the guy down before our combo of Dispell/FoD. Sometimes we can get the shaman first. But it's an enjoyable mechanic...and it's something that my CC bard can do.

But I can't do anything about blanket immunities. And that becomes frustrating to me.

I'm not worried about my warchanter...there will always be something that she can swing her Greatswords at. But my spellsinger and virtuoso are quickly becoming obsolete in the newest quests.

This makes me very sad about the direction of the game.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

I actually didn't even think about the alignments as I was just typing as I was thinking.

So I guess I will have to take the Monk off of it.

I need to check the character planner and see if there are enough action points to
do this.

Dwarven Tempest Warchanter - Sounds like the Bard of the future.....

[Gol]

Gone are the days of the repeater crossbow fighter, ranger, or bard.

Rangers?

Ranged Combat, yes. But the class is arguably the best melee classes in the game.

[Xanthrawl]

Rangers?

Ranged Combat, yes. But the class is arguably the best melee classes in the game.

I believe he meant Rangers who use a Heavy Repeaing Crossbow...

[VirieSquichie]

Now that is really the question isn't it..


For one, I would say lift blanket immunities and let the saving throws and spell
resistance work. This would instantly give people more than one option for completing
quests. If an enemy is immune to something because they have a spell cast on them,
I can understand that. However, spells should have a chance to be dispelled. The
other enemies always have the option to recast the orginal spell (they do have
infinite spell points). This is what we have to do.

I still don't know what could be done about sword and board fighters.

I have a problem when a game lets you create a character with all these skills, spells,
and abilities only to be nullified later by blanket immunities.

Let the game mechanics work as intended.

/signed

Many of the immunities and other monster-side exploits are knee-jerk reactions to the players finding ways of prevailing that the devs didn't intend, and aren't comfortable with.

Cloudkill is a perfect example...monsters shouldn't just have stood there and died, but apparently they felt it was too difficult to code them to move around or seek out the caster, so now the spells last a ridiculously short duration and create instant homing aggro on the caster, wherever he/she may be and no matter how hidden. Oh, and gates now have glass or something between the bars because we can't have the players using terrain to their advantage, now can we? Couldn't just have the monsters open the gate from their side and come thump the nasty adventurers who are trying to Orkin them...

[Josh]

I have a problem when a game lets you create a character with all these skills, spells, and abilities only to be nullified later by blanket immunities.

One of the hallmarks of a "bad" DM in PnP is doing just this. In fact, it specifically mentions it in the DMG. You never take away abilities from PC's. Turbine has been guilty of doing this for a long, long time. In fact, they not only take away PC's abilities, but they give enemies abilities that they have no reason to have at all (infinite mana, spammy knockdown attacks from wolves and cats, air elemental knockdown, undead beholders that are mysteriously immune to fire, beholders that are just broken, named mobs in shroud with improved stunning blow?, creatures with evasion that have no business having it like mephits and cats in the refuge) other than to make the game more "challenging". We're seeing it more and more, blanket immunities across the board. Pretty soon every quest is going to be nothing but red named mobs.

[Mindspat]

HPS (heal per second)
DPS (damage per second)
SPS (spells or spell damage per second)

This would be a terrible allusion.

I suspect that these figures are nearly capped and what we could witness is more diveristy beyond linear builds and playstyles. The catch is we'll start seeing more and more whinny posts about new items which dont, but should, apply to every "fotm" to date with strong support simply voicing "reroll". It could have the affect of bringing down AC, reducing DPS, etc, by introducing more miscelansous bonuses that have a less centric application.

Min/Max is not a good way to play a game. It limits dynamics and provides for static experiances. The best thing DDO has had to offer needs to build upon it and that is Diversity and Dynamics; D&D.

[Varr]

For arguments sake Im going to take a different position then the op here. The game design and character development options are not the problem here in my opionon, the op and I and the rest of the player base is the problem. No mater how hard they try to make everything vanilla and equal, there simply must be a best of in dps and healing and the like..............and as players it is not rediculas to use the tools before us to create the best of when spending a lot of time playing said creation. There is nothing wrong with s/b and mechnic rogues and battle sorcs and cc'ing bards................except they are not the cream of the crop in a min max quest domination type of way. Which makes them less attractive to play genericly, even though they can be more fun. A party of flawed second tiered builds run well can add a dimention to the game that adds flavor while not hampering success. Sure said party, will do 9 quests in the time it take a tier 1 team to do 12, and every one wants the lion share of there characters on that tier 1 team........

