I'll never defend Turbine again.

[DoctorWhofan]

I would not call myself a hardcore gamer, I take months off at time. But I am more then a casual gamer, I am elite casual gamer. I like stuff to be hard, and I love DDO, it seemed silly for me that reaver was so easy.

However,.... There is a big glaring problem in DDO, basically the casual gamer cannot keep up with the Hardcore and Elite Gamer and it makes it less fun. Reason why alot of Guilds don't run with Pugs is cause they say they are noobs or dont listen, or dont know what they are doing.

Real Reason, this game is tough, its complicated and it gets almost exponentially hard as you go on. This is for a couple of reasons.

1. D&D 3.5 is not a balanced system. It is a good system, but it is not balanced throughout the levels. 4.0 (lover it or hate it) was designed with this in mind and spreads the sweet spot out over the levels for all classes (something 3.5 definitely does not do).

2. DDO does not have the bredth of PnP, the class, enchancement, and prestige systems basically only have as much as the Turbine can crank out at anyone time, so more than likely there will always be at least one class that is gimped and complains. This is ontop of the already unbalanced class roles in 3.5.

3. DDO is based on a D20 system, but unlike many D20 systems, the roll of the dice is weighted down. Basically what I am saying is with all the pluses you can get with the enhancements and items, the roll of the dice has less weight then it does in traditional PnP. This helps to further unbalance the classes.

4. DDO is a monty haul campaign, and will probably always be because most MMOs are and thats what people expect. However, in monty haul systems there will always be the uber hardcore gamer and the casual gamer gap. The goal here however should be to create multiple ways to bridge the gap so that the HARDCORE gamers have an advantage but not signifigantly so. It really all comes down to math, and if you have a D20 system, with some deviations between the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer equal +10 difference your going to have problems. You just cannot scale adventures for that large a deviation. The problem is the system, not Turbine, not the players.

I disagree. I am a casual gamer and I am having fun. While your reasoning is valid, the truth is, many casual players ARE having fun. We find things that we like to make it fun. Yeah I have 2 accounts and 1 capped toon, it doesn't matter. I am having FUN. Logic goes out the door, when emotion is attached. Yeah the Reaver is harder. Oh well. We'll figure it out eventually. Humans like solving problems, and this is one problem that will be fixed. Heck, a bunch of Japanese figured out the Abbott. Granted, they were NOT casual Gamers, doesn't mean it cannot be done or it is unbeatable.


Or the quest starts not to be played. Turbine will notice that.

[ChronosWolf]

theblaz: It sounds like your burnt out. You should take a break from DDO. Try another game maybe or play a console system for awhile.

I played DDO from first day for a few months, then left a year or so..came back, stayed a week...left again for a year..then came back and am having some fun.

I haven't hit the end game..hell I haven't hit 10 yet. It sucks playing by yourself.

Just take a break from DDO. Come back and maybe things will be better.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I would not call myself a hardcore gamer, I take months off at time. But I am more then a casual gamer, I am elite casual gamer. I like stuff to be hard, and I love DDO, it seemed silly for me that reaver was so easy.

However,.... There is a big glaring problem in DDO, basically the casual gamer cannot keep up with the Hardcore and Elite Gamer and it makes it less fun. Reason why alot of Guilds don't run with Pugs is cause they say they are noobs or dont listen, or dont know what they are doing.

Real Reason, this game is tough, its complicated and it gets almost exponentially hard as you go on. This is for a couple of reasons.

1. D&D 3.5 is not a balanced system. It is a good system, but it is not balanced throughout the levels. 4.0 (lover it or hate it) was designed with this in mind and spreads the sweet spot out over the levels for all classes (something 3.5 definitely does not do).

2. DDO does not have the bredth of PnP, the class, enchancement, and prestige systems basically only have as much as the Turbine can crank out at anyone time, so more than likely there will always be at least one class that is gimped and complains. This is ontop of the already unbalanced class roles in 3.5.

3. DDO is based on a D20 system, but unlike many D20 systems, the roll of the dice is weighted down. Basically what I am saying is with all the pluses you can get with the enhancements and items, the roll of the dice has less weight then it does in traditional PnP. This helps to further unbalance the classes.

