Shattermantle and Raid Bosses

[SableShadow]

This is a caster specific question, but rather than cross-post in several forums, I figured I'd ask it here:

I had a caster request Shattermantle from melees in a Shroud, so he could debuff the raid boss. None of us happened to be carrying it, but it got me thinking.

How much does Shattermantle help casters against raid bosses?

I don't (currently) carry it, but if it will significantly help a caster debuff a raid boss, I will. I see some (maybe 50/50?) debuffing of the Reaver, for instance, but about half the time casters don't bother (I end up Ray of Enfeeblement-ing from the Staff of Arcane Power and spamming a cursespewer, which is inferior to a real caster curse because it only lasts a minute or so).

I'm very fond of finesse rather than brute force approaches to quests in general, so...should I carry Shattermantle? Should I just reserve it for guild raids, where we can discuss tactics ahead of time? Discuss it with the casters before we actually enter the raid, then grab it from the bank as needed? Or is Shattermantle basically junk in raids and I should forget about it?

[Angelus_dead]

I had a caster request Shattermantle from melees in a Shroud, so he could debuff the raid boss. None of us happened to be carrying it, but it got me thinking.

It is a good idea for casters to debuff devil raid bosses like Arraetrikos and Suulomades, and because of the SR shattermantle does help.

However in the case of Arraetrikos at least, it's better for the melee guys to not waste their time using a lower DPS shattermantle weapno, and for the caster to either use his own shattermantle returning dart, or to just cast the spell a few extra times until it works. For Suulomades you'll probably have a long period when people are holding off DPS until the MT builds aggro, so at that time someone could go ahead and Shattermantle.

But for simplicity's sake, it's easier and more reliable if the caster brings his own Shattermantle.

BONUS TIP: If you're willing to carry extra weapons to help debuff raid bosses, then skip Shattermantle and get a weapon of Strength Sapping. It has a fortitude save, so it will take an average of 20 hits for it to apply to a raid boss, but when it does he loses -3 attack and damage for a long long time. It's well worth it on Suulomades.

[Lithic]

I wouldn't bother unless you have tons of pack space.

Right now, I think only VOD and Shroud bosses have spell resistance. These are also quests where casters aren't really critical anyway, at least not for their damage output, so if they have to spam their debuffs 2 or 3 times more, its not a big loss.

Now for quests like Running with the devils (esp. on elite), shattermantle would be great for the casters, but for a melee to switch to a shattermantle instead of their vorpal or wounder (or rarely, their dps weapon) wouldn't provide enough of a benefit.

If you can find a vorpal of shattermantle, that would be a nice trash mob weapon.

[SableShadow]

Good comments!

Keep in mind, I play a rogue; my primary DPS is in my class levels, not in my weapon (with the notable exceptions of undead and constructs...). I would prefer to use a Deception weapon on most raid bosses, but I carry enough raid specific weapons (e.g. holy of greater chaotic outsider bane, anarchic of pure good, true chaos of greater construct bane) to not mind swapping into Shattermantle for a while until the caster's debuffs are good and set. Yes, it makes bank space tight, but I value smooth raids, cleverly solved.

If my caster(s) say that swapping into a Shattermantle until they have their debuffs set will help, then I'll find a way to do it.

Follow on question: Caster debuffs last through raid boss pauses? Or have to be re-applied each time the boss becomes attack eligible?

BONUS TIP: If you're willing to carry extra weapons to help debuff raid bosses, then skip Shattermantle and get a weapon of Strength Sapping. It has a fortitude save, so it will take an average of 20 hits for it to apply to a raid boss, but when it does he loses -3 attack and damage for a long long time. It's well worth it on Suulomades.

Follow on question here: All the weapons I've tested out (and I tested all of them, once upon a time...circa Mod 4), the debuff only lasts 1 minute if it comes from a weapon...with no exceptions...is Strength Sapping a known exception now, under Mod 7? I can get my hands on one again and am totally willing to find a Strength Sapping melee weapon or get a Strength Sapping bow to lend to the ranger for a many shot....

[Angelus_dead]

Follow on question: Caster debuffs last through raid boss pauses? Or have to be re-applied each time the boss becomes attack eligible?

I've seen some bosses clear their debuffs when they teleport to different phases. Arraetrikos definately does that in part 4 of the Shroud, and so does Queen Laliat in her raid.

Follow on question here: All the weapons I've tested out (and I tested all of them, once upon a time...circa Mod 4), the debuff only lasts 1 minute if it comes from a weapon...with no exceptions...

