Fighter build, need feedback from the experts

[Daedalis]

A good build.

The only thingh i would change is taking the 3rd Rogue level, instead of the 11st Fighter.

11th Fighter is basically a dead level, while 3rd Rogue gives +1d6 sneak attack damage and many skillpoints in good class skills.

Here was my reasoning for that, lvl 12 is where I pick up my last AP for fighter Intimidate, and I want to say there is something else I got at 12th lvl fighter that I wanted, i think another fighter feat. And with the promise of new fighter enhancements coming down the pike, if there is something in that line that I would like to take, hopefully a 12 or 14 lvl fighter will be able to pick them up. But I have been thinking of putting more rogue, or even more pally into the build...but I'll wait for the updates to make a decision on changes. And since the level raise is hopefully just around the corner I'll love to see the extra fighter stuff...but I do like what the extra rogue gives as well. I love to have that extra sneak attack , but most of the time I'm unable to get the sneak attack as they are fixed on me with hate in their eyes.

Very good point and I'll definitely keep this in mind as I get closer to 16....I'm trying to plan this build like it was already open to go to 20. Thanks for the info Noctus!

[Daedalis]

Can't speak for others. Therindal was built to maximize HP. He was started during the time when HP was being touted as more important than AC. I had multiple toughness feats and both fighter and dwarven toughness enhancements. Right now he sits at 499 hp.

And, I seriously wish I had focused on AC rather than on HP with him. IMO not getting hit is much more valuable than having tons of HP.

Therindal is L16 capped so I won't be rebuilding him any time soon. But, my newer characters follow the AC is best build plan and are more survivable. Cratesmasher currently hits a higher AC at L12 while TWF than Therigar can reach s&b. He has <180 hp but is much more survivable.

IMO 350+ hp with high AC is much better in general than the 500 hp w/o AC.

Yeah, I think I've run with Cratesmasher --- TWF WF with intimidate . I was thinking the same thing....If you have a respectable AC that 400ish HP would be good....but that I why I'm putting this up. Someone that has been running a S&B with Intimidate for a while would have some really good info as to where the HP vs AC is a good level.

I'm hoping that the guys who I was inspired to build this guy for will let me know what they think . I'm a noob at the fighter setup....but that is another reason I'm here too. I want to be a useful party member...no matter what the quest is. And I guess the real success of a toon is if you have fun playing the character, and at least that part is a great success!

Thanks for the info Leyoni!

[Leyoni]

Yes, Cratesmasher and Xaber have run some quests together. I thought Xaber was a solid build and very effective.

He hits a bit harder than Cratesmasher and has a better intimidate I think (or you time it better....). Overall we seem to be working on similar goals even though we took different build paths.

I'm needing about a zillion Xorian runs for Chaosgarde and Planar Gird. Every run I've been on someone has pulled one or more of the named loot. Just never Cratesmasher....

See you in game.

[Daedalis]

Yes, Cratesmasher and Xaber have run some quests together. I thought Xaber was a solid build and very effective.

He hits a bit harder than Cratesmasher and has a better intimidate I think (or you time it better....). Overall we seem to be working on similar goals even though we took different build paths.

I'm needing about a zillion Xorian runs for Chaosgarde and Planar Gird. Every run I've been on someone has pulled one or more of the named loot. Just never Cratesmasher....

See you in game.

If ever want to get a Xorian run going look me up....I need a planar gird or 5 lol. And I have a rogue guildie that is leveling with me, so you should have a rogue and a fighter at that point . The other quest I want to run over and over for named loot is Desecrated Temple of Vol for the boots . Shoot I might run that one tonight....that is the last piece of loot I need to be able to move my items around to allow for my +6 items.

Right now Xaber has a 47 Unbuffed Intimidate, and if my math is right by 16th lvl he should have a 54 unbuffed. I'm hoping that I won't have any problems with VoD or hound on elite with the right buffage . My favorite toon to play is my 16th lvl wizzie, but I have to say that Xaber is running 2nd and could very well take the top place as my favorite.

My next toon I want to run an Oversized TWF....unfortunately I have no experience or knowledge on how to build a good one...I'll have to do some research on that one! Is cratesmasher's build online?

