TWF and monks.

[baddax]

I see alot of monks switching to twf feats prior to mod 8. Is it possible that TWF feats are a class granted feat ie. ranger? If so would this mean you will have to swap them out again at a later date? It doesnt make alot of sense that it would not be class granted as 2/3 of your entire weapon selection will require its use. The exception being the QS, which as everyone knows is not the most efficeint of the Vast arsenal of monk weapons. Also the monk is already a very feat intensive class. I think many monks will be hard pressed to add these 3 feats without some major changes or significantly weaking the overall build.
The reason why im asking is because i havent swapped mine out yet for this reason. Have the DV's specifically stated somewhere that it will NOT be clas granted?

[Angelus_dead]

Have the DV's specifically stated somewhere that it will NOT be clas granted?

No.

In addition, they haven't stated rogues won't be granted Polar Ray.

[Inspire]

Monks get a free feat at levels 1, 2, and 6... how do you find them "hard pressed"? No they will not be getting the 2 weapon fighting line for free.

[baddax]

No polar ray?!?!? now i have to delte my rogue thanks for nothing turbine!

[Angelus_dead]

Have the DV's specifically stated somewhere that it will NOT be clas granted?

Seriously, people have logged monks onto Risia. There's no bonus feats.

[baddax]

Monks get a free feat at levels 1, 2, and 6... how do you find them "hard pressed"? No they will not be getting the 2 weapon fighting line for free.

1)Ive always wonder how the level 6 feat is considered a "free feat" as you are free to choose harmonious balance or inevitable dominion.

2)monks have 2 other monk only feats that are not "required" but are important to a monk build. deflect arrows and stunning fist.

3) By my math that leaves 1 "free" feat. If you go dodge, mobility, SA,CE, WW as a standard build then i guess you would be right as its the only feat left for a pure monk who does not cross class or is not a human.

4) So with you 1 remaining free feat that only leaves a few choices improved crit? why bother their crit range sucks either way. Toughness? To squishy wouldnt really help. I guess you are right they really arent that hard pressed for feats anyways. i'll just use it for twf, and wait for itw when mod 9 hits and maybe spalsh some fighter for greater. Thanks for clearing that up for me

[Angelus_dead]

1)Ive always wonder how the level 6 feat is considered a "free feat" as you are free to choose harmonious balance or inevitable dominion.

No. Harmonious Balance is level 3. The level 6 feat is from the normal monk bonus list. The 3 best choices are PA, SF, and (to most people) Toughness. CE, Finesse, and Dodge are also OK. Those free other slots for other feats.

2)monks have 2 other monk only feats that are not "required" but are important to a monk build. deflect arrows and stunning fist.

Lol, deflect arrows!?

3) By my math that leaves 1 "free" feat. If you go dodge, mobility, SA,CE, WW as a standard build

Lol, Mobility as standard? Whirlwind?

[baddax]

No. Harmonious Balance is level 3. The level 6 feat is from the normal monk bonus list. The 3 best choices are PA, SF, and (to most people) Toughness. CE, Finesse, and Dodge are also OK. Those free other slots for other feats.


Lol, deflect arrows!?


Lol, Mobility as standard? Whirlwind?

Both feats are monk feats. Did not say which was worth anything. So yes Stunning fist is a good selection for monks.

[baddax]

No. Harmonious Balance is level 3. The level 6 feat is from the normal monk bonus list. The 3 best choices are PA, SF, and (to most people) Toughness. CE, Finesse, and Dodge are also OK. Those free other slots for other feats.


Lol, deflect arrows!?


Lol, Mobility as standard? Whirlwind?

So give me your feats as a standard monk build and please show me your "3 free feats"

[Desteria]

I'm not a pure monk BUT i had to take feats to get tempest and becasue i'm kama fighting TWD works I hav eextra feats the free ranger feats are balaced by hvaign to take mobility and SA for tempest

BUT i'll do up a pure 16 TWF monk here so there is no confution... I"ll also assume none human

lv1- Dodge
monk1- Toughness(becasue you can't take the BAB1 feats at level 1)
monk2- Weapon Finness
lv3- TWF
monk3- Path of harmonius balance.
monk6- POWER ATTACK
lv6- COMBAT EXPERTISE
lv9- ITWF
lv12- IC: SLASH
lv15- GTWF

There feel free to swap toughness or IC or even dodge for other feats to flavor or drop one fo the stances i stuck them both in to show how there is tones of room.

*EDIT* the 3 free feats are the monk1, monk2, monk6 feats i dotn really coutn the path as a feat as it;s just a choice of this or that.

[Inspire]

So give me your feats as a standard monk build and please show me your "3 free feats"

My halfling monk, Untouchable... his feats are found here.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=147606

[Inspire]

1)Ive always wonder how the level 6 feat is considered a "free feat" as you are free to choose harmonious balance or inevitable dominion.