Hum..........I like what Im thinking here, but getting board of typing it and trying to phrase it correclty...........ah well

[Mindspat]

/signed

Many of the immunities and other monster-side exploits are knee-jerk reactions to the players finding ways of prevailing that the devs didn't intend, and aren't comfortable with.

Cloudkill is a perfect example...monsters shouldn't just have stood there and died, but apparently they felt it was too difficult to code them to move around or seek out the caster, so now the spells last a ridiculously short duration and create instant homing aggro on the caster, wherever he/she may be and no matter how hidden. Oh, and gates now have glass or something between the bars because we can't have the players using terrain to their advantage, now can we? Couldn't just have the monsters open the gate from their side and come thump the nasty adventurers who are trying to Orkin them...

The person who's been responsible for Blanket Immunities should be taken out back, kicked between the legs, drug through the office, giving a pink slip then thrown out in the street. It's pure idiociy and proof of qualified reasoning skills being absent. All it does is punish and promote lazy development with minimal content balancing. This breaks all concepts of proper game mechanics and severly goes against the basic principle of Game Play and Fun.

As for Cloud Kill, the spell still works and the duration is fine. The only downfall is many of the mobs have inflated stats which the spell does not scale in comparison. If Cloud Kill scaled in stat damage as the caster advanced in levels, the most logical application of how this game is being desinged, the spell would be even more usefull other then for the soloist who's not in a rush.

[Deathseeker]

For arguments sake Im going to take a different position then the op here. The game design and character development options are not the problem here in my opionon, the op and I and the rest of the player base is the problem. No mater how hard they try to make everything vanilla and equal, there simply must be a best of in dps and healing and the like..............and as players it is not rediculas to use the tools before us to create the best of when spending a lot of time playing said creation. There is nothing wrong with s/b and mechnic rogues and battle sorcs and cc'ing bards................except they are not the cream of the crop in a min max quest domination type of way. Which makes them less attractive to play genericly, even though they can be more fun. A party of flawed second tiered builds run well can add a dimention to the game that adds flavor while not hampering success. Sure said party, will do 9 quests in the time it take a tier 1 team to do 12, and every one wants the lion share of there characters on that tier 1 team........

Hum..........I like what Im thinking here, but getting board of typing it and trying to phrase it correclty...........ah well

I totally agree with your point, once I decyphered your paragraph

What is wrong with having build options that arent as powerful as the "primary" options? Why not try something a little less common, even if it's a bigger challenge? Ranged build, CC build, stealth build, etc.

Part of the problem isn't the game design, it's the prevalent attitude that if a build isn't "supreme", it isnt worth playing.

And then of course we complain we ran out of things to do with our "supreme" builds.

Very good point Varr!

[Mindspat]

One of the hallmarks of a "bad" DM in PnP is doing just this. In fact, it specifically mentions it in the DMG. You never take away abilities from PC's. Turbine has been guilty of doing this for a long, long time. In fact, they not only take away PC's abilities, but they give enemies abilities that they have no reason to have at all (infinite mana, spammy knockdown attacks from wolves and cats, air elemental knockdown, undead beholders that are mysteriously immune to fire, beholders that are just broken, named mobs in shroud with improved stunning blow?, creatures with evasion that have no business having it like mephits and cats in the refuge) other than to make the game more "challenging". We're seeing it more and more, blanket immunities across the board. Pretty soon every quest is going to be nothing but red named mobs.

Completely agree, if Turbine were a DM their dice would have been taken away a LONG time ago. It's preposterous and indictive of a crappy kid being a DM that cheats while enforcing a Monty Hall campaign. It's frustrating, un-fun and entirely illogical.

I've been seeing more and more mobs with Evasion. I've figured it was an attempt to function as a hidden form of another blanket immunity to counter Cone of Cold. Afterall, it's fire elementals along with fire mephits that are appearing with Evasion, not to mention many other mob types which never had it before.

[Mindspat]

There is nothing wrong with s/b and mechnic rogues and battle sorcs and cc'ing bards................except they are not the cream of the crop in a min max quest domination type of way. Which makes them less attractive to play genericly, even though they can be more fun. A party of flawed second tiered builds run well can add a dimention to the game that adds flavor while not hampering success.

