Black Abbot Anniversary

[Gol]

Heh, I remember when it first came out, I was leveling my wizard and got him to cap by playing the new content. My Ranger has never completed any of the flagging quests, and my cleric has only done 2 of them. My bard did Inferno once, just at a pot shot of getting an Antithesis robe.

Mod 8 will take us back to the orchard for 30 minutes, but after that I'm never going back.

[Angelus_dead]

My bard did Inferno once, just at a pot shot of getting an Antithesis robe.

Antithesis is for noobs. The leet kids have I€Y RA!MEN+. Go get it. You know you want it.

[Gol]

Antithesis is for noobs. The leet kids have I€Y RA!MEN+. Go get it. You know you want it.

Resistance +4 > Resistance +3. I couldn't care less about the AC bump from the Raiment.

[Borror0]

(I really can't guess what is meant by "At least seven")

He meant that you would probably want someone cleaning the floor while you're in the room so that you have a "welcoming party" when you solve the puzzles.

[Angelus_dead]

He meant that you would probably want someone cleaning the floor while you're in the room so that you have a "welcoming party" when you solve the puzzles.

I had considered that, but that doesn't make sense when the respawn-rate of the summons is factored in. Killing them doesn't have value if they're going to auto-die and be replaced anyhow. (That may be anachronistic of me)

I mean, if the 7th guy can kill wave after wave of summoned undeads by himself, then surely one of the three pairs that the rest of the team has been split into can kill the final wave when they return from their challenge together.

Realistically, the 7th guy was merely going to waste his mana and then supply fresh meat to spawn a mummy, which could be especially fatal if one of the pairs didn't have the ability to buff with Greater Hero before coming back.

[Big-Dex]

If you can believe it, I still stand among the extremely frustrated when it comes to this quest.

It is not for a lack of skill. I personally can do all three puzzles with a fair degree of consistency (not much room for error though). The asteroids still require an unusual tactic to get done, but it is what it is.

It is not for a lack of effort. I have attempted this quest several hundred times. I can't even begin to guess how many times. Our guild runs it for a 2 hour session once, even twice per week. We are insanely determined to finish it and get it down consistently.

It is not for a lack of a team. We have 6-7 guildees who know each other well, play extremely well together, can beat every other gig in the game at all difficulties. We roll this thing regularly together, though we have some who come and go and who are not as skilled in the puzzles, we do have a consistent core crew rolling it.

I don't know how many people on how many different servers are doing it at the rate that the fellow above with 20 wins on it is doing it, and how much effort it takes each run to get that win, but I can say for sure that this RAID is not for the faint of heart nor the unlucky. It seems to me that the stars must be aligned just right for the win or you must have skillz that move the stars into the right alignment to pull it off. That is not for the casual gamer, nor the merely skilled gamer. Power gamers don't even go in there.

I am not one to be pessimistic (my past posts on this RAID prove that), but this RAID is my bane and my frustration in the game I thoroughly enjoy playing nightly. I don't necessarily want the RAID to be easier (I like a challenge), but I firmly believe that the alignment of stars factor needs to be fixed so that a skilled party can pull it off with some rate of consistency.

Now if you want to flame, that is your prergogative, but if you have some tip for me, please PM me. The help would be appreciated. The fact is, what could be a fun RAID is a frustrating RAID. Devs, I wish it weren't so.

~ Dex

[Aspenor]

I had considered that, but that doesn't make sense when the respawn-rate of the summons is factored in. Killing them doesn't have value if they're going to auto-die and be replaced anyhow. (That may be anachronistic of me)

I mean, if the 7th guy can kill wave after wave of summoned undeads by himself, then surely one of the three pairs that the rest of the team has been split into can kill the final wave when they return from their challenge together.

Realistically, the 7th guy was merely going to waste his mana and then supply fresh meat to spawn a mummy, which could be especially fatal if one of the pairs didn't have the ability to buff with Greater Hero before coming back.

Maybe they expected us to want to use a kiter? I know that whenever I get left on the middle platform alone, as long as I have a deathward and GH, and preferably a FOM, I can just run in a circle and occupy all the monsters.

Of course, you don't really NEED a kiter either, it's kindof a waste of resources and 1 player's time.

[Angelus_dead]

It is not for a lack of skill. I personally can do all three puzzles with a fair degree of consistency (not much room for error though). The asteroids still require an unusual tactic to get done, but it is what it is.

Oh, but that's wrong.

See, look at this:

7) Is this quest consistently doable on the live servers as it sets now, without exploits and "unusual" tactics?
Yes.

As you can clearly see, it's consistently doable without unusual tactics, because it says right there that it's consistently doable without unusual tactics. So there's nothing stopping you from beating it straight-up.

PS. Please tell me your tactic!!!11

[vtecfiend99]

you know, I almost never agree with A_D or the way he talks to people, but this is SPOT ON. Awsome job on compiling everything for this thread sir, hats off to you.


Anyone want to guess if we'll get a SINGLE dev response to this well thought out, to the point, non insulting thread?