Cya in game,
Dae

[maddmatt70]

No offensive capabilities in this build. This mod this build will suck. Look for the fighters excluded lfms in the next month or two and it is builds like these which contribute to it. The bane of rangers is bow rangers and the bane of fighters will be sword and board characters with no offensive feats and no flexibility in combat style.

Edited for clarity.

[Leyoni]

No offense.

Whenever people post or say this I immediately know they intend to be offensive. And, that describes you post as well.

What is more, I disagree.

At issue here is DDO development compared to the totality of AD&D. Range based rangers are not well appreciated in DDO because the world setting and adventures do not cater to or favor them. In an appropriate environment they would be excellent. That just isn't the situation in DDP at the moment.

Now, that could be a deliberate development decision by Turbine or it could be an unexpected consequence of how the adventures have been built. It doesn't mean that range based rangers are not overly welcome but it does mean that it is not inherently the build's fault.

The same is true of high AC, high intimidate sword and board builds. The issue really is one of development by Turbine and how monsters are built. See the discussion here for an ongoing discussion into this very subject. Essentially it comes down to this -- Turbine's present development path makes it optimal to take high DEX TWF builds rendering all other melee builds moot. It isn't that the other builds are bad, it is that Turbine's development of the game has channeled players into optimal builds with little room for variation.

Once more, this may be a deliberate choice on Turbine's part. It could be that it is what the player base wants, what marketing shows sells well, or maybe it is just the personal bias of the development team that this is how AD&D should be played. Who knows. OTOH, it could just be a cumulative and unintended consequence that can be addressed by the right mechanisms.

Regardless, your statement is offensive and, IMO, you intended it to be so. If you had really intended not to be offensive you would have found an inoffensive way to say what you wanted to say.

[maddmatt70]

Whenever people post or say this I immediately know they intend to be offensive. And, that describes you post as well.

What is more, I disagree.

At issue here is DDO development compared to the totality of AD&D. Range based rangers are not well appreciated in DDO because the world setting and adventures do not cater to or favor them. In an appropriate environment they would be excellent. That just isn't the situation in DDP at the moment.

Now, that could be a deliberate development decision by Turbine or it could be an unexpected consequence of how the adventures have been built. It doesn't mean that range based rangers are not overly welcome but it does mean that it is not inherently the build's fault.

The same is true of high AC, high intimidate sword and board builds. The issue really is one of development by Turbine and how monsters are built. See the discussion here for an ongoing discussion into this very subject. Essentially it comes down to this -- Turbine's present development path makes it optimal to take high DEX TWF builds rendering all other melee builds moot. It isn't that the other builds are bad, it is that Turbine's development of the game has channeled players into optimal builds with little room for variation.

Once more, this may be a deliberate choice on Turbine's part. It could be that it is what the player base wants, what marketing shows sells well, or maybe it is just the personal bias of the development team that this is how AD&D should be played. Who knows. OTOH, it could just be a cumulative and unintended consequence that can be addressed by the right mechanisms.

Regardless, your statement is offensive and, IMO, you intended it to be so. If you had really intended not to be offensive you would have found an inoffensive way to say what you wanted to say.

I think the vast majority of the players find sword and board high ac unappealing. There are exceptions or people who have 5 other characters and want to try something different scenarios but I think that is more the reality. Bow rangers would be popular but they are just gimped in game. Sword and board is gimped other then as a tactic or combat style.

You mentioned weapon finesse high ac builds, but dps builds are also very successful in ddo and the most popular build style overall.

[ShadowFox1978]

So, do you think that 439 HP would be too low for a 16 lvl tank?

- and the feats for SoF and prots wasn't just for the clickies....it was required for the extra human intimidate. 4 pts from AP and 2 from the dragonmarks. So far I don't regret taking them, but I'm not sure what I'll be saying when I hit 16 and trying to tank the shroud, hound or vod. I appreciate the feedback Aranticus.

For an evasion tank with the AC numbers you are looking at mid 400's is a solid hp total.

[Daedalis]

No offensive capabilities in this build. This mod this build will suck. Look for the fighters excluded lfms in the next month or two and it is builds like these which contribute to it. The bane of rangers is bow rangers and the bane of fighters will be sword and board characters with no offensive feats and no flexibility in combat style.

Edited for clarity.