4. DDO is a monty haul campaign, and will probably always be because most MMOs are and thats what people expect. However, in monty haul systems there will always be the uber hardcore gamer and the casual gamer gap. The goal here however should be to create multiple ways to bridge the gap so that the HARDCORE gamers have an advantage but not signifigantly so. It really all comes down to math, and if you have a D20 system, with some deviations between the casual gamer and the hardcore gamer equal +10 difference your going to have problems. You just cannot scale adventures for that large a deviation. The problem is the system, not Turbine, not the players.

I agree with you 100% .. all you need to do is play any other game on the market to realize this. Is being hit 95% of the time vs. being hit 5% of the time balanced? Is killing something in 5 hits vs. killing something in 25 hits balanced? It is not .. there will never be another MMO based on 3.5 or anything resembling it I am fairly certain.

Having said that, Turbine has done an amazing job implementing the elements of D&D that are really great .. namely spells, puzzles, traps and monsters! I did about 6 Garomel runs tonight and they were fun because of 1) Undead giant skeletons 2) Flying up and down a shaft 3) Being blasted with traps whilst doing #2, and not because someone in the group was one-shotting the undead giants while not getting hit (even though they were). Perhaps that is the focus of more puzzles in the new content .. to remind everyone that D&D was about what's between your ears, not what's between your legs

[ChronosWolf]

to remind everyone that D&D was about what's between your ears, not what's between your legs

Darn, really? I guess I need to stop "Roleplaying" with what's between my legs.

[Phidius]

Yeah, I've tried enervation... piece of cake to hit 12+ air elementals with Enervate as they toss me around the room. Make sure you get (and keep) your charge within 20 seconds of aggroing the Reaver, 'cause they show up a lot faster than they used to.

In testing, it seems that (on Normal), you have to hit them with 4-5 enervates before they will fail their FoD save (29 Fort save). Only kept track of it twice, as I was kinda busy staying alive, but it seems consistent with the other times.

Frankly, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I used to enjoy this quest, and now it's become just another raid to grind. I'm certainly not going to run it after I get all the named items I'm looking for.

[Lehrman]

Wow, this threads not locked yet? The cube must be napping...

[Voalkrynn2]

First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

Honestly, I'm sorry.

I've defended this game because my old PnP group was playing it, and because we met some cool people in the game. We all had fun doing our thing. We were so not uber, it was almost crazy. I'm done only 3 raids ever (VoN, Shroud, Reaver). Two capped characters, my main is still my first 28 pt build. Less than 2000 favor.

Our loot runs are From beyond the grave, sleeping dust, vale rares. Nothing special. A month ago I went ape**** when I won the Reaver Napkin on my main.

I say all that to give you an idea of how I play the game and how I'm not burned out, how I'm not at the very very end waiting for new content. I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm very casual.

Tonight, I've almost certainly made up my mind to leave the game.

First, we did the Shroud. Pug group, competent people. A couple of whiny people, but I expected nothing less (I know their guilds; bunch of crybabies). It was at least 5 times harder than it was before Mod 8. I had a 22k repair bill. It took us around 2 hours.

Yeah, I know uber people can beat it in 16 minutes, super duper. Don't care, shut up. This isn't about how awesome you are, this is about how a casual player with several good friends in the game is ready to leave when, yesterday, he spent much time defending this game.

So it took forever but we beat the Shroud.

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

I'm not looking for Icy Rainments, I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard, I'm just looking to have fun with the PnP group I used to spend my Thursday nights with before they all moved away.

Yeah, we can still play. Sleeping dust for the 50th time, what fun.

Running with the devils? Not after the ellie changes.

Ritual Sacrifice? Yeah, 25 runs and still fresh.

Rainbow? Screw that.

Coalescence? Screw that with a rusty railroad spike.

In their zeal to make things more "challenging" Turbine has made the game un-fun.

Even if we failed, I've ALWAYS had fun playing with my friends.

Tonight, we beat the shroud and it ****ing SUCKED.

Tonight, we failed like 4 times on the Reaver, and each one ****ing SUCKED.

So, undoubtedly getting more infraction points, thanks for nothing, Tubrine.

You ****ed up this game to the point where I will never ever defend it again.

And ask around, I defended the **** out of this game.

In closing, I'm almost certainly not re-upping my subscription. If I do, it's because my PnP group convinced me to until the tabletop online game comes out.

Way to go, Turbine. Way to not test anything, way to not take casual players into account, and in summation, way to **** up this game.

No more defenses from me, and no more dollars from me.

Big middle finger to you all.