Min/Max is extremely easy to design for. In many cases it becomes as simple as "it is" or "it isn't". The problem with the player base isn't bad other then so many of us fail to identify the usefullness of dynamics and opt out for simplistic cookie cutter builds that equate a "fotm" to provide the most dps. I refuse to believe this is the player's fault since we're only reacting to the limited mechanics and narrowly designed boss encounters; ie, dps or nothing.

Agreeably, the game has been losing a lot of it's dynamics due to inflated statistics and blanket immunities. I find this very unfortunate because the one thing DDO had above every other MMO was in fact its dynamics.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Dwarven Tempest Warchanter - Sounds like the Bard of the future.....

I never understood why anyone thought this would be a good build. It is utterly gimped.

[honkuimushi]

I actually didn't even think about the alignments as I was just typing as I was thinking.

So I guess I will have to take the Monk off of it.

I need to check the character planner and see if there are enough action points to
do this.

Dwarven Tempest Warchanter - Sounds like the Bard of the future.....

Tempest Warchanter is doable, but while it has some very good upsides, it also has some real downsides. I'll assume an endgame Ranger 12/ Bard 8, which I think is the strongets build. The biggest problem is feats. It reqires 5 feats, but humans only get 8 and all other races get 7.

So after getting Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus, and Power Attack, you have 2 or 3 feats left. Improved Critical is almost required. Toughness is very nice, especially since Rangers only get a d8 for HP. Extend spell is really nice for buffs, especially if you cast Haste and Displacement alot. Both are short term buffs and you only have a caster level of 8. But that leaves no room for Khopeshes, OTWF, Mental Toughness, any tactical feats, Cleave or Weapon Finesse if you go the Dex route. You also wouldn't have much room if Prectice Spellcaster is ever added.

You also have some stat juggling to do. If you want to cast ranger spells, you need to put at least a couple of points in Wisdom. You can get TWF without much Dex, but you need at least a 13 for Dodge and keeping it too low makes your evasion less effective.

And probably the biggest issue is how late you get your abilities. If you go for the requied feats first, you can get both Tempest I and Warchanter at level 12, but forgoing some of the other feats you want may meke you less effective at first. You could use Fred, but it would take a fair amount of shards, cash and time to do a full respec. If you started 6/6 then went Ranger to 11 then Bard to 8, you would get evasion at level 15. You wouldn't get GTWF till level 17. And you wouldn't get Haste, Good Hope, or Displacement until 18. And you wouldn't maximise your song until level 19. So you would be pretty weak until level 11 or 12, then you would see a pretty big jump in power, then a slow rise to 17, followed by large increases from 17 to 20.

I see it as a good build for powergamers who have the loot and tomes to outfit it and raid enough to count on certain gear and the connections to get into raids even before becomming truly effective. For everyone else, it might be frustrating to level, but with a nice reward once the cap goes up.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Tempest Warchanter is doable

lol

No.

Edit: was in quest so couldn't elaborate. Tempest warchanter is gimped, and anyone who knows bards would know this. The primary advantage of a warchanter is boosting to hit and damage, however, by mixing non-bard levels you lose much of this, especially with so many non-bard levels.

[Zenix_Leviticus]

To answers Varr's point,

I don't have a problem with one class having the number 1 dps or best of anything. I
have a problem when you take a practiced ability away from a character for no reason.

Think of it this way. What if they added a new area on the mod 9 where all the mobs
were immune to physical damage. Maybe they could be CC'd, but they couldn't be
damaged with weapons at all. You would have to get a mage to kill all of the enemies.
Of course this would be crazy, but this is like the character that takes spell
penetration, greater spell penetration, spell focus enchantment, and spell penetration
enhancements only to find out that a quest or area is completely immune to his
spells. Especially when the class is only offered a couple of choices for offensive spells
from the beginning.


I once had a character with the #1 crowd control ability in the game. This ability
was given immunity in the Vale and extended into the new area. Everywhere there is
an extreme strength, there is also an extreme weakness. This same character had
very low dps and relied on wounding, puncturing, vorpal, gtr banes, and paralyze to
be effective from a melee standpoint. Red and Purple names are immune to this
character's weapons and his spells. Now trash mobs are getting immunites for no good
reason.