Hi Matt....I appreciate your view point and have read your thoughts and arguments on Riots page. I can see your view point on this, but this guy can still dish out some damage. Just because he has a shield in one hand doesn't mean that the other one with the khopesh into isn't doing anything. And my toon is already feat thin as it is...not going to screw him by trying to do extreme offensive as well as defensive.

I have much respect for S&B toons that can keep my butt alive in a quest as well as a TWF that kills things in secs. Let me ask you something. Do you believe that every fighter should be running round with PA, cleave, great cleve, twf? Talk about a boring game if everyone had the same build....but honestly. Your whole arrgument about a S&B toon is that the offensive ablities make it unable to contribute. Offensive capibilities is swing a weapon, hitting, and doing damage right...as long as I'm able to hit and do damage (20 - 70 pt of damage a hit) I would say he is contributing and adding to the kill count. AC and turtleing up are what this type of toon is built for not max damage.....the armored tank so to speak. If I wanted a max DPS toon....I'd build a TWF (which is going to be my next toon to build). My contribution to a group is that my toon keeps mobs in a centralized area so the remainder of my party can maximize their damage. But that is just how I see it.

Every rogue I've played with in this game and a few mages as well have said how much they love having a character like mine in the group. You might be right, the next few mods may make it so the S&B turtle up tank is not wanted....surprise a type of toon that is rendered useless....it's happened before and will most likely happen again. But until I see a lot more people hating on the intimitank....I think he is here to stay and keep agro.

I do believe that you have posted a "intimidation" tank of your own have you not? If you have post a link here, I would like to see what it has to offer. I like to keep an open mind to different builds.

And again, thank you for the view point....all crits are welcome .

[Daedalis]

I've been hearing of a Intimidation tank on Ghallanda with a Buffed AC around 80. He is a Fighter/pally/rogue build so I'm assuming he has evasion....I just would love to know how the heck you get an 80 AC .....is there an elemental armor that I just don't know about yet.

[Noctus]

I've been hearing of a Intimidation tank on Ghallanda with a Buffed AC around 80. He is a Fighter/pally/rogue build so I'm assuming he has evasion....I just would love to know how the heck you get an 80 AC .....is there an elemental armor that I just don't know about yet.

I think this is show-off AC, most propably of a dwarf, which lasts for about 20 secs 3 times a shrine,if he activated 2 boosts, is tumbling around a giant, has maxed out racial giant dodge enhancements, favored enemy bonus, is boosted by a near paladin, a bardsong, a near halfling heroes companion, his friendly rangers +5 brakskin, sacrificed a newborn goat to C´Thulu´Ughg in the last 13 days and Virgin is in the 3rd house of Saturn.

[Baranor]

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly but are you going to have a 29 str and a 23 dex at 16 assuming no more tomes. Are you figuring for +2 or +3 tomes? Would you be better off with 1 more pt of str(16th lvl ability pt raise)

Also I see armor mastery but no tower shield mastery, are you not planning to use a tower shield?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Turbine's present development path makes it optimal to take high DEX TWF builds rendering all other melee builds moot.

Two weapon fighter builds definitely needed love and have received it. However, that statement is just not true. The beauty with D&D is balance will never be realized. In DDO you need not only an understanding of pen and paper but a full understanding of the arcade elements of DDO... aka the game mechanics. Even though I agree with most of your argument, your quote here is misleading. There are plenty of THF's that out kill TWF's. The weapons and items you find, along with your play style will make or break your character. THF's are a blast to play. They can be just as uber as TWF. I rolled a build with 70ac. Boring. TWF... Boring... to me.

Just had a highly publicized pvp battle with an "elite" barbarian TWF wielding TWO tier 3 green steel dwarven axes. I beat him 4 times in a row wielding a Crippling Greataxe of Greater Dwarf Bane. He won zero. My only point is in pnp I would have lost this duel by a large margin. But this aint pnp, its DDO. Build and items are only 2 of the 3 elements of building your toon. YOU can make your character do things others simply can not. And thats the beauty of DDO to me. (And no, Im not interested in pvp'ing anyone, so dont ask. I play this game for the questing..)

Again, I like your thread, and you rock, but lets not advertise the incorrect notion that High DEX TWF builds are the only way to build a fighter. All I am saying is there is ROOM FOR EVERYBODY. ROLL whatever you want...