Some are less than a minute. Maybe str-sap is only a minute now, it's hard to remember. PvP should clear it up.

[SableShadow]

I've seen some bosses clear their debuffs when they teleport to different phases. Arraetrikos definately does that in part 4 of the Shroud, and so does Queen Laliat in her raid.

Excellent examples! I was thinking Shroud 5, which is more of an endurance trial based on healing mana, and largely melee damage from Arraetrikos, where part 4 is primarily fireballs and the focus is DPS him down quickly.

I was also thinking VoD, since sticking just one Ray of Enfeeblement and one Curse (nevermind the rest of the fruit salad) on Suulo (who only goes up twice, near as I can tell) is the equivalent of giving the tank an extra (will vary) +12 AC and +7 DR...and where having both caster and healing mana to help with bats at the end helps a lot, so the fewer attempts to land, the better.

Some are less than a minute. Maybe str-sap is only a minute now, it's hard to remember. PvP should clear it up.

Sounds like my poor test dummy (Giant #1 in Threnal) is in for another rough night.

Follow on question: How much of a debuff is Blind? I'm about to get my Radiance II rapier and am thinking this weapon is more useful as a debuff (VoD...helping casters web and fighters kill devil spawns) than a kill weapon (I have lots of kill weapons).

[Geonis]

I end up Ray of Enfeeblement-ing from the Staff of Arcane Power

This is more important than you think, as this is the only Ray of Enfeeblement that will land or Harry or Sally, due to them being immune to level 4 or lower spells.

Also, debuffing is important in these raids. It was the difference between my level 14 (Rgr 6/Rog 8) being in melee on Harry and contributing a lot of damage, and getting pwn'd (at level 16) by Harry in about 8 seconds.

[Angelus_dead]

This is more important than you think, as this is the only Ray of Enfeeblement that will land or Harry or Sally, due to them being immune to level 4 or lower spells.

Arraetrikos does not have Mantle of Invulnerability.

[Geonis]

Arraetrikos does not have Mantle of Invulnerability.

Okay, then it's just Sally. Don't get to bring my caster very often.

[tinyelvis]

I am surprised at how many people are really ignorant of the role a good caster plays in these raids. Take the shroud for example. A good caster can effectively use a maximized mm's for only 2pts cost more than 2 normal mm's (with proper buffs). The damage ranges from 80 to 220 pts per missile barrage depending on criticals. With full mana use this will result in about 10,000 pts of damage. A properly spec'd caster with glacial items can put around 11-12K damage with Polar ray. Now when you consider that Harry has perhaps 50000 hit points (??) in part 4, you can see the effect a good caster has on the battle (usually more damage than most of the melee dudes, especially the one screaming for GH).

A necro spec'd caster with maximum spell pen will land an effective WOE in 1 to 6 casts on the Pit Fiend due to saves and/or SR (keep in mind this needs to be done every round). This is a caster spec'd for this, an otherwise spec'd caster will fail substantially more often (most casters are otherwise spec'd). Each 3 casts of WOE is equal to about 6 max mm's for a loss of around 500 to 1300 pts. Similarly 2 Polar rays could have been cast dealing around 600 - 2000.

Thirdly, when you consider that a caster typically will not melee/missile hit very easily Harry, it really is a no brainer to assume that a melee type take a couple shattermantle swats. The tens of pts of damage you miss out on doing really don'vt compare.

If you dont carry this melee weapon you should. It's also nice to see "Spell Song" too.

[Angelus_dead]

Now when you consider that Harry has perhaps 50000 hit points (??) in part 4

More like 125,000 hp isn't it? If it was only 50,000 hp you'd never need part4 to go into a second round.

Raid Boss Hitpoint Guesses
Velah: 6,000
Titan: 8,000
Laliat: 7,000
Reaver: 50,000
Abbot: 45,000
Arraetrikos: 125,000
Suulomades: 150,000

It'd be fun to have a contest and then ask the devs for the REAL numbers...

[sirgog]

Back on Shattermantle:

Normal Shroud - don't bother, you can land the debuffs about 40% of the time without it, increasing to 55% isn't worth the effort and lost DPS, IMO.

Hard Shroud - in the middle here. I'd say go for Shattermantle, but it's less important than on Elite.

Elite Shroud - definitely have someone on Shattermantle duty for the first part of each pass in part 4 and at the start of part 5. It makes a huge difference - instead of a 10-15% chance of landing debuffs, we're now talking 25-30%.


Hound - doesn't help at all.