To answer Wizzly Bear and Honkuimushi,

I would argue that the STR dps, haste, good hope, and songs that a gimped Tempest
Warchanter might have, would still be better at high level content than a Spellsinger,
Virtuoso, or Straight CC Bard.

I have a Tempest Dwarf and realize the amount of damage this build brings to the
table. I would think you wouldn't play the Warchanter Tempest as a tempest as much
as you would play him as a bard with slightly better dps ability. I would think about
it like this

14 Bard/6 Ranger

This would give you GH, haste, blurr, rams might, barkskin, resistance spells. It would
give you better dps than your typical Sword and board CC Bard.

It would not be in the same league as a 14 Ranger/2 Fighter, but it would be better
dps than older bard builds.


I think a better option would just be to let the monsters use the game mechanics and
let all the older CC builds have a chance at doing something other than buff bots and
healing from scrolls.

[honkuimushi]

lol

No.

Edit: was in quest so couldn't elaborate. Tempest warchanter is gimped, and anyone who knows bards would know this. The primary advantage of a warchanter is boosting to hit and damage, however, by mixing non-bard levels you lose much of this, especially with so many non-bard levels.

You miss out on the increase to Inspire Courage(ed.) at level 14 and enhancements at levels 12 and 13 that increase damage and attack by 1 point for 3 and 6 APs respectively. I don't think many Warchanters will get the increase at level 20. A level 8 Warchanter still gets a +5 to attack and +6 to Damage. It's not the highest possible, but it's still pretty good and makes up for the loss of 2 BAB, especially with the increase in SP, new buffs and unlocking of UMD and other skills.

You don't get Inspire Greatness, but since that only effects 1 person per song, it's expensive without more Bard levels and it's hard to justify the extra level. Where I see the real sacrifice is in spells and how late all your abilities come together. I agree, you're pretty gimped for the first 10 levels or so. But at level 20, i think it will be pretty strong. It's probably best to think of Ranger 12/ Bard 8 as a Ranger + rather than a Bard -.

The Ranger 6/ Bard 14 is another interesting choice that gets pretty much all the song buffs of a bard, but loses level 6 spells, evasion and requires 17 dex and a feat for GTWF. Not gimped, but definately feat starved and lacking in flexability.

[Wizzly_Bear]

To answer Wizzly Bear and Honkuimushi,

I would argue that the STR dps, haste, good hope, and songs that a gimped Tempest
Warchanter might have, would still be better at high level content than a Spellsinger,
Virtuoso, or Straight CC Bard.

Strength is irrelevant as any build can have an equivalent value.

Individual dps may be slightly higher than a pure bard, but overall party contribution of dps is at best equal, and probably lower than a pure bard (and definitely weaker than a pure bard warchanter).

Haste is of a much shorter duration.

Good hope is indeed the same, but doesn't matter. Good hope is only used to remove crushing despair and such, so who really cares.

[Wizzly_Bear]

It's probably best to think of Ranger 12/ Bard 8 as a Ranger + rather than a Bard -.

I would think of it as a Ranger -. You lose 2 favored enemies, some ac from barkskin, and at least 1 rank of favored damage for an average song that could easily be beat by any other bard. You also run the risk of losing Tempest 2 and 3.

[kingfisher]

why are their so many complaints? its seems to me that people have a problem with how the player base adapts to the game the devs make and refine. there is so much focus on the 'best build' and the perception that there is only one way to play the game. this is 100% against the entire idea of DnD. how can all of these people who love DnD be hellbent on making this representation of DnD so oppoiste of its original concept?

you find a build/character you like, find some peeps, hit the road, kill some baddies, rescue the wench, etc. where does "must have WOP" or "must have max intimidate" come into play?

the point is to have fun playing the game, and what builds are teh uberest are not important. if you wanna build that toon, great, have fun. if you dont, great, have fun. the quests are to hard without that type of build you say? ******** i say. the classes are SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFERENT and bring different things to the table. use your head and figure out a different way to do it. who cares about maximizing the amount of loot, ingreds, xp, favor, or whatever you get while you play??? that sounds like a ****ing job to me man. this is a video game not a job. this is about fun. tell me that yall dont have stories about that time you and the weird party makeup totally pwnd suchnsuch quest? you remember those cause they were fun.

jesus christ