I thought you Devs disliked Paladins before...

[artvan_delet]

...the new mod, and it's no better now. Maybe I'm in a bad mood, but playing a paladin is
1) even more of a pain than before
2) no better/worse if you are sword and board

As mentioned before, the clicky-fest required for being a paladin is more of a pain than ever. DM, DS, DF, Zeal, Prayer, etc.

1) Why can't Divine Might just add damage all the time? You already need high base level charisma and paladin levels to use DM. Does anyone think paladins will somehow become uber powered with +2/+4/+6 damage? DM lasts one minute, is this a joke.
2) Divine Smite. I enjoy how the red mobs in this mob move so much more. It makes sense, except that it screws you on divine smite. The smite still goes off, just alot more going off in the air.
3) I was hoping for green steel shields. Maybe even it up a bit with TWF. OK, there's a new mod. Great we'll get some kind of shield. What do we get? Dragontouched ARMOR. Oh perfect, in case Icy Rainments didn't suit your TWF fancy (And we'll hand them out like crazy for a while), now you can perfect your armor. Shields? Forget about it. Are you kidding? Dragontouched armor is quite nice. Is it somehow impossible to make shields craftable?
4) I feel almost compelled to get extend, so I don't have 1 minute Divine Favor (thanks for that nerf some time ago) & 2 min zeal (on a level 16 pally, shorter if you multi-classed).

The gap between a TWF ranger/rogue/monk for DPS, AC, stat damage is as big as ever. Zeal is the new addition to paladins, so we get 10 percent more attacks. So while zeal is cast, and not debuffed, we get 1/2 more swing per chain? Does anyone anywhere think that comes close to fixing paladins?

I really liked my paladin (250+ raids on this toon), and I have stood by for over a year advocating for paladins. Maybe I'm in a bad mood, but I'm sad. (And I feel bad for S/B fighters too, btw. Did they get any love this mod?)

[Borror0]

I thought you Devs disliked Paladins before...

Ironically, Eladrin's favorite toon is an halfling paladin.

[Chaos000]

maybe sword and board paladin isn't the way to go and we're supposed to go greater two handed fighting...



I know they have a holy avenger in the works... if it's a greatsword that's a buffed up version of the sword of shadows I can see some potential there

[Balkas]

maybe sword and board paladin isn't the way to go and we're supposed to go greater two handed fighting...



I know they have a holy avenger in the works... if it's a greatsword that's a buffed up version of the sword of shadows I can see some potential there

I believe it's going to be a longsword.

If they add the Whirling Steel Strike feat for monks... I foresee an abundance of Paladin monks .

[Dexxaan]

maybe sword and board paladin isn't the way to go and we're supposed to go greater two handed fighting...



I know they have a holy avenger in the works... if it's a greatsword that's a buffed up version of the sword of shadows I can see some potential there

Holy Avenger? Wow does it remove the clicky-Fest on a Paladin? Does it Open Shield Crafting? Does it make DF last as long as it should or remove the Nerf from Mod 5 was it capping it at +3 to hit and Damage?

Spare me the weapon...give me a Class that deserves better.

[Bradik_Losdar]

I have to agree.

Seems like I spend more time trying to mash buttons than I do actually fighting the forces of evil.

I was really looking forward to Divine Might, until I tried to take it and couldn't get past DM step I. Even with only a minute on the timer, it still looked to be a step forward. Unfortunately my BASE 14 Cha is teh suck. So all I get is a lousy +2 damage. With enhancements and tomes (not enchantments) I have a 20 Cha, but am still stuck with the lowest end possible. With all the inflated hit points monsters have in DDO this is practically nothing. Really, who would gimp a paladin during character creation with an 20 Cha so he could have a +8 damage clickie at level 20 ? Oh wait, those paladin sorcs, that's right.

Honestly, if they made Smite Evil or some of the other paladin "clickie" enhancements full time, always on abilities, paladins (who are supposed to be the very scorge of evil) might actually come close to fulfilling their designated role. Perhaps make this "full time on" status based on pure paladin standing - so splashing a level or two of paladin for all the goodies, but none of the downsides (low DPS being the major one) would be seriously curtailed.

That aside, all the button pushing is just rediculous. I've had some run out WHILE still pushing buttons to activate others - isn't that the very definition of too much? If I can't use them all concurrently, what's the point?

Please devs, stop the clickie madness for paladins. I get all the button pushing I want on my monk

[DoctorWhofan]

I agree.

I have two High level Pure pallys Sword and boards.


Greensteel shields? Man, I'd be doing EVERY Shroud with my level 15 gimp Pally.

I hate the clickfest. I hate clickies in general. Don't use trip for that reason. Now, playing him, I feel I am playing WoW.