VoD - Probably worthwhile on all difficulties (IIRC Suulo has higher SR than Harry)

Reaver - surely you have something better to do than debuff the giant (like pick your nose).



I recommend looking for +5 Transmuting of Shattermantle weapons - they'll perform pretty well as DPS weapons while you get in the Shattermantle effect, then you can change to something better afterward.

[Angelus_dead]

I am surprised at how many people are really ignorant of the role a good caster plays in these raids. Take the shroud for example. A good caster can effectively use a maximized mm's for only 2pts cost more than 2 normal mm's (with proper buffs). The damage ranges from 80 to 220 pts per missile barrage depending on criticals.

The idea that a caster would be specialized at Force damage and criticals is pretty funny.

Thirdly, when you consider that a caster typically will not melee/missile hit very easily Harry, it really is a no brainer to assume that a melee type take a couple shattermantle swats. The tens of pts of damage you miss out on doing really don'vt compare.

Melee guys do a lot more than "tens" of damage with one single hit. In the time it takes to use Shattermantle and then switch back to real weapons you could've done 400-500 melee damage. And then if he does use Shattermantle it lasts only for 9 seconds, which means the caster will probably miss it and do his spell either too early or too late. That's a tough coordination problem. Finally Shattermantle is only a -3 penalty to SR, so the chance it will even make a difference to the spell is low.

A necro spec'd caster with maximum spell pen will land an effective WOE in 1 to 6 casts on the Pit Fiend due to saves and/or SR

There is no save on Waves of Exhaustion, and not on Ray of Enfeeblement either.
Arraetrikos has SR 35, and maximum player spell pen is 16 levels + 4 feat + 3 enhance + 3 item = 26, giving you a 50-50 chance the spell works on the first cast.

[Angelus_dead]

Reaver - surely you have something better to do than debuff the giant (like pick your nose).

It's never a bad idea to debuff the Stormreaver. It might be important to reduce his damage in the likely event that either the tank or the cleric falls asleep.

But of course, Stormreaver has no Spell Resistance, so...

[Aerendil]

The Shattermantle idea is a good idea, and something that came up recently in the Wizard forums.

But, as others have mentioned above, the way it currently works isn't enough of an encouragement to use a Shattermantle weapon over most other melee weapons of choice.

Until casters can debuff SR by themselves (via spells), to be dependent on melees to do it isn't going to work very well, especially with a mere 9sec window.

If Shattermantle weapons were overhauled so as to be on par with the various WoP / vorpal / enfeebling / various other melee weapons, then it could be a very good weapon. But that's a big "if".

[SableShadow]

Sounds like my poor test dummy (Giant #1 in Threnal) is in for another rough night.

Re: Strength Sapping. 1 Minute duration, like the other weapon-based status effects. Stacks with Crippling, as it turns out...watching test dummy #3 (they don't make Giants like they used to!) craaaaaawl toward me was entertaining.

I'll keep a lookout for a Strength Sapping Rapier of Shattermantle and coordinate with our raid caster(s) to play with it a little.

Thanks for all the help, guys!

[tinyelvis]

More like 125,000 hp isn't it? If it was only 50,000 hp you'd never need part4 to go into a second round.

Raid Boss Hitpoint Guesses
Velah: 6,000
Titan: 8,000
Laliat: 7,000
Reaver: 50,000
Abbot: 45,000
Arraetrikos: 125,000
Suulomades: 150,000

It'd be fun to have a contest and then ask the devs for the REAL numbers...

The easy way to do this would be to fight for a bit and then everyone DDoor out and count up their damage. Compare this to the relative health bar of the Boss to find damage. I think you will be surprised. I certainly would like to find out.

The idea that a caster would be specialized at Force damage and criticals is pretty funny.

Funny,..... only to those who majored in liberal arts and may be lacking in basic math skills. It is very easy to show that mm will end up doing more damage than any other spell. In effect it is the most efficient damage per mana use spell. That is with the possible recent exception of a fully buffed polar ray (glove, bracers, ring and all max/empow enhancements). No other spell comes within 1000's of points of it. The developers are smart enough to know this (though some players may not) and have decided to make many new critters immune to mm including the horned devil. Most people have no real idea which spell is better to use or why, they just do what they are told or have seen others do. Few actually take the time to figure out the actual values.

Melee guys do a lot more than "tens" of damage with one single hit. In the time it takes to use Shattermantle and then switch back to real weapons you could've done 400-500 melee damage.