[Daedalis]

I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly but are you going to have a 29 str and a 23 dex at 16 assuming no more tomes. Are you figuring for +2 or +3 tomes? Would you be better off with 1 more pt of str(16th lvl ability pt raise)

Also I see armor mastery but no tower shield mastery, are you not planning to use a tower shield?

The build is a work in progress . My str @ 14th lvl is 28 & dex is 22....still trying to figure out why it is showing as a odd #. I was trying to revamp the original toon from memory since it had changed a little bit, but I think it got thrown off somewhere.

And I do have a tower shield and have taken 2 of the tower shield EH so far, but have only taken 1 of the crit EH. Playing with the character planner and running a toon can end up as two very different creatures.

I can get his AC up 53 self buffed, and can probably get 55 with the help of a ranger. Still trying to figure out how some of these guys are getting high 60 and low 70 ac's. One day I'll figure it out .

[maddmatt70]

Hi Matt....I appreciate your view point and have read your thoughts and arguments on Riots page. I can see your view point on this, but this guy can still dish out some damage. Just because he has a shield in one hand doesn't mean that the other one with the khopesh into isn't doing anything. And my toon is already feat thin as it is...not going to screw him by trying to do extreme offensive as well as defensive.

As pointed out in Riots thread, sword and board do approximately 54% of the damage of a high end twf build. If you could change your build around swap out a couple of wasteful feats and then you could gain a twf damage mode where you could do alot more dps closer to those high end twf damage build. You can actually contribute in nearly every dungeon.

Look at it this way fighters are about feats. Sit down and irregardless of whether a feat is offensive in nature or defensive in nature list out the top 10 melee feats for a fighter. Compare those feats with the feats that you have in your current character build. You have hardly any of those feats.

Just try building a character using at least 8 of the top 10 melee feats. that is a much better way to go in the game.

I have much respect for S&B toons that can keep my butt alive in a quest as well as a TWF that kills things in secs. Let me ask you something. Do you believe that every fighter should be running round with PA, cleave, great cleve, twf? Talk about a boring game if everyone had the same build....but honestly. Your whole arrgument about a S&B toon is that the offensive ablities make it unable to contribute. Offensive capibilities is swing a weapon, hitting, and doing damage right...as long as I'm able to hit and do damage (20 - 70 pt of damage a hit) I would say he is contributing and adding to the kill count. AC and turtleing up are what this type of toon is built for not max damage.....the armored tank so to speak. If I wanted a max DPS toon....I'd build a TWF (which is going to be my next toon to build). My contribution to a group is that my toon keeps mobs in a centralized area so the remainder of my party can maximize their damage. But that is just how I see it.

Turtleing is a tactic - my fighter norg for example did it on ocassion when he has tanked sulu in the past he would alternate between twf and S&B with the purpose of maintaining aggro (swapping to twf) or to have a slighty higher ac/ dr (sword and board or turtle when on isolation with sulu). Tactics are something situational not something to be used in every quest and every fight. I am not obsessed in kill counts, but one important thing to me is to get a quest done relatively quickly and sword and boards are not very effective at that. So really how fun is running into every room and turtling with the occasional sword and board meleeing? Try adjusting tactics for the party at hand you don't need 6 intimidate sword and board in a vod run, so perhaps at that point you pull out your two weapons and go into dps mode. Flexibility and creativity is fun.

Every rogue I've played with in this game and a few mages as well have said how much they love having a character like mine in the group. You might be right, the next few mods may make it so the S&B turtle up tank is not wanted....surprise a type of toon that is rendered useless....it's happened before and will most likely happen again. But until I see a lot more people hating on the intimitank....I think he is here to stay and keep agro.

I do believe that you have posted a "intimidation" tank of your own have you not? If you have post a link here, I would like to see what it has to offer. I like to keep an open mind to different builds.

And again, thank you for the view point....all crits are welcome .

This is not about intimidate which is again a tactic. I have run with a barbarian who had 56ish intimidate, a high dr, and could effectively turtle and then pull out the greataxe and whack away in addition very well. That is a solid build. It has got multiple tactics it can turtle and intimidate, it can initimidate in offensive mode, it can be offensive and quite frankly can do it all. The problem is you are not contributing enough when dps is called for with the build you have. Since dps is called for the majority of the time in ddo your build is not contributing enough.