[artvan_delet]

4) and if you go high level paladin, you should forget about CE. With all these spells, forget it.
5) And it would seem that the time it takes to cast DF, Zeal, Prayer, should they expire during combat, makes you waste at least one attack. Same with DM. So that uber +2/+4 extra damage you were getting every minute with DM, you just wasted at least one attack casting DM. So if your attacks are doing 60 per, then it will take you 15 attacks to make up for the one you lost hitting DM. Now if you had all of these up before you started combat, and your combat ended in 1 minute, then good for you. But that leads me to point 6.
6) I love running after my party trying to put up all my buffs before a fight. Or wondering if I should ask everyone to wait while I try to get all these buffs up. Or trying to get the buffs going when unexpected combat starts.
7) I used to love the idea of fighting beholders. Uber saves FTW. Now I dread it, I mean all those buffs gone. (I don't really dread it, but what a pain in the rump getting debuffed as a pally.)

[Baranor]

I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

[artvan_delet]

I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

I understand what you are saying. And I'll admit I sound like a whiner in this post. Like I said I'm in a bad mood, and it is rather whiney. But I would say this,

For me, it isn't about matching DPS. Paladins shouldn't match barb DPS. It's about being even overall, and creating a class that is currently a pain to play. (The best thing about paladin for me is the LOH. 4 of those at 350/300 per is a huge advantage, and good for the party. BOG is also very nice, and good for the party. Saves are high, but they don't matter much nowadays.) But paladin DPS/AC/stat damaging is so much lower than TWF, this class has issues. And sword and board are way behind. But again, the upgrades we get are a pain to play, and I'm already tired of all the clicking. It's the culmination of these things that I hope to bring to Dev attention.

[moops]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, I tried to take a group through Enter The Kobold on Normal last night, and our 2wf melee couldn't cut it--we wiped like 4 times lol, where as you did awesome when we did it on Hard and there was no party wipe at all. . . .

I love having your Pali on quests, it means success is assured

[DoctorWhofan]

I understand what you are saying. And I'll admit I sound like a whiner in this post. Like I said I'm in a bad mood, and it is rather whiney. But I would say this,

For me, it isn't about matching DPS. Paladins shouldn't match barb DPS. It's about being even overall, and creating a class that is currently a pain to play. (The best thing about paladin for me is the LOH. 4 of those at 350/300 per is a huge advantage, and good for the party. BOG is also very nice, and good for the party. Saves are high, but they don't matter much nowadays.) But paladin DPS/AC/stat damaging is so much lower than TWF, this class has issues. And sword and board are way behind. But again, the upgrades we get are a pain to play, and I'm already tired of all the clicking. It's the culmination of these things that I hope to bring to Dev attention.

Agreed. Not looking to outkill a Barbarian, or Tempest Ranger. We are looking for something that can help us stay in the running kill wise and help us get chosen for quests.

And a clickfest isn't it. I want something that makes a mostly Pure pally be wanted by players to play. Or to have in parties, withput sacrificing too much of what a Pally IS.

[Strykersz]

I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

So what does your pure paladin bring to the group that is relevant to the objective of completing the quest in a timely fashion to make up for its sub par dps?

[Junts]

I gotta say I find a lot of you haven't put adequate time into your paladin. Mine is a 14/2, I admit, but were he pure he would not be losing anythingin the DPS category (1 str bracket is it), and the only other thing his fighter levels are really helping provide is the intimidate/ac portion of the build. He's extremely useful in the new content and the flexibility of umd, his own resists, lay on hands (underratedly wonderful in a lot of quests), etc is quite effective. If he were pure he would be less an AC toon and lose the intimidate, but pick up death ward or stalwart pact and more ac/resist for people.

[Verlock]

dont wanna read all this but i like clickys i run 17 bars on my clr its better then auto atk

[Xithos]

I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

Ranger hybrids can "have their cake and eat it too". High AC, high DPS, splash 2 pal and you can get real high saves; you can even intimtank with some build tweeks. If I were a paladin I would be asking for something really nice as well.

[brshelton]

I have to say that this topic always seems funny too me, so I didn't even bother to finish reading any of the posts.

Everyone who wants to play pallys wants them to be as effective as pure dps type builds, here's the thing... YOU CAN'T HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
If they could dps like other fighter classes wouldn't they be FAR superior than any other class and therefore way too over powered

just a thought

um they cant do anything better than someone else....

[Borror0]

1) Why can't Divine Might just add damage all the time? You already need high base level charisma and paladin levels to use DM. Does anyone think paladins will somehow become uber powered with +2/+4/+6 damage? DM lasts one minute, is this a joke.

I wouldn't agree with it lasting all the time. However, I did suggest a few ways to make it much less of a pain in the ass than it already is. One of them was to allow multiple uses to stack. Each time you use it, it will add the equivalent of one use to the current time total.

You could then use half of your Divine Mights at the start of the quest and be good for a while.

2) Divine Smite. I enjoy how the red mobs in this mob move so much more. It makes sense, except that it screws you on divine smite. The smite still goes off, just alot more going off in the air.

I hate Smite Evil in its current implementation.

There has been a few suggestion on these boards to make it less painful to use. Of the ones I remember:

• Small duration (a Smite Evill buff that lasts a few seconds)
• Activating Smite Evill buff your next attack that willl connect with a mob (this could be extended to Trip, Stunning Blow and the like.