According to your example they don't. Using your numbers and say a 3 second lapse in time we get 133 to 167 pts of damage per second or hit. Which certainly is not 100's of points of damage but rather 10's. However, you misrepresented what I wrote. My point was 10's of damage difference. Damage is still done over this 3 second period, just reduced in nature. Lets say its even half, then we get 67 to 83.5 pts of damage lost while you better enable a caster. Let's not even consider that you quote the best case scenario and that most folks don't even do this much damage, making my point even more valid.

When you consider this spell increases the DPS of the melee'rs I'm really confused why there is even a fuss here.

[sirgog]

The easy way to do this would be to fight for a bit and then everyone DDoor out and count up their damage. Compare this to the relative health bar of the Boss to find damage. I think you will be surprised. I certainly would like to find out.


Funny,..... only to those who majored in liberal arts and may be lacking in basic math skills. It is very easy to show that mm will end up doing more damage than any other spell. In effect it is the most efficient damage per mana use spell. That is with the possible recent exception of a fully buffed polar ray (glove, bracers, ring and all max/empow enhancements). No other spell comes within 1000's of points of it. The developers are smart enough to know this (though some players may not) and have decided to make many new critters immune to mm including the horned devil. Most people have no real idea which spell is better to use or why, they just do what they are told or have seen others do. Few actually take the time to figure out the actual values.



According to your example they don't. Using your numbers and say a 3 second lapse in time we get 133 to 167 pts of damage per second or hit. Which certainly is not 100's of points of damage but rather 10's. However, you misrepresented what I wrote. My point was 10's of damage difference. Damage is still done over this 3 second period, just reduced in nature. Lets say its even half, then we get 67 to 83.5 pts of damage lost while you better enable a caster. Let's not even consider that you quote the best case scenario and that most folks don't even do this much damage, making my point even more valid.

When you consider this spell increases the DPS of the melee'rs I'm really confused why there is even a fuss here.

Shattermantle-powered debuffing doesn't increase melee DPS, it is simply a form of damage mitigation for those meleeing the raid boss.

It will increase DPCM (Damage Per Cleric Mana), however, which is a very useful thing to keep in mind in a raid that (in typical PUG strategy) has 2-3 party members spending 75-80% of their time healbotting.

[Angelus_dead]

The easy way to do this would be to fight for a bit and then everyone DDoor out and count up their damage.

Wrong. That is NOT easy, not even close.

Funny,..... only to those who majored in liberal arts and may be lacking in basic math skills.

You make yourself look bad by typing things like that.

It is very easy to show that mm will end up doing more damage than any other spell. In effect it is the most efficient damage per mana use spell.

Ha ha, what? It's LOW level. How can it be most efficient?

Let's just pick one spell for comparison, say Chain Lightning. It's not the best, but it's enough.
Maximized Empowered Chain lightning is 228 damage for 56 mana, or 4.1 damage per mana. Max Magic Missile is 76 damage for 24 mana, or 3.2 damage per mana.

So Chain Lightning wins solidly.... and that's assuming Arraetrikos PASSES his reflex save. If he fails the save, then the dpm doubles from 4.1 to 8.1.

However, Chain Lightning isn't close to the best damage per mana. That would actually go to either Acid Arrow or Acid Fog, which are hurt by Arraetriko's acid resist, but still do more total damage from a single spell.

According to your example they don't. Using your numbers and say a 3 second lapse in time we get 133 to 167 pts of damage per second or hit. Which certainly is not 100's of points of damage but rather 10's.

That is totally wrong. Even in isolation that claim contradicts itself. 133 * 3 seconds = 399. 399 is a number in the hundreds, not the tens.

When you consider this spell increases the DPS of the melee'rs I'm really confused why there is even a fuss here.

Which spell do you think increases melee DPS?

[sirgog]

Let's just pick one spell for comparison, say Chain Lightning. It's not the best, but it's enough.
Maximized Empowered Chain lightning is 228 damage for 56 mana, or 4.1 damage per mana. Max Magic Missile is 76 damage for 24 mana, or 3.2 damage per mana.

So Chain Lightning wins solidly.... and that's assuming Arraetrikos PASSES his reflex save. If he fails the save, then the dpm doubles from 4.1 to 8.1.

However, Chain Lightning isn't close to the best damage per mana. That would actually go to either Acid Arrow or Acid Fog, which are hurt by Arraetriko's acid resist, but still do more total damage from a single spell.

Actually, non-maximized Magic Missile is more efficient in terms of damage per mana than anything other than max-emped-glaciation8'ed Polar Ray or Acid Fog, but the Arraetrikos fight is now so quick that casters can't go through all their SP spamming MM.