(By the way I did post an intimidate build back in mod4-5 which I never actually built or played it really was a joke/to stimulate conversation. I wouldn't build that character then and I sure wouldn't build it now because it doesn't have enough dps.)

It is not the next few mods that I am talking about it is now. Inflexible sword and boards are not needed and are inefficient in ddo.

[Daedalis]

As pointed out in Riots thread, sword and board do approximately 54% of the damage of a high end twf build. If you could change your build around swap out a couple of wasteful feats and then you could gain a twf damage mode where you could do alot more dps closer to those high end twf damage build. You can actually contribute in nearly every dungeon.

Look at it this way fighters are about feats. Sit down and irregardless of whether a feat is offensive in nature or defensive in nature list out the top 10 melee feats for a fighter. Compare those feats with the feats that you have in your current character build. You have hardly any of those feats.

Just try building a character using at least 8 of the top 10 melee feats. that is a much better way to go in the game.

Now this is a discussion.... Let me ask you this, based on my build....what do you consider to be "wasteful" feats? And if you could change them to reflect the type of build your talking about.....what would they become? I still say that I contribute a great deal to completing a quest. I have no problem picking up a greataxe if needed to chop things up (the only thing i can think of at this time for that would be the portals in the shroud raid)....but I'm a khopesh fighter, and again the damage done from that weapon with 17-20 crit can be very high IMHO. I was running in a party with a THF build and I was only 10 kills out of the lead. Of course I don't get the pleasure of running with a Zerg team of Power gamers either, everyone I play with is usually just a very casual gamer. So if we are talk Power gamer build vs. casual I'll concede to your point as I don't run with that kind of group (yet anyway). Usually the only builds I've come up against that leave him in the dust on kills are Rogues. 98% of all quest that I have done to this point I've been in the thick of battle swinging away trying to kill or passify the mobs (paralyzing), vorpal (depending on mobs - orthans and devils mostly), wounding, etc.

Turtleing is a tactic - my fighter norg for example did it on ocassion when he has tanked sulu in the past he would alternate between twf and S&B with the purpose of maintaining aggro (swapping to twf) or to have a slighty higher ac/ dr (sword and board or turtle when on isolation with sulu). Tactics are something situational not something to be used in every quest and every fight. I am not obsessed in kill counts, but one important thing to me is to get a quest done relatively quickly and sword and boards are not very effective at that. So really how fun is running into every room and turtling with the occasional sword and board meleeing? Try adjusting tactics for the party at hand you don't need 6 intimidate sword and board in a vod run, so perhaps at that point you pull out your two weapons and go into dps mode. Flexibility and creativity is fun.

I have to say that 98% of the quest so far I haven't needed to turtle up to the point of me not swinging at all. I've had a couple of the end bosses that I've needed to do that on, but I was also 4 levels lower than the quest. And I agree that intimidation is a tactic, one that can be used in about 96% of all quests. And turtleing up is another tactic, ok I can agree to that as well. Do you not like the tactics builds that use stunning blow or any other tactics that is a S&Ber as well? And your very correct, only one intimidation tank is really needed for any quest and if there is another in the quest with me....I love it too...I get my backstab bonuses! I'm not saying there won't be a point where I won't need to respec to be a more helpful DPS fighter....this game is forever evolving.

But I have to say, that this build for me has been a blast to play and have gotten a ton of compliments on the build....I get to raise the cleric if he/she falls in the line of battle. And usually I'm the last one standing....with the ability to self heal or party heal or raise dead. I have 70% chance to use a heal scroll atm. Which granted, for a fighter with a ring of the ancestors or a shroud raid item can raise as well. I do see your point about having multiple S&B fighters in the VoD run. And again, with this guy....I'll be doing on average 30-60 points of damage on whatever I'm hitting and it would be more if I build one of the shroud khopeshes. If you’re saying that a twf is doing 60-120 points of damage....I can agree with that....they have 2 weapons. I have a pure barbarian designed to be a tyrant when it comes to damage so I know how quickly things can go do when one person is hitting for 100+ pts of damage a hit.