Dude...............
First I feel your pain, I tried to do that new quest, Prey of the something or other, 3 times and the **** dragon died everytime we were 1/2 way thru the maze. We did not fight everything it is a beech unless you are über. In addition, I ran the Reaver and getting constantly knocked down does in fact blow donkey balls. If this game is only fun/runs are gonna be successful if you have a ueber build and run everything until you can do it sleeping then I as a casual player will stop having fun.

Second with a comment like "slapping my nuts on the keyboard" you gotta keep playing that is some funny sheet. PM me with your server and alts I will keep playing to hear commentary like that even if we can only be successful in Water Works :-).

Casual player experience has in fact diminished with the release of the last 2 mods...... please make this enjoyable for ALL players!

[Magnyr_Delorn]

I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard

Oh God, I lol'ed

[Thame]

I have complained about this myself on these forums. Unfortunately nothing will ever change on this. While I totally agree with you, its just the way its going to be and no amount of complaining, griping will change their direction with this.

On a side note, all these people on here that say stop complaining apparently think they are the forums police. Ignore em.........they are called trooooooooooooooooooolllls

First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

Honestly, I'm sorry.

I've defended this game because my old PnP group was playing it, and because we met some cool people in the game. We all had fun doing our thing. We were so not uber, it was almost crazy. I'm done only 3 raids ever (VoN, Shroud, Reaver). Two capped characters, my main is still my first 28 pt build. Less than 2000 favor.

Our loot runs are From beyond the grave, sleeping dust, vale rares. Nothing special. A month ago I went ape**** when I won the Reaver Napkin on my main.

I say all that to give you an idea of how I play the game and how I'm not burned out, how I'm not at the very very end waiting for new content. I'm not a hardcore raider, I'm very casual.

Tonight, I've almost certainly made up my mind to leave the game.

First, we did the Shroud. Pug group, competent people. A couple of whiny people, but I expected nothing less (I know their guilds; bunch of crybabies). It was at least 5 times harder than it was before Mod 8. I had a 22k repair bill. It took us around 2 hours.

Yeah, I know uber people can beat it in 16 minutes, super duper. Don't care, shut up. This isn't about how awesome you are, this is about how a casual player with several good friends in the game is ready to leave when, yesterday, he spent much time defending this game.

So it took forever but we beat the Shroud.

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

I'm not looking for Icy Rainments, I'm not looking to be crazy uber and 2 man the shroud by slapping my nuts on the keyboard, I'm just looking to have fun with the PnP group I used to spend my Thursday nights with before they all moved away.

Yeah, we can still play. Sleeping dust for the 50th time, what fun.

Running with the devils? Not after the ellie changes.

Ritual Sacrifice? Yeah, 25 runs and still fresh.

Rainbow? Screw that.

Coalescence? Screw that with a rusty railroad spike.

In their zeal to make things more "challenging" Turbine has made the game un-fun.

Even if we failed, I've ALWAYS had fun playing with my friends.

Tonight, we beat the shroud and it ****ing SUCKED.

Tonight, we failed like 4 times on the Reaver, and each one ****ing SUCKED.

So, undoubtedly getting more infraction points, thanks for nothing, Tubrine.

You ****ed up this game to the point where I will never ever defend it again.

And ask around, I defended the **** out of this game.

In closing, I'm almost certainly not re-upping my subscription. If I do, it's because my PnP group convinced me to until the tabletop online game comes out.

Way to go, Turbine. Way to not test anything, way to not take casual players into account, and in summation, way to **** up this game.

No more defenses from me, and no more dollars from me.

Big middle finger to you all.

[Borror0]

I spent some time prior to mod 8 arguing that it is in Turbine's economic interest to scale quests so that normal is doable by casual players, hard by casual but good players and elite by top quality players. That was countered by a couple of very active posters who insisted that Turbine's focus is the high end, top flight player group.

I had argued that their estimates indicated only 10% of the population was in this top group so catering to them did not make good sense. I even pointed to the revamped introduction section in the NPE as proof that Turbine's focus was on the estimated 65% of us who are casual gamers.

That is not what you said.

You said that balance is unimportant and that we shouldn't feel the need to balance. Then, no matter how often we explained to you that it was in the interest of the casual gamers to have a balanced game or that it IS in Turbine's interest to appeal to BOTH casual and hardcore gamers at the same time.

You didn't like that argument. So, in order to prove your point made up some random numbers to prove your point, claiming that your numbers represent the reality.

