warchanter gameplay help

[Deadz]

Hi.. i been playing my warchanter alot and having fun.. but.. I was in a group the other day, where i would jump into the fray and get cut down quick. People commented "he doesn't know what he's doing obviously cause he's a bard w/ a flail.." Well, i understood that i was pulling the monsters on me by hitting them so hard, but what else do i do differently? Am i not supposed to jump into the frey after the tanks.. i was really confused and didn't know how to keep mobs off me without staying away from the fighting.. any advice? Someone wanna explain the normal tatics in dd? was the content just too high? I understand i'm squishy and all, but err.. that left me clueless.

[Reisz]

Diplomacy...

[Randolf_Drake]

Make sure before you jump into the fray that you have Displacement cast. 50% miss chance for mobs is nice, and helps to mitigate the damage I take.

[Deadz]

**** i didn't take diplomacy, i take it i should have.

[Aerendil]

I'm presuming the character you're discussing is the one in your signature?

In which case, as a 3Bard/1Fighter chances are you don't have access to many of the good Bard spells / equipment / enhancements / other toys.

You're probably also making a jump from fighting kobolds and troglodytes, to suddenly tackling ogres, trolls, minotaurs, constructs, and elementals. If so, you've also noticed they can do a lot more damage.
Nobody likes being smacked by an ogre at level 3 or 4 for 30-50 damage on a crit.
*splat*

So as mentioned above, hotkey your Diplomacy skill if you've put points into it. This will work in the exact opposite way that Intimidate works. It'll get monster attention *away* from you, which you want.

Also, depending on your race, stats, and equipment, you may not want to be the first person running into a room full of bloodthirsty ogres.
Ok, let me revise that. You should *never* be the first person running into that room.
But depending on stats, gear, etc. you might want to be the 2nd or 3rd person, or perhaps not even run in at all in the first 30 seconds.

Unless you have the equipment, stats, and enhancements to back it up, Bards don't want to be the ones enemies are swinging at. Especially if you're just starting out, learning the class, and your equip is sub-standard.

The best advice I can give is to stand back, let someone else be the first person to get a monster's attention, and then decide your best course of action (i.e. either flank the enemy, or stay back and heal, or work on fascinating the rest of the room, etc.).
Time will give you the experience to know what best to do, and eventually things that might seem confusing right now will be common sense.

Good luck to you, and hopefully you'll enjoy playing Bard!

[Freeman]

It sounds like you are getting into some of the mid-level content now. The stuff mentioned above helps, but the biggest thing is to learn tactics. Kobolds and other lowbie stuff usually don't hit that hard. Hobgoblins and bugbears are a little tougher. Ogres and trolls will probably have the ability to kill you with one shot when you first start running into them. For a new warchanter, it would probably be best if you let another melee-type take the lead and draw aggro first. Also, let others know that you are new to the class and game. Usually they'll have more patience with new players, provided you listen to their advice.(If they don't have any patience or advice, then you probably shouldn't be running with that group) You'll be able to go toe to toe with most mobs later on, but it will probably be a bit rough for now. Also, remember that Fascinate can change a group of 10 mobs running at you into a group of 10 mobs waiting to be slaughtered one at a time.

Edit: I started typing this before Aerendil posted, but it looks like we were thinking along the same lines. Those ogres are often a shock to new players. I remember once I was in a group with a new sorc and wizard, both around level 4-5, doing Greymoon. At the first group of ogres, they both ran up and tried to use Shocking Grasp on the ogre. *ding* *ding*, both of them went splat before I could even tell them not to run in front.

[Deadz]

Yeah the person tanking would engage, then 5 seconds later i'd come in hitting from behind, and they would turn and hit me for like 30 pts of damage... Maybe the lack of deplomacy, the haste i came in, and the high damage i'm doing w/ a two hander all contribute..

I was a little turned off by the attitude of the people i was playing with, but at the same time i thought it was frustrating to them my newness, which i can understand. I'm an experienced mmo player, but this "action mmo" is a tad different and might take a little more getting use to...
Maybe warchanter isn't a good "first class" as i don't have "ubbbber gear"... , if only i can hold out to 400 pts, lol i really want to open that drow up!

[JetEskimo]

You are probably running a low-dex build, as that seems to be all the rage (due to the worthlessness of AC at end-game). This means you are getting hit pretty much every time they target you. Plus, since you are a Warforged, more than likely the clerics can't/wont heal you very much. A lot of people just assume that people playing a WF can take care of themselves.

Hang in there, it will get better for you real soon.

Next bard level (4), you'll be able to pickup Blur. Pretty much a must-have for a warchanter (at least until you can snag displace at 6). 20% miss chance on every swing, gotta love it.

For now, here's some things you can do:
Keep an eye out for Fortification items, like a belt or something. Even a low-grade one will put your chance of avoiding crits at 50% (pretty sure about that). A crit from an ogre is a nasty thing, and this will help keep your HP from dropping faster than you can do anything about it. Because you are a d6-based class you need this kind of help even more so than a pure fighter.

Shield potions will be helpful as well. The duration sucks, but they are good to have on hand. Grab the fighter defensive enhancement as well. Those two things together can jump your AC up 7 points in a hurry when things look ugly.