A_D can probably correct me here but it seems to me that quit a few of the "exploits" that were fixed over the last year were fixes to ways people had found of beating this raid without actually being quest bugs (i.e. terrain or a.i. problems)
soul stones anyone? general bugs that allowed people to beat the raid consistently.
the fact that this raid STILL sits in its current state is mind boggling.

this raid, and indeed the entire mod, was a failure in that NO ONE runs this stuff anymore. Really, if it wasnt for robe farming from ghosts when do you see lfm's up for this or hear a guildie call out a fleshmaker run when deciding what quests to do? not very often.


hey, there's no raid in mod8! while that doesnt bother me at all, would have been a perfect time to reexamine this raid no?

[Angelus_dead]

PS. Please tell me your tactic!!!11

What I mean is, there is a strange reluctance among the people who beat this raid to give an in-depth explanation of how they do it. It's not like VOD or something where players will try to tell each other as much as they remember, and get into little squabbles on exactly how the details work.

But as a developer clearly explained above, beating the Abbot raid doesn't involve tactics that are exploitive or even unusual. Therefore, shouldn't we be able to talk about the precise steps in public, without fearing some violation?

[moorewr]

Thanks for all the links and history, A_D.

I am doubly amazed at the people who can routinely beat the raid now.. Oddlived.. an amazing player to be sure.. is his group a singular sensation?


Let me ignore the problems with the puzzles and think about the nonsensical structure of the raid.. here's what I think:

If you want to have the puzzles in the raid.. put them between you and the boss. They'd make more sense and his moat and crocodiles.. Anyone who survives them reaches in the one-room fight with the Abbot.. no porting him in and out, just a brawl with infernos and encasements...

Make the approach marches longer, with mobs, and make the puzzles the last part of the march.. either make it so you need someone to make it to the end of each puzzle to operate a lever click a rune to lower the barrier to the Abbots room.. sure.

That way everyone has to be able to solve one of the puzzles.. you could even have a token system like the Titan so the party has to split up...

[miceelf88]

will there ever be any more comment from teh devs, or will this continue to be The Raid That Dare Not Speak Its Name?

Agree with the previous person who said that Mod 8 with no raid would have been a good opportunity to fix (what appears to me to be) the most broken raid in the game.

[Gol]

What I mean is, there is a strange reluctance among the people who beat this raid to give an in-depth explanation of how they do it. It's not like VOD or something where players will try to tell each other as much as they remember, and get into little squabbles on exactly how the details work.

But as a developer clearly explained above, beating the Abbot raid doesn't involve tactics that are exploitive or even unusual. Therefore, shouldn't we be able to talk about the precise steps in public, without fearing some violation?

To this day, I don't know a single player on Argo that's been in a successful Abbott raid that didn't involve exploits. I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but every completion I've heard of involved extreme cheese at best but usually outright cheating. I've even reported guildmates in there while they were in the process of cheating (nothing done by GMs, of course). Even people on the forums don't talk about how they do it (especially the asteroids, the #1 cheated puzzle). I'm just not convinced it's doable by rules-abiding players.

[vtecfiend99]

To this day, I don't know a single player on Argo that's been in a successful Abbott raid that didn't involve exploits. I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but every completion I've heard of involved extreme cheese at best but usually outright cheating. I've even reported guildmates in there while they were in the process of cheating (nothing done by GMs, of course). Even people on the forums don't talk about how they do it (especially the asteroids, the #1 cheated puzzle). I'm just not convinced it's doable by rules-abiding players.

agreed. every time an exploit is fixed, I know a group on argo that sets out bending other known exploits to an advantage in there. I'll never report anyone for anything ever, because it's not my business if i'm not there. but is it not sad that most of the people who see this thing through to the end are bending, if not breaking the rules?

[Healemup]

What I mean is, there is a strange reluctance among the people who beat this raid to give an in-depth explanation of how they do it. It's not like VOD or something where players will try to tell each other as much as they remember, and get into little squabbles on exactly how the details work.

But as a developer clearly explained above, beating the Abbot raid doesn't involve tactics that are exploitive or even unusual. Therefore, shouldn't we be able to talk about the precise steps in public, without fearing some violation?

/signed

Please have pitty on us if you are doing this consistently and without exploits and unusual tactics and share.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

To this day, I don't know a single player on Argo that's been in a successful Abbott raid that didn't involve exploits. I'm not saying it hasn't been done, but every completion I've heard of involved extreme cheese at best but usually outright cheating. I've even reported guildmates in there while they were in the process of cheating (nothing done by GMs, of course). Even people on the forums don't talk about how they do it (especially the asteroids, the #1 cheated puzzle). I'm just not convinced it's doable by rules-abiding players.

Im not convinced anyone really cares about this raid any more.

We've asked time and time again for a Dev to say something on it...and we get nothing. People have come up with alternatives to the rediculous challenges that the raid presents, and we get nothing. We must've had 50-100 posts on this in the past year and it now seems the only person posting on it is A_D. I give him 10 outta 10 for tenacity.

As for the exploiting, meh, I was one to stand on my soapbox about that but when Turbine dont care about it I wont waste my time.

I think the times come and gone for an Abbott fix, I think even if it was doable on a consistant basis as other raids are it still would be an unpopular quest, that no one would run.

