Black Abbot Anniversary

[Angelus_dead]

I would agree if they have a "raid developer" that is sitting around doing nothing. But I doubt that is the case.

However it remains the case that improving the Abbot to be better than the original version would give a higher payoff in gameplay and product quality than spending the same manhours on new quests (especially low-level quests).

That will remain so until the level cap moves on, and could be further aided by some minor improvements to Abbot raid loot. (Particularly, adjusting items to be attractive to both casters and warriors, such as Greater Abjure Focus on Enduring Conviction and Paralyzing/Weakening on Staff of Petitioner. Plus make the robe, helm, and belt not suck)

[Eudimio]

However it remains the case that improving the Abbot to be better than the original version would give a higher payoff in gameplay and product quality than spending the same manhours on new quests (especially low-level quests).

What you say is true.

However, how confident are you that the developers will:

A. Spend the time and resources to improve the raid.
B. Make it playable and beatable without exploits.
C. Deliver this product while it is still viable at end-game.

For those handicappers out there--The developers believe they have already delivered this.

[Hafeal]

where to start, where to start ... excellent thread. well stated positions.

To me, the singular moment when you KNOW the raid is a failure, and that is the correct word, is when you run a "raid race" and one of your most recent raids isn't in the race. Your programming, your time, your resources of one of your latest and greatest - and you can't include it in your big promo event. No matter what Turbine says about the raid being completed - they KNOW it is only a select few who are doing it, legit or non-legit.

An attempt to make "elite" raid for a certain segment appears to have been the ideology at work; which is odd when it is casual gamers who make the game run. What makes a good raid work is it can bring together casuals and powers. Hound, Shroud do that in my opinion. VoD is THE elite gamer raid now and it should be. And casuals can still get in there.

Let me add 1 more thing - the flagging mechanism with the sigil is the single worst flagging method of all. Worse then re-running DQ or VONs. Yes, you only have to get the sigil drops once, but after a year of running the quests I am still missing my last sigil piece. Brutal. With DQ and VONs, I can get in and run them quick - with PUGs, with friends and have a good time.

Abbot: An absolute, colossal statement of failure.

And it will take more than making the raid easier for power gamers to complete it to get the masses to even give the raid a chance at this point - sentiment and perception have been set and there will have to be many a pretty carrots dangling to get the masses to run this raid.

[Wizzly_Bear]

To me, the singular moment when you KNOW the raid is a failure, and that is the correct word, is when you run a "raid race" and one of your most recent raids isn't in the race. Your programming, your time, your resources of one of your latest and greatest - and you can't include it in your big promo event. No matter what Turbine says about the raid being completed - they KNOW it is only a select few who are doing it, legit or non-legit..

100% qft. Though this has been stated to them many times and they fail to grasp the logic, or worse, fail to do anything about it.

[Borror0]

However, how confident are you that the developers will:

A. Spend the time and resources to improve the raid.
B. Make it playable and beatable without exploits.
C. Deliver this product while it is still viable at end-game.

It's clearly too late now, but that just adds up to the other failures of module 5, like the handling of DToV.

[Angelus_dead]

However, how confident are you that the developers will:

Oh I have zero positive expectations for this. If they cared about a working Abbot raid, it would have been mostly fixed 6 months ago at the latest. The suggestions I'm giving are based on the developers' ability, not their willingness.

From the latter perspective, I agree that hoping for improvement is unrealistic.

[Strakeln]

Lol

I hope you caught my drift there (it can easily be done, but I'm not taking points to share, so you know what kind of tactic it is).

[Angelus_dead]

Let me add 1 more thing - the flagging mechanism with the sigil is the single worst flagging method of all. Worse then re-running DQ or VONs. Yes, you only have to get the sigil drops once, but after a year of running the quests I am still missing my last sigil piece. Brutal. With DQ and VONs, I can get in and run them quick - with PUGs, with friends and have a good time.

You're wrong there, although I won't try to prove it too much.

They key is that if the Abbot raid itself weren't such a failure, people would've been much more eager and able to help you get flagged. For example, do you know where the piece you need drops? If there was any value to getting into the raid, one of your party-members would've known and taken you there.

I can get anyone flagged in under 2 hours, if I'm motivated (less usually). Start with 12 minute Infernos, then 10 minute Flesh, then 6 minute Vols, and finally as many 4 minute GOPs to get the last of the random pieces. Have someone get the window before the others recall out so you can repeat the quest in-place without jogging across the Orchard again.

[geoffhanna]

Wow A_D, nice thread!

I would have bet money I would never type these words but "I nominate A_D's thread for TotW".

[Turial]

Wow A_D, nice thread!

I would have bet money I would never type these words but "I nominate A_D's thread for TotW".

Man I just snorted chicken soup over that.

[Eudimio]

I can get anyone flagged in under 2 hours, if I'm motivated (less usually). Start with 12 minute Infernos, then 10 minute Flesh, then 6 minute Vols, and finally as many 4 minute GOPs to get the last of the random pieces. Have someone get the window before the others recall out so you can repeat the quest in-place without jogging across the Orchard again.

Hehe,

I was out of town for the first two days of the Mod 5 release. The OP and some friends indeed flagged my main for the preraid in two hours. I think we had to run inferno twice.

[Crazyfruit]

Yes, you only have to get the sigil drops once, but after a year of running the quests I am still missing my last sigil piece.

The last one is a random. Just do a few loot runs or go with people who'll offer up their spares to everyone. Flagging for the Abbot is way better than the DQ.

