Sneaking

[Turial]

Having spent a lot of time sneaking about and causing problems for the monsters of DDO for a while I've noticed a few things.

In pnp you are unable to hide if you are being directly observed. In DDO this is also the case, invisibility being an exception, for players. Mobs seem to be able to hide even while being observed.

Does this mean that most animal mobs and some of the sneaker non-animal mobs all have Hide in Plain Sight or some similar feature?

In pnp if you take a snipe shot, one fired from hiding, and you quickly move out of visual perception and hide, you would take a -20 to your hide check but it is still possible to "vanish". In DDO it seems as if the penalty is greater then -20 or maybe that the aggro generated by your attack simply allows the mobs to track you much easier regardless of your stealthy ways.

My question would be is it simply a -20 to hide like in pnp or does the aggro mechanic of the game truely give the mob an unfair tracking advantage?

This all leads up to the level 17th ranger ability of Hide in Plain Sight which allows a ranger to hide even while being observed. Would it operate similar to how the hidden feature of invisibility works? Where a level 17th ranger would upon attempting to sneak would be considered to have successfully passed all checks and would need to be found with search attempts?

[Ghoste]

I have asked about both monsters re hiding, and the lvl 17 feat, hide in plain sight.

Got a response to Eladrin about the first one. He said that monsters only try to hide when they have nothing better to do, like fighting adventurers. Problem with that is the assumption that players are also guided by AI. Since we aren't, and tend to find creative ways to fight monsters, some of us frequently observe this behavior which in Turbine's poorly constructed theory isn't supposed to happen.

As far as the feat, I half believe they'll implement it as they should, but the other half of me says they're going to mess it up like they did with shadow walk and expect the players to be astonished by what an amazing feat it is.

[Turial]

....
Got a response to Eladrin about the first one. He said that monsters only try to hide when they have nothing better to do, like fighting adventurers. Problem with that is the assumption that players are also guided by AI. Since we aren't, and tend to find creative ways to fight monsters, some of us frequently observe this behavior which in Turbine's poorly constructed theory isn't supposed to happen. .....

You mean where the mob rehides and runs away to gather more mobs to kill us?

[Ghoste]

You mean where the mob rehides and runs away to gather more mobs to kill us?

Lol, exactly.

[Turial]

Now have you noticed the -20 hide penalty in trying to hide after being spotted without the use of invisibility? or is the AI just that much better at "pinging" us?

[Leyoni]

I don't think the AI works on the die roll principle* and I don't think multiple checks are taking place at the same rate of speed that they would in PnP.

I think that once you wing an arrow at something or somehow otherwise get their attention that they stay locked onto you for far longer than the animation sequence to get back into sneak mode. As a result the mobs don't check again for losing you until they are upon you meaning that they would be getting huge bonuses to see you in any case.

*By this I mean in PnP things are turn based -- you do something the mob does something, you do something.... DDO is real-time so checks don't automatically happen in response to what you have just done (returning to sneak mode). Instead they occur after a set period of time and a lot of movement and changes to the original position takes place. This introduces so many new variables into the check that the effective result is that you get noticed almost regularly in spite of your best efforts.

[Turial]

I don't think the AI works on the die roll principle* and I don't think multiple checks are taking place at the same rate of speed that they would in PnP.....

Correct for 90% of things there is no dice roll. You either have enough or you don't. But the mobs do typically go through the motions as if they are making a check.

This is part of why I dislike spiders, thrack hounds, and wraiths so much.

[Ghoste]

Now have you noticed the -20 hide penalty in trying to hide after being spotted without the use of invisibility? or is the AI just that much better at "pinging" us?

Can't rehide once observed, unless you cast invis. There is no penalty when using invis to rehide, but no matter how well hidden you are above their ability to find you, they still sort of follow you. It's like they know where you are, but are pretending not to know. There are ways to make them in actuality not know where you are, but that is permanent and very exploitable, and thus not something I am going to reveal any details about.

[Turial]

Can't rehide once observed, unless you cast invis. There is no penalty when using invis to rehide, but no matter how well hidden you are above their ability to find you, they still sort of follow you. It's like they know where you are, but are pretending not to know. There are ways to make them in actuality not know where you are, but that is permanent and very exploitable, and thus not something I am going to reveal any details about.

Yes, well every Archmage is allowed their secrets.

[Jay203]

There are ways to make them in actuality not know where you are, but that is permanent and very exploitable, and thus not something I am going to reveal any details about.

hehe, killing them off doesn't count! :P