We've a whole section of the game sitting idle, an explorer zone (one of the best in the game IMO) left to rot, some of the most quirky and imaginitive quests in the game rarely ran and we're at a time when people are screaming for new high level content and more to do...but still nothing.

The Abbotts dead...no pun intended.

[Dexxaan]

Does Turbine have any idea of the amount of game-time they could squeeze out of us if the Abbot raid was actually doable and not a Lag infested Donkey-Kong meets Space Invaders Meets Frogger Fusion?


Pretty soon the Raid Loot will even be outdated (actually it already is for many). And then what?

Just a POV of course.

[Angelus_dead]

I think the times come and gone for an Abbott fix, I think even if it was doable on a consistant basis as other raids are it still would be an unpopular quest, that no one would run.

Yep, I thought that 1 year old was basically their last chance to do something about it. By now they must have just about forgotten it exists.

As for the rest of Necropolis: it has some problems too, most of them not inherent in the detailed quest design, although often difficult to fix. But the brokeness of the zone's capstone raid sets a tone that the area is worthless, and that the devs don't care about it- so why should players?

Seriously, that Abbot fiasco cost DDO more subscriptions than they think: even though few people would have cared about that single quest enough to quit, the failure to fix it symbolized that the DDO devs had stopped doing their jobs, so there'd be nothing good coming in the future.

[Big-Dex]

What I mean is, there is a strange reluctance among the people who beat this raid to give an in-depth explanation of how they do it. It's not like VOD or something where players will try to tell each other as much as they remember, and get into little squabbles on exactly how the details work.

But as a developer clearly explained above, beating the Abbot raid doesn't involve tactics that are exploitive or even unusual. Therefore, shouldn't we be able to talk about the precise steps in public, without fearing some violation?

I have no fear of stating what we do. The four unusual tactics we use involve the following...

1) We choose 6 to live at the first fight and the rest die. We take their soul stones to the puzzles with us. This increases our chances at the puzzle and keeps folks from sitting on the platform wasting manna while killing wave after wave of mobs that will die anyway with each successive wave. Shortmanning it (less than 12), we have less chances at puzzle success.

2) We summon spiders/ghouls whenever we can on Asteroid puzzle. We quickly greater dispel them and flesh-to-stone them to surround us and protect us from the asteroids. If there are fighters up there with no summon ability, they toss asteroids. If you think this is easy, try it.

3) When back down in round 2 with Abbot, we try to get encased on an ice flow. Gives us a fighting chance against inferno and avoids phased wraiths. This has a huge luck factor to it too.

4) If we don't get all three puzzles on first attempt, we recall out, reform and try again. Techinically, this should not be necessary, as we are supposed to get sent a second time, but it is a complete waste of resources to try and it is tough to make to a second attempt.

There you have it. If they are exploits, it will be the first I have heard, as I have mentioned, or have seen each of them mentioned before on these forums. Some have even stated that they have had "official" word that they are not exploits. So...

As for their "cheesiness" ... well... I agree... I don't like it. I would rather it be that we can just have 6 people go up, do the puzzles, come down while 6 wait it out on the platform. Badabing Badaboom ... we take the big guy down. The fact is, this is the only way to cut down the luck factor to a barely doable extreme. Even with these "cheesy" tactics, it is still so hard that we have yet to succeed while using them, as my post above states.

Scoring the asteroids still is tough business using the unusual tactic described above. It takes some serious skillz and practice to pull off with any consistency. Couple that with the typical falling through unphased tiles, misfiring wands that actually hit water but do not form an ice flow and wands that disappear on death in round 2 and the zero-room-for-error factor in the puzzles ... .oh yeah... LAG issues that always hit at the worst possible time (especially over the past three weeks) ... and you have ... well ... you all know...

In any case, I would have to agree, that unless Eladrin meant that the four tactics above are not "exploitive", or for that matter "unusual", than what he said in answer to my question (it was my post you cite above) is absolutely wrong! It is not doable. I have yet to hear of a single group on any server, period, who has done it "straight up" ("straight up" meaning none of the tactics described above or similar unbeknownst to me tactics are employed... period), let alone seen any tangible proof of such.

FWIW...
~ Dex

[Angelus_dead]

I have no fear of stating what we do. The four unusual tactics we use involve the following...

For the record, I don't believe you qualify as "people who beats this raid". You're still working on it, right? Therefore, the list of tactics you know about does not necessarily include what actually gets used.

(That's better than me, because I can no longer muster the force to drag other players into Abbot attempts with me, when I know how it will end...)

2) We summon spiders/ghouls whenever we can on Asteroid puzzle. We quickly greater dispel them and flesh-to-stone them to surround us and protect us from the asteroids. If there are fighters up there with no summon ability, they toss asteroids. If you think this is easy, try it.

There's a rumor that another technique is in active use, as supported by posts like these, which claim that non-spellcasters are at no disadvantage there.

However, that particular post might be relating to the fact that sneaky methods can allow you to choose which characters go where, so that a group with only 2-6 casters could nonetheless get them all sent to Asteroids.