Try again... Thats level 3.

2)monks have 2 other monk only feats that are not "required" but are important to a monk build. deflect arrows and stunning fist.

Deflect arrows FTW!!!...

3) By my math that leaves 1 "free" feat. If you go dodge, mobility, SA,CE, WW as a standard build then i guess you would be right as its the only feat left for a pure monk who does not cross class or is not a human.

Whirlwind... why? for some flashy graphic?

4) So with you 1 remaining free feat that only leaves a few choices improved crit? why bother their crit range sucks either way. Toughness? To squishy wouldnt really help. I guess you are right they really arent that hard pressed for feats anyways. i'll just use it for twf, and wait for itw when mod 9 hits and maybe spalsh some fighter for greater. Thanks for clearing that up for me

Dont even know where to begin here... why did you even roll a monk? I think you should reroll your monk into something you find useful.
As for the rest of us... we'll bring our squishy, terrible crit range, and obviously gimped monks into the new content. Cheers.

[Vivanto]

So give me your feats as a standard monk build and please show me your "3 free feats"

So far my plans for a dps monk:
1 : TWF
monk1 : PA
monk2 : SF
3 : Cleave
6 : Stunning blow
monk6 : Toughness
9 : ITWF
12 : IC
15 : GTWF

[Timjc86]

We clearly have very different opinions about which feats are "useful"... my first monk on Risia who did not take any of the TWF feats was picking stuff like Deflect Arrows and Discipline simply because there were no other feats he really needed and those seemed flavorful or interesting (just not that useful).

Monks are arguably the second least feat-starved class behind fighters. I'd say they compete with rangers for that position - rangers get lots of free feats with ranger levels but require a significant feat investment for Tempest. Pure rogues, and TWF bards and barbarians are the ones who are really hurting for feats.

There has been no explicit statement that monks will not receive TWF feats for free. But monk will not receive TWF feats for free.

1: Two Weapon Fighting
1 Monk: Combat Expertise
2 Monk: Dodge
3: Toughness
3 Monk: Harmonious Balance / Inevitable Dominion
6: Power Attack
6 Monk: Stunning Fist
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12: Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

My monk did something like this (the order may be slightly off). He's human, so I'm actually forgetting a feat. You said you thought IC was fairly worthless for a monk so that'd be a free feat. You may not have or want to get the intelligence for CE, so that's another potential free feat. Dodge is only 1 AC, that could be exchanged. I took toughness only because of the racial toughness enhancements coming on Wednesday, so if you're not human or are not hurting for extra hp that could be exchanged. Some halfling monks don't get the strength for Power Attack.

That's 5 feats that are arguably useless depending on your character build and taste (excluding the bonus human feat); while still obtaining the TWF chain.

[baddax]

The original post was a simple question.

Have the Dev's specifically stated one way or another weather it will be a class granted feat. I try and stay up to date on forums news but often miss something. My reason for asking this was to determine weather i should go ahead and swap my feats or wait until the mod hits. My reasoning was a simple premise, Rangers are given it as a "Free Feat" and they are a more versatile class imo already as they have vertually no weapon restrictions. Monks have a total of 3 weapons to choose from 2 of which Now Require you to have TWF chain. Now before you say its not required, no it is not but you will be seriously gimped in 2/3of your primary weapons compared to those who do. To me this is a simple conclusion and a simple yes or no would suffice. Im sorry if you cannot see the logic in this question however as i stated a simple yes they have or no they have not would suffice.


Now i was not suggesting they they Should have them just Asking IF the Dev's staed that they were or Were not given. A simple yes or no i think would suffice. But no i get some Uber of Uberness tell me my rogue will not get Polar ray! Thanks but no thanks i realize i may not be "Uber" as my mistake in saying that monks must take harmonious blalance or negative dominion at level 3., But this doe not make me or many of the other regular ddo players who are not "uber" idiots.But it does make some "Uber" players ssaseloh, which by the way is a turn off to NEW players which are the life blood of a continuing DDO universe.


As for WW. Think of it why would the Dev's waste ther time with a "splashy" graphic if it was not a benifit to the class. Sure it looks cool but it also is twice as good as GC as it give 2 attacks of 360, which is twice as good as GC in my non Uber opinion.

As for the stunning blow/deflect arrows this was a list of Monk Only feats. Now i realize that deflect arrows is not the best of feats but stunning fist with a good wisdom is not a bad feat for someone who does not have a Single weapon with a good crit range. So stunnnig fist is almost a must for a harmonious monk, again in my non uber opinion. Sure there are other options but these are "monk" feats so that implies that they SHOULD be a good selection for a monk. Which does not mean that they both are but as we all no things change quicky in DDO. What is "UBER" today is "Trash" tomorrow ie the vorpal paralyzer dualwield combo.