3) I was hoping for green steel shields. Maybe even it up a bit with TWF. OK, there's a new mod. Great we'll get some kind of shield. What do we get? Dragontouched ARMOR. Oh perfect, in case Icy Rainments didn't suit your TWF fancy (And we'll hand them out like crazy for a while), now you can perfect your armor. Shields? Forget about it. Are you kidding? Dragontouched armor is quite nice. Is it somehow impossible to make shields craftable?

Green Steel shields wouldn't address the core problem and would only make the casual gamers be further behind.

4) and if you go high level paladin, you should forget about CE. With all these spells, forget it.

...while, ironically, CE has became a must have for any character that cares about AC.

I proposed something way back around module 7. When using a spell, CE would stay toggle on but would stop granting its AC bonus for the next 6ish seconds. Then, after that, it would go back up automatically. It would reduce the clicking that is, quite honestly, not fun at all.

[Paladin20]

4) and if you go high level paladin, you should forget about CE. With all these spells, forget it.
5) And it would seem that the time it takes to cast DF, Zeal, Prayer, should they expire during combat, makes you waste at least one attack. Same with DM. So that uber +2/+4 extra damage you were getting every minute with DM, you just wasted at least one attack casting DM. So if your attacks are doing 60 per, then it will take you 15 attacks to make up for the one you lost hitting DM. Now if you had all of these up before you started combat, and your combat ended in 1 minute, then good for you. But that leads me to point 6.
6) I love running after my party trying to put up all my buffs before a fight. Or wondering if I should ask everyone to wait while I try to get all these buffs up. Or trying to get the buffs going when unexpected combat starts.
7) I used to love the idea of fighting beholders. Uber saves FTW. Now I dread it, I mean all those buffs gone. (I don't really dread it, but what a pain in the rump getting debuffed as a pally.)

5) Take Extend Spell. You can even synchronize Madstone Rage with DF this way. It takes two seconds if you're a slow clicker to use DM. They FINALLY made your Turn Undead useful, how can you possibly complain? Against the Pit Fiend I'm doing regular crits of (all figures principal damage) 145-167, Divine Sacrifice crits of up to 208, and Smite Evil Crits of up to 390 with only 11 Pally levels/DM II/DS I/ExS II. I'm ****ing in my pants not being able to wait till lvl 20 so I can get him to Pal 15. This is the first time in a LONG TIME I'm excited for my Mod 3 Pally build...

6) If you're really that desperate to get swings in, you can either:
a. Zerg ahead while you're buffing yourself.
b. Cast DF, get a few hits and then cast everything else. No shame in that.

7) DM is not a spell, but rather like an Action Boost and I don't think that can be dispelled. Be thankful that you can now use that effectively against things such as beholders when your other buffs are countered. Since when did you NOT get dispelled while fighting beholders? It's not just us pallies that are losing our buffs, I don't see how this is a good argument. If you're having trouble with them, I suggest you getting the biggest, baddest 2-hander weapon, click that To-Hit action boost and your Divine Might and go to town. I mean, your AC means nothing at this stage, and you never know if those extra glancing blow damage points are what kills the beholder ;-).

[Paladin20]

Agreed. Not looking to outkill a Barbarian, or Tempest Ranger. We are looking for something that can help us stay in the running kill wise and help us get chosen for quests.

And a clickfest isn't it. I want something that makes a mostly Pure pally be wanted by players to play. Or to have in parties, withput sacrificing too much of what a Pally IS.

My pally does just fine DPS-wise. Pretty much max for a sword and board. I'm usually in the top 3-4 kill wise in the Shroud, but honestly that's just not a very good way to measure your DPS output. There are just too many ways to win the kill count. Perfect example is a Stat-Dmg 2WF Barbarian killing faster than a 2-Hander Greataxe one. I don't know your pally builds and am in no way judging them, but IMO a well-built Pally is at the moment outdoing a Fighter with the same weapon configuration. And I mean not slightly, but by a very significant amount. Fully buffed, I'm doing 1d10+35 (+40 Bard/+42 Warchanter) principal damage per swing, and I don't even have Divine Might III. I didn't have to gimp anything in order to accomplish this. He has 30 Str/28 Cha, 57 AC Standing, and is one of those 'tards who would need a +5 Int Tome to get Combat Expertise. Raid buffed his AC is 63/67/69 depending on what I get, and I have 350 HP w/o a GFL, +3 Con Tome or a Shroud HP item. I so wished I had known they would've given Paladins all these goodies when I rolled him, that Intimidate would actually be a functioning and very useful skill, but I was tired of sitting on my ass waiting for them to improve the class so I decided to come up with my own solution to the DPS problem. I can guarantee I would've kept him more pure had I known otherwise.

As for the click fest, it's no more than playing a Cleric, a Bard, or even your Barbarian activating all the Rages and other clickies, drinking pots, and what not. I really don't see how that's an issue. I mean, you start with Zeal, Divine Favor, then Divine Might. That's 3 buttons/clicks/hotkeys. You have a cooldown and a limited amount of Smite Evil, and then a cooldown for Divine Sacrifice. That's 5 things to handle, 2 of which are done only once every 1-2 mins depending on whether you have Extend or not, 1 which is done once every minute, and the other 2 you use at your own discretion. How many combats in this game last for more than 2 minutes?