Turbine doesn't want to loose its casual population. That would be a bad move. But, they don't want to loose their powergaming population either. That would be a bad move as well. It's a good thing for a game to appeal to different playstyles. If you want that to happen, you will need a balanced game.

However, you never wanted to understand that.

[Thame]

I was referring to your tone not the content. Because of all the yelling and swearing, .

I just have to ask...........how can one tell if someone is yelling on a forum? And how can u tell someones tone? LMAO

[noinfo]

First, let me start by apologizing to anyone who has criticized this game only to see me defending it and arguing with you.

...

Let's do reaver!

Yeah. Elite, wipe in like 2 minutes.

On normal, we manage to make it to the puzzle.

I'm the solver. I've spent hours practicing. I can solve the online version within 8 moves ALL the time, 6 moves most of the time.

I fail. Not because of the puzzle, but because the ****ing Air Elementals are tossing me around and I can't finish the puzzle.

We try again, can't even get to the puzzle (I think, I'm drinking at this point).

Again, we manage to get to the puzzle, the ****ing air ellies screw us again.

...

The problem with all of the "Updates" is that Turbines idea of making it harder is by increasing the difficulties of the mobs.

Does this make it harder? Yes for a lot of people it makes it harder in a way that is not "fun" increased spawn rates and mob types can achieve the same difficulty while keeping it fun.

[Uska]

hMM did rainbow its a pain maybe now but I like better since you cant really chesse it now, did running with the devils didnt seem any harder then before still like that quest, finally did reaver with a little fear thinking it might be harder well we had one caster a wf sorc and 3 clerics counting myself, well we did it just about as easy as before on elite, and yes there were more ele's tossing people around but noone died and they were slightly bothersome in the puzzle area, but I dont see any reason to jump on turbine I think all the changes were possitve in my mind.

[Uska]

You're right. I shouldn't use the public forum to post my opinion.

Thanks for calling me an ass, too. You clearly have a lot of value to offer to the conversation.

/laugh

While I dissagree with you, you do have the right to post your mind and there is no reason to call you names.

[Junts]

Yeah, I've tried enervation... piece of cake to hit 12+ air elementals with Enervate as they toss me around the room. Make sure you get (and keep) your charge within 20 seconds of aggroing the Reaver, 'cause they show up a lot faster than they used to.

In testing, it seems that (on Normal), you have to hit them with 4-5 enervates before they will fail their FoD save (29 Fort save). Only kept track of it twice, as I was kinda busy staying alive, but it seems consistent with the other times.

Frankly, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I used to enjoy this quest, and now it's become just another raid to grind. I'm certainly not going to run it after I get all the named items I'm looking for.

Quit FODing them! They have a huge fort save. They do not have huge will or reflex saves. We have had no issues with the Reaver (though it requires the whole party to play and not pike) by using dancing ball (still works a lright from a good caster) and firewalling them to death. Also, having your tanks get charges as well helps; they can help fight eles and keep aggro without the knockdown.

This raid is still not hard. It was a -joke- before. I was in a broken PUG reaver 2 days before the mod. The group was lead by a new player who had never played the raid and still forming. The group was 11 and 3 people weren't in yet - including the cleric and 2 of the casters, the other two of whom were level 15. The leader went afk, put their headset on the keyboard and hit autorun. They ran across, activated the reaver and died. 7 people were inside, no healer, a warforged tank, 2 casters, my pally, a rogue, a ranger and a barbarian.

One of the casters pulled out a random repair crit damage wand. I got a charge, put on my devotion item, and main healed the raid as a paladin.

We completed. In fact, no one else died. I only used 3 of my 4 lay on hands.

This raid was too easy before. Seriously. I know you guys are angry, but seriously. It was -that- easy.

You want to get angry about raid changes, talk about making the HoX harder on normal for no apparent reason (though still beatable easily with slight tactical changes we found, elite will be insane now)

[Uska]

Yeah, I've tried enervation... piece of cake to hit 12+ air elementals with Enervate as they toss me around the room. Make sure you get (and keep) your charge within 20 seconds of aggroing the Reaver, 'cause they show up a lot faster than they used to.

In testing, it seems that (on Normal), you have to hit them with 4-5 enervates before they will fail their FoD save (29 Fort save). Only kept track of it twice, as I was kinda busy staying alive, but it seems consistent with the other times.