This is not about intimidate which is again a tactic. I have run with a barbarian who had 56ish intimidate, a high dr, and could effectively turtle and then pull out the greataxe and whack away in addition very well. That is a solid build. It has got multiple tactics it can turtle and intimidate, it can initimidate in offensive mode, it can be offensive and quite frankly can do it all. The problem is you are not contributing enough when dps is called for with the build you have. Since dps is called for the majority of the time in ddo your build is not contributing enough.

If this is a build that has the same ability that my tank has and can switch to DPS...great, do you think you can get that guy to post his build? I'm not saying that it is not possible to have a build that is offensive and defensive....but someone running both is going to have a whole in the armor somewhere(or I would think they would). If not, a ton of high end gear and raid items. I can say, that I haven't gotten into the grind out the gear mode yet.....although I'm beginning to with this guy lol. But again, this is exactly the information I'm looking for....from every kind of player...this is some great info! Let me ask this then.....IYHO, how much DPS is "enough"? So far that is the only issue that I've seen that you’re having with any of the S&B builds.

(By the way I did post an intimidate build back in mod4-5 which I never actually built or played it really was a joke/to stimulate conversation. I wouldn't build that character then and I sure wouldn't build it now because it doesn't have enough dps.)

It is not the next few mods that I am talking about it is now. Inflexible sword and boards are not needed and are inefficient in ddo.

I thought that someone on the Riot page had built a TWF intimidation tank as a response to the what would you build if not a S&B intimitank. For some reason I was thinking it was your post. I'm loving this kind of discussion here, great input and some really good points as well...I'm looking forward to hearing your answers to some of my questions .

[maddmatt70]

Alot of questions. I will give you some of my views and answers to your questions below, but tomorrow is mod8 so will not be on forums other then to look at release notes or during downtime. To fully give you all the information you are asking for you would have to look me up in game. I play on khyber and my characters are in my signature below. Another comment is its a little tough to extrapolate your build to end game as you do not have your projected end game stats listed.

Now this is a discussion.... Let me ask you this, based on my build....what do you consider to be "wasteful" feats? And if you could change them to reflect the type of build your talking about.....what would they become?

The first two feats to go would be the 2nd and 3rd tier sentinel dragonmark feats. These have little value and should get axed. The next 4 weakest feats are the first sentinel dragonmark, bullheaded, skill focus intimidate, and Force of Personality. The question is can you hit an intimidate score in low to mid 50s and get rid of 1 or more of these feats and is your will save at about 25ish or higher without force of personality. My guess is you can get rid of the bullheaded feat which gives the least bang for your buck (just gives a +2 to intimidate and +1 to will save). If you got rid of those three feats and insterted twf, itwf, and gtwf you have made a great stride toward making a more effective offensive mode character. The other feats that would be nice are power attack and weapon specialization (only the first one because you can get the enhancment for only that one), but you could pick up either power attack or weapon specialization when the level cap goes up).

I still say that I contribute a great deal to completing a quest. I have no problem picking up a greataxe if needed to chop things up (the only thing i can think of at this time for that would be the portals in the shroud raid)....but I'm a khopesh fighter, and again the damage done from that weapon with 17-20 crit can be very high IMHO. I was running in a party with a THF build and I was only 10 kills out of the lead.

Regarding the shroud raid you should be in an offensive mode when whacking on the portals on part 1 and on parts 4 and 5 and perhaps even on much of part 2. Ac really isn't that important on parts 4 or 5, but really killing the bad guy faster is because it relieves pressure on the clerics; i.e., they heal for less rounds. You do 54% of a twf and in fact much less because you have only 2 offensive feats whereas twf have like 5 or so and naturally do more damage.

Of course I don't get the pleasure of running with a Zerg team of Power gamers either, everyone I play with is usually just a very casual gamer. So if we are talk Power gamer build vs. casual I'll concede to your point as I don't run with that kind of group (yet anyway). Usually the only builds I've come up against that leave him in the dust on kills are Rogues. 98% of all quest that I have done to this point I've been in the thick of battle swinging away trying to kill or passify the mobs (paralyzing), vorpal (depending on mobs - orthans and devils mostly), wounding, etc.

