Path: Bard - Warchanter

[JetEskimo]

As brought up by Freeman (and others) in a different thread, the Bard - Warchanter path leaves a lot to be desired. Rather than having the feedback scattered all over the message boards, it seemed to make sense to create a unified thread here.

I think the most glaring issue is the default starting CON of 10 and DEX of 8. A d6 melee class needs serious help on at least one of these stats. The recommended class for this path is an Elf, which would give the character a starting CON of 8 (a d5 melee class?). The starting CHA of 18 would be the perfect place to pull some stat points from.

There are other issues w/ this path as well. Extend as a first level feet for humans (what exactly are you extending? CLW?), Master's Touch as the second spell (Focus Chant, Hypno, Charm Person? Expeditious Retreat?).

I understand this is just a starter build, but I still think this would be barely playable.

What would you change to make this a better build for a brand new player?

[Freeman]

For a Human Warchanter, I'd go like this:

Stats:
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

Feats:
1. Toughness
1. Extend(Use it at second level with Master's Touch)
3. WF: Slashing
6. Power Attack
9. SF: UMD
12: Imp. Crit: Slashing
15: Not sure on this one, but for a newbie, I'd probably lean towards Mental Toughness

Skills won't matter much as long as UDM, Perform, and Concentration are maxed.

Remember, this isn't what I would do, but what I'd recommend to someone completely new to the game.

[JetEskimo]

So you don't mind picking up Master's Touch @2? Just seems like an odd choice to me.

[Angelus_dead]

As brought up by Freeman (and others) in a different thread, the Bard - Warchanter path leaves a lot to be desired. Rather than having the feedback scattered all over the message boards, it seemed to make sense to create a unified thread here.

Although the ability scores are bad, the larger problem is one the devs are less able to fix: Warchanter is a multiclass-oriented specialty, and the "standard" warchanter build should be considered to have 1 level of fighter or barb. Similarly, the standard "warpriest" battlecleric should have 1 level of fighter or paladin. The paths system can't do this at all.

I think the most glaring issue is the default starting CON of 10 and DEX of 8.

Yeah, TWF is powerful for Warchanters, and their stats should give them the option to get it later, at least if using a high dex race of elf or halfling.

[Freeman]

So you don't mind picking up Master's Touch @2? Just seems like an odd choice to me.

I'm not that concerned about the spell selection, since those are relatively easy to change, but Focusing Chant would also be a good choice as well. Even at level 2, it would be nice to be able to whip out a greataxe and commence with a beatdown occasionally.

[Freeman]

Although the ability scores are bad, the larger problem is one the devs are less able to fix: Warchanter is a multiclass-oriented specialty, and the "standard" warchanter build should be considered to have 1 level of fighter or barb. Similarly, the standard "warpriest" battlecleric should have 1 level of fighter or paladin. The paths system can't do this at all.

A pure bard can still be an effective Warchanter. Remember, the point isn't to turn new players into experts. The original goal of the paths was to create characters that they wouldn't necessarily have to reroll later due to horrible choices they made along the way. Staying pure on a Warchanter won't have a large impact on the character in the long run, and they can always add the fighter levels later on if they decide to. Remember, the paths should just be a starting point until they learn enough to go out on their own.

Yeah, TWF is powerful for Warchanters, and their stats should give them the option to get it later, at least if using a high dex race of elf or halfling.

For a high-dex race, it might be possible. However, for a 28pt Warchanter being used by a new player, I think TWF would be stretching the character far too thin on stats, particularly since the paths don't alter due to race.(Beyond stats and bonus feats) Besides, how many times have you seen new players trying to TWF at low levels? It usually doesn't end well.

[JetEskimo]

Although the ability scores are bad, the larger problem is one the devs are less able to fix: Warchanter is a multiclass-oriented specialty, and the "standard" warchanter build should be considered to have 1 level of fighter or barb. Similarly, the standard "warpriest" battlecleric should have 1 level of fighter or paladin. The paths system can't do this at all.

Very true, but for what it is trying to be it is ok that they aren't multi-class builds. Sure, I would never go Warchanter with out some non-bard classes mixed in, but a pure bard would still be workable for a new player.

I'm not too offended by the basic feat selection (1:PA, 3:WF, 6:Extend, 9:Cleave, 12:ImpCrit). Love to see the human build hold the same path and maybe just add Toughness at 1st level, or put Cleave there and put Toughness at 9.

[Angelus_dead]

For a high-dex race, it might be possible. However, for a 28pt Warchanter being used by a new player, I think TWF would be stretching the character far too thin on stats, particularly since the paths don't alter due to race.(Beyond stats and bonus feats) Besides, how many times have you seen new players trying to TWF at low levels? It usually doesn't end well.

As you just explained, it's not necessarily about doing something now, but having the ability to try it later without needing to reroll. The default elf or halfling warchanter should have 15 or 14 dex, so he can get GTWF after a tome.

Since DDO doesn't allow ability buy respec, they should put some priority on suggested stats that are able to qualify for many different possibilities, instead of being maxxed at anything.

[JetEskimo]

Stats:
Str: 16
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 8
Wis: 8
Cha: 16

I think those would be perfectly acceptable base stats across all the races, letting the natural bonuses/penalties fall where they may.

[JetEskimo]

As you just explained, it's not necessarily about doing something now, but having the ability to try it later without needing to reroll. The default elf or halfling warchanter should have 15 or 14 dex, so he can get GTWF after a tome.

Honestly, I think that TWF is something best left in the Monk, Ranger, and Fighter paths. I know it can be deadly with a Bard Warchanter, but I think it is too involved for what these Paths can accomplish.

[Freeman]

As you just explained, it's not necessarily about doing something now, but having the ability to try it later without needing to reroll. The default elf or halfling warchanter should have 15 or 14 dex, so he can get GTWF after a tome.

Since DDO doesn't allow ability buy respec, they should put some priority on suggested stats that are able to qualify for many different possibilities, instead of being maxxed at anything.

As I said, for a high-dex race it could be done. However, it doesn't look like any of the builds vary any more than necessary between races, and they've already said they weren't going to include multi-classing in the paths, both of which would really be needed to have a good TWF Warchanter path. I don't think I'd recommend anyone try it on a pure 28pt build, let alone a new player to the game. They have to have some reason to roll another character eventually anyway