Frankly, I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I used to enjoy this quest, and now it's become just another raid to grind. I'm certainly not going to run it after I get all the named items I'm looking for.

well we didnt have enverate used in our group on elite and it did take about 3-5 casts at least per elie but destruction still was working on elite and bb did help some there as well. For me the quest is more fun since people cant really pike anymore

[Uska]

if It Took 2 Hours To Run Shroud, It Was Not A Competent Group. It Happens, Deal With It.

Reaver, The Party Has To Change Tactics, And It Is Still Not To Difficult. It Was A Good Chance, It Makes More Of The Party Involved In The Quest.

Qft

[Uska]

I defend this critique.

Before the "mod" (notice that is in quotes, because this was a nerf, nothing else). I understand the reaver was way to easy...and the shroud may have been also.

However, I ran the reaver and the shroud once the mod was in, and with very competent groups...it's insane. I thought turbine wanted to make this game easier for people who never played an MMO or D&D? maybe with the newbie areas, but higher lvls, it's not even close.

What do they do, they nerf the **** out of the reaver, because the elite a-holes can run it in 5 /12 seconds (embellished). And instead of making it harder solely on elite, ALL versions are very difficult. Seriously on NORMAL, no CC works, no FoD, NOTHING. on NORMAL!! We've got a caster that has put a lot of focus into Spell Pen, and that doesn't even help.

Also, while nerfing the reaver, they make a subteranne boss a piece of cake, and now people are pulling +2 tomes on like an 8% chance. The run takes like 10 min...look at the LFM's...oh wait...nerf coming monday.

So, Turbine...who are you making this game for? Everyone? Not likely...more like gearing it to the top 5%...because it's too easy for them. Screw the casual people who don't have 7 maxed toons and can loot the **** out of a quest. Also, I know, I know...wah wah...but seriously...I work hard, I travel for long periods of time to my job. I unwind and relax with this game...but now, all the fun is gone. The people I play with are not the ubers....we just managed to get everyone flagged for reaver...and now...we can't run it.

I'm glad I play CoH....because I enjoy that game. Now...DDO has become a PoS....and I'm ready to cancel too. We didn't even get our full mod...where's our hirelings? Oh wait...they couldn't get that right either..activation date TBD. While they were busy Nerfing these quests, they couldn't fix some old bugs too...but wait...that's not important. Just keep catering to the people 5% of the player base that is waiting 3 days after a mod for the next. Screw the little guy.

God...i can't wait for 4e tabletop. I'm gonna go play CoH and some other things, and seriously ponder why I still pay for this ****.

Sorry you not happy but I cant belive anyone would drop this for 4E tabletop might as well play wow.

[RTN]

I led a complete PUG through the new Reaver the other night on Thelanis. Had a few folks from good guilds, but no one I knew personally. Most of us hadn't been through the new version and were excited for a new challenge. We'd heard rumors the elementals had been beefed up. We made it through on our first try. One person died in the first part and 2 more on the second. It's harder, but still very doable if you're prepared. The increased challenge made it more fun.

Before:
*Soloable by the casters w/ a little luck even on elite. (I've done it and I'm not an elite player, merely competent)
*Easily duoable with a caster and tank w/ almost no chance of fail even on elite.
*In most groups melee basically do nothing while one (or more) caster, one cleric and one tank does everything until it comes time to kill the big boy.

Now:
*Soloable by casters? Maybe with a lot of luck. I'd love to see someone give it a go.
*Duoable? Maybe, need some luck again and good players. (AtD, give it a go!)
*Done by a full group? Easily if you're prepared.
*Melee should now all carry a dreamsplitter to help delevel the elementals. They should probably get the buff as well so they don't get knocked down (exception: acrobat builds).

Verdict:
We got spoiled by a raid that was a simple loot run after we figured out a trick or two. It definitely wasn't as a hard as a L14 (normal) raid should be. An elite L14 raid should definitely be much harder than it was...you had to try to fail it before. It's harder now as it should be. The increased challenge is fun. With a little preparation it is very beatable.

[Uska]

Balls don't work...not for us..not on Elite or normal. Maxed lvl 16 Sorc, wiz and bard. Are we talking casual players or people with full Tier 3 Shroud loot? I think the focus here is casual players.

And to the person who said don't come to the PUBLIC forums and complain. I think you need to look up the word PUBLIC. The elitists have their say...now we can have ours.

Umm I was geting destruction to land per few casts and my bb was doing pretty good on elite and no I dont have my shroud item all beefed up infact just have a blank google we only had one caster we did fine on elite with the clerics using bb and we had no deaths.