This is a good point regarding casual vs. power gamers, but I would argue and nearly all of the folks on these forums would agree with me that it is easier to acquire offensive gear then defensive gear. Getting a chattering ring even for a power gamer is difficult, but a shroud 2 tier weapon or even a mineral 2 shroud weapon is far easier.

Gear aside the game is different for casual vs. powergamers. Casual players should take things more slowly and also they can count on the casters less. The biggest difference in my opinion between the casual and powergamers may be the quality of the spellcasters specifically the sorcs and wiz. This has to do with not knowing what spells work in ddo and when to use them. Intimidate can alleviate some of the lack of cc ability of casters for casual players so I would argue that a casual player would be in a defensive mode more then a powergamer, but still even for casual players there are many instances in ddo where offensive modes are more valuable then defensive modes. The cost for becoming moderately more offensive isn't much and worth it.

My hats of if you outkill folks in the quests with this build perhaps that is a sign that you are good player or that you twink heavily what have you, but this build will not outkill at nearly the pace of players in a dps build at end game. Also don't bother comparing the shroud kill count as melees in part one should be hitting the portals while the casters with 1 or 2 melees help kill the trash mobs on part 1 after the first 16 are killed to open portals and that is where most of the killing take place.

I have to say that 98% of the quest so far I haven't needed to turtle up to the point of me not swinging at all. I've had a couple of the end bosses that I've needed to do that on, but I was also 4 levels lower than the quest. And I agree that intimidation is a tactic, one that can be used in about 96% of all quests. And turtleing up is another tactic, ok I can agree to that as well. Do you not like the tactics builds that use stunning blow or any other tactics that is a S&Ber as well? And your very correct, only one intimidation tank is really needed for any quest and if there is another in the quest with me....I love it too...I get my backstab bonuses! I'm not saying there won't be a point where I won't need to respec to be a more helpful DPS fighter....this game is forever evolving.

You should respec now under the conditions of the current game.

But I have to say, that this build for me has been a blast to play and have gotten a ton of compliments on the build....I get to raise the cleric if he/she falls in the line of battle. And usually I'm the last one standing....with the ability to self heal or party heal or raise dead. I have 70% chance to use a heal scroll atm. Which granted, for a fighter with a ring of the ancestors or a shroud raid item can raise as well. I do see your point about having multiple S&B fighters in the VoD run. And again, with this guy....I'll be doing on average 30-60 points of damage on whatever I'm hitting and it would be more if I build one of the shroud khopeshes. If you’re saying that a twf is doing 60-120 points of damage....I can agree with that....they have 2 weapons. I have a pure barbarian designed to be a tyrant when it comes to damage so I know how quickly things can go do when one person is hitting for 100+ pts of damage a hit.

It sounds like you like flexibility: the capability to heal, to turtle, to sword and board, etc. so why not an offensive mode capability as well.

If this is a build that has the same ability that my tank has and can switch to DPS...great, do you think you can get that guy to post his build? I'm not saying that it is not possible to have a build that is offensive and defensive....but someone running both is going to have a whole in the armor somewhere(or I would think they would). If not, a ton of high end gear and raid items. I can say, that I haven't gotten into the grind out the gear mode yet.....although I'm beginning to with this guy lol.

The player is Yushis, in the Ransack guild on Khyber, and his barbarian character is Brandgien. I have run 3 or so vods with Brandgien. I can't remember if he is pure barbarian or is a 14 barbarian 2 fighter build, but it didn't appear to be a gear intensive build although the shield from the Hound is probably pretty important to the build. I don't know the specifics, but I think it has max damage reduction. It was pretty effective in Vod especially with those orthons. I have also been running with Soulshaker's ac barbarianish character while we are leveling which I think is similar. He is an excellent player/character builder so I am curious as to how that build turns out.

But again, this is exactly the information I'm looking for....from every kind of player...this is some great info! Let me ask this then.....IYHO, how much DPS is "enough"? So far that is the only issue that I've seen that you’re having with any of the S&B builds.

The 100 million dollar question. For most of the time S&B don't do enough dps in my opinion. This has to do with often repeated quests (only so much content in ddo) such that repeating quests favor offensive builds, quests favoring offensive builds in general, and the documented dps differential between twf, thf, and S&B.

All I have time for.. Good luck with your build and enjoy mod8..