[Gennerik]

Angelus_Dead, I think you pretty much covered everything that is wrong with this raid, and why it's so unpopular with 95% of the players (that 95% is completely taken at random, but I'd still bet it's close, if maybe low). I think a number of your suggestions (with my own comments) are as follow to make this raid something that people are willing to try:

• Add additional chests: Add a second chest to the raid that everyone gets. A third should be added for completing the puzzles before the Black Abbot dies (all of them at least once, on whichever time it takes). The quest is already punishing enough that it should be more rewarding to reflect that.
• Puzzles are optional: The puzzles should be optional, and slightly adjusted. Asteroids should be slowed down (either spawn rate or actual speed) in order to actually not rely on having a perfect connection. Each puzzle should also give something that makes the overall fight easier (such as the Ice Wand allowing you to get out of Inferno), but the quest is still able to be completed without solving a single one, just it's harder and takes more resources
• Inferno damage should change: Inferno HP damage should drop slightly (maybe not), but the SP drain should be looked at. It should still be around, giving groups the option to drink some potions to get back to fighting strength, but should take no more than about 400 SP during the entire duration. This means people can brute force the quest if they failed the puzzles, but it takes more resources (mana potions) and you lose out on a third chest.

I think the Abbot exemplifies the reason why I'm not bothered by the fact that there isn't a raid in Module 8. All too often, raids are designed with "This is how the raid will be beaten" as an attitude instead of "This is how the raid should be beaten". There's never any room to try new things, and instead of simply making the proper way more rewarding, any other way is nerfed to be unsuccessful. There's never a feel of "I know this is how we do it, but I wonder if there is a better way", and as soon as the way is figured out, the raid is about as static as you can get.

As it stands, the Black Abbot is horrible because the players have been bludgeoned into completing the raid in only one manner, and while it's fairly common knowledge what needs to happen, it's still almost impossible to get through the checklist without something going wrong and you fail (or it becomes so completely not worth the time and resources it takes). It's not a fun raid, when it has such potential to be, and until things are changed, the only reason for the Litany of the Dead series is to get the stupid Icy Raiment or the Minos Legens (or get Shield Pieces... *laugh*).

[Hafeal]

I hear you and I appreciate the response. For the great players, the power gamers, the uber looters out there flagging will never be an issue. For casual gamers, who are less likely to hook up in those circles, flagging will be more of a challenge. I will say - if the raid were more popular yes, flagging would be easier. I have traded for several sigil pieces. That 3rd spot eludes me though ...

Regardless, to me, a "random" drop of necessary items to flag for a raid is poor design. It is poor game play design, it is poor story-line design and it is poor role-play design. It is an impediment to keep friends and guilds progressing together. I mean, the game is supposed to be fun - not work, isn't it?

You're wrong there, although I won't try to prove it too much.

They key is that if the Abbot raid itself weren't such a failure, people would've been much more eager and able to help you get flagged. For example, do you know where the piece you need drops? If there was any value to getting into the raid, one of your party-members would've known and taken you there.

I can get anyone flagged in under 2 hours, if I'm motivated (less usually). Start with 12 minute Infernos, then 10 minute Flesh, then 6 minute Vols, and finally as many 4 minute GOPs to get the last of the random pieces. Have someone get the window before the others recall out so you can repeat the quest in-place without jogging across the Orchard again.

[Angelus_dead]

I will say - if the raid were more popular yes, flagging would be easier. I have traded for several sigil pieces. That 3rd spot eludes me though ...

That piece comes from Inferno of the Damned. If you bring a full group there's over a 90% chance it'll drop for someone. It seems likely that you haven't done Inferno much, because it's the only Orchard quest where knowing what to do to win is not entirely obvious.

That's something that someone would've helped you with, if they had a motivation to get people into the Abbot raid. And if more people cared about Abbot flagging, someone else would've known how to tell you where it drops.

[Hakushi]

This is a very good thread and I really hope it gets devs attention.

[alchilito]

Nice thread AD.

Kudos.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

[*]Puzzles are optional: The puzzles should be optional, and slightly adjusted. ... Each puzzle should also give something that makes the overall fight easier (such as the Ice Wand allowing you to get out of Inferno), but the quest is still able to be completed without solving a single one, just it's harder and takes more resources.

And oddly when it first went live the dev who designed them said the puzzles were supposed to be optional and work exactly like you say... It was kind of a kool idea that people had the A/B approach... the devs just changed it when they realized that their "puzzles" (which are NOT puzzles by the way, they are crappy mini games) were so bad that everyone chose B and ignored that part of the raid. Then they did the Kindergarden thing and said you have to play their way or they'd take their ball and go home.

[Dracolich]

I have never done the Abbot Quest. I think the only quest of that chain I have done is GoP and that Fleshmaker. The storyline seems cool, I just cant find any groups nor any people that want to partake in doing anything other then farming GoP or farming Tapestries. If the Icy Rainments were an end reward for Abbot maybe more folks would attempt it but I doubt it. It seems the only people I see outside the Abbot building are DDO Korea.

[moorewr]

I still say, fixes or not, the teleport-to-puzzles concept will never feel satisfying.

why oh why didn't they have you transit the puzzles (once) to get to the end fight? Have mobs as well as the puzzles, and at the end of these three separate paths, levers which have to be pulled at the same time to lower the barrier for the end fight.

If they devs still want to force you to take a random puzzle.. they still could, and you'd still need six+ to get sent to all three puzzles...

Addendum about mod 5 content & flagging:
I enjoyed Necro pt 3 quite a bit, although I wouldn't do tormented more than I have to...

The Sigil concept was fine.. certainly more interesting than grinding 60 relics... but I agree with A_D that the raid undercut all of the Mod 5 content and put the flagging mechanism in a negative light...