As for why did i roll a monk thats my buisness not yours. I think You should come down from your ivory tower and mingle with some non ubers for i while. It might help with you "Uber" attitude. Remember everyone was a noob and a non uber (yes even you as much as you try and forget it) at one time. Oh just saw your signature, that explains it all....

[baddax]

We clearly have very different opinions about which feats are "useful"... my first monk on Risia who did not take any of the TWF feats was picking stuff like Deflect Arrows and Discipline simply because there were no other feats he really needed and those seemed flavorful or interesting (just not that useful).

Monks are arguably the second least feat-starved class behind fighters. I'd say they compete with rangers for that position - rangers get lots of free feats with ranger levels but require a significant feat investment for Tempest. Pure rogues, and TWF bards and barbarians are the ones who are really hurting for feats.

There has been no explicit statement that monks will not receive TWF feats for free. But monk will not receive TWF feats for free.

1: Two Weapon Fighting
1 Monk: Combat Expertise
2 Monk: Dodge
3: Toughness
3 Monk: Harmonious Balance / Inevitable Dominion
6: Power Attack
6 Monk: Stunning Fist
9: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12: Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
15: Greater Two Weapon Fighting

My monk did something like this (the order may be slightly off). He's human, so I'm actually forgetting a feat. You said you thought IC was fairly worthless for a monk so that'd be a free feat. You may not have or want to get the intelligence for CE, so that's another potential free feat. Dodge is only 1 AC, that could be exchanged. I took toughness only because of the racial toughness enhancements coming on Wednesday, so if you're not human or are not hurting for extra hp that could be exchanged. Some halfling monks don't get the strength for Power Attack.

That's 5 feats that are arguably useless depending on your character build and taste (excluding the bonus human feat); while still obtaining the TWF chain.

I said improved crit was worthless and toughness was wortheless, however i was being sarcastic.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

The problem with WW is that it's quite a 'slow' attack - i.e. you push it and you'll find that in the time it takes you to WW (because of the cool animation) you could have been using that time for other attacks instead.

My feat list for my monk looked a lot like Timjc86's list - TWF will definately become very useful for the non-qstaff monk post mod 8.

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

The problem with WW is that it's quite a 'slow' attack - i.e. you push it and you'll find that in the time it takes you to WW

Oh? How long does it take? Cleave and Great Cleave take as long as 3 normal attacks, but I'm not willing to train WW measure that one.

I think the more important problem with WW is that it's basically the same as Cleave (the extra 180 degrees rotation hardly ever makes a positive difference) but has a much much longer cooldown, so you can hardly ever use it.

It's funny in DDO that Cleave > Great Cleave > Whirlwind, because each feat has approximately the same effect but the successively longer cooldowns make the later ones worse. In D&D, Whirlwind > Great Cleave > Cleave.

[Strakeln]

Oh? How long does it take? Cleave and Great Cleave take as long as 3 normal attacks, but I'm not willing to train WW measure that one.

I think the more important problem with WW is that it's basically the same as Cleave (the extra 180 degrees rotation hardly ever makes a positive difference) but has a much much longer cooldown, so you can hardly ever use it.

It's funny in DDO that Cleave > Great Cleave > Whirlwind, because each feat has approximately the same effect but the successively longer cooldowns make the later ones worse. In D&D, Whirlwind > Great Cleave > Cleave.

Someone stated on these boards that WW was actually two attacks (two great cleaves, if you will). I never tested it, but that struck me as possibly being beneficial, assuming enough mobs are around you at the time.

Monks get uber-hosed with these attacks (great cleave's completely useless and annoying pre-strike hop, for example). Who the hell thought it was a good idea to distinguish unarmed monks from every other class's usage of the same exact feat should be forced to do a short hop before everything they do, for one week.

[baddax]

Yes there is a delay between the graphic and the attack but it still works as 2 full attacks at Full attack bonus. It appears the delay does not effect the attack, it just looks a little off. Especially in raid groups where there is already a tendency to be alot of lag. Nonetheless 2 360' attacks is very nice when surronunded by mobs. Now the cool down is rather long but if used in conjunction with c,gc,ww it should prove a very useful attack chain. I personally will usualy WW then jump to the outside of the mob and pick off the stragglers one by one. Then when my timer is reset will try and jump back into the middle of the fray and WW again.

My thoughts were this why would the Dev's waste their time on making a Unique attack graphic for the monk WW when there has never been any real difference (graphicly at least) between the c,gc,ww graphic if they were not at some point make it a useful monk feat?

Also i have heard that Deflect arrows works now. I have monk that has it but have not tested it recently. But like a said a freind of mine said it is now working, and is extremely useful ie. in pvp deflects 80% of ranged attacks. However i am not sure of this, and i was not read to let the cat out of that bag just yet. So anyone who has the time to test and verify this please do. It may be that i was misinformed.