Take the Healer's Friend enhancements, and let the cleric in the group know that you have done so. If you get in a group with a WF arcane who is willing to heal you, then this isn't such a big deal, but that can be a rarity in low level PUGs. Perhaps you can remove these enhancements later on, but for now (while running in random groups) it is a good idea.

Spend some cash on repair potions. Even if you don't have a lot of cash or plan on using them all the time, they are still good to have around when you really need them and the cleric's attention is elsewhere.

I'm hardly an expert at this game, but I've run the 1st to 6th level road a whole lot lately and these couple of things should help you out.

Cheers!

[Thrudh]

If you're taking aggro from the main fighters, then they are probably not using two-handed weapons (and you are - so you're doing more damage).

I would switch to one-handed weapon and a shield at your level... for better AC... and so you don't grab aggro too easily...

You have the right idea, waiting a few seconds before wading in... Maybe wait a few seconds more, or switch targets more often (hit one bad guy, switch to another... enough to help with damage, but not enough to grab aggro).

Most of all, tell people you're new to the class and/or game... Most people will be helpful and understanding...

Luck to you

[sirgog]

If you're taking aggro from the main fighters, then they are probably not using two-handed weapons (and you are - so you're doing more damage).

I would switch to one-handed weapon and a shield at your level... for better AC... and so you don't grab aggro too easily...

You have the right idea, waiting a few seconds before wading in... Maybe wait a few seconds more, or switch targets more often (hit one bad guy, switch to another... enough to help with damage, but not enough to grab aggro).

Most of all, tell people you're new to the class and/or game... Most people will be helpful and understanding...

Luck to you

I also concur with going sword&board (or axe & board or whatever) at early levels. And don't consider Diplomacy, it's only worth having on the lowest HP characters.


When you have your songs active, you'll be a lot like a barbarian in melee - capable of dealing serious damage, but low on damage mitigation abilities, so you'll get hurt. You can deal with this through bard spells, but most of the better defensive ones (like Displacement) won't be available for a few levels.

Assuming you have a Charisma of 12 or more, I'd advise taking the spell Suggestion at next level. At low level, all of the most damaging foes (Ogres, Giants, Trolls etc) have very low saving throws, and can generally be charmed with about a 50% success rate with this spell. Not only is a charmed Ogre not attacking the party, but it's also attacking foes (helping you deal damage) and also getting attacked (getting itself killed).

Practice with the spell before using it in tougher quests, however, because you want a feel for when it will run out (it lasts 24 seconds at Brd4/Ftr1). And once you get to higher level content, swap out the spell because the foes will be more resistant to it.

[Schmackdown]

Use Diplomacy.

Find appropriate DR docents and swap between them.

Use Blur and Displacement.

If you are pulling aggro from the melee in your group, find better melee. If they have the same buffs you do, that really shouldn't be happening on a regular basis.

Make sure you are targeting a mob that's already locked up with someone else, and consider engaging them when they're close to death- not to steal kills, but to ensure that if you do manage to out-DPS the primary aggressor, the mob won't have time to turn on you.

Watch your splash damage from THF around soft mez and unaggroed mobs.

Hone your Fascinate abilities long before you ever even consider charms. With proper application of the former the regrettable use of the latter in parties is entirely unnecessary.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

I wouldn't worry about that ...

Haste, Fascinate and an ungodly amount of hit points (for a bard) will be your friend.

If you did not build your bard with much con (as a warchanter) then I would take a serious look at the character and consider re-roll *shudders*

Seriously though ... fascinate is very effective ... it will allow you to take the mobs on one at a time.

Problem is you have to be able to live long enough to get the fascinate completed in a large group of mobs.

Blur, displacement, haste ... all your good buddies ... and a ton of HP is your best friend.

A good warchanter will still have issues out meleeing a good fighter or barbarian (as it should be) ... but a good warchanter will out melee an average ftr/barb build.

With good con and the right items you should be able to get your HP up to 400+.

Dump dex as your ac is your displacement and you need the points for str and con.

You only need about 12-14 cha for a warchanter melee type bard.

My opinion ...

[Freeman]

You said you waited for the tank to engage, but that isn't all you should do. You should probably hold back until the creature the tank is attacking has taken at least 10% damage before you start to attack. If not, you run the risk of drawing aggro after your first swing. By holding back and making sure the tank has firmly established aggro, then you are less likely to draw the aggro to yourself immediately. Even if you are outdamaging the tank, by the time you make up the difference, the mob would usually be almost dead anyway.

To avoid the aggro from glancing blow damage, Diplomacy is probably your best best for now. The advice to use a shield and one-handed weapon would help avoid a lot of the aggro, and if you did pull it, you could block and reduce the damage you take. After you get past the mid-levels, you'll see big improvements in your survivability. You're just reaching a point where damage ramps up and your characters will take a few levels to catch up to it.

To all those giving advice, keep in mind that he's a new player, and his character is only level 4. A lot of the advice being given won't be useful until later.

[rimble]

Definitely Sword and Board for a little while longer. To avoid glancing blow aggro, get a little more AC, and to shield block when you get aggro. You can come out swinging in a few levels once you have Displacement to protect you and you'll have more songs so keeping Ironskin Chant up is alot easier. After that you get to look forward to UMDing Stoneskin wands.

[jarlaxle_dourden]

Definitely Sword and Board for a little while longer. To avoid glancing blow aggro, get a little more AC, and to shield block when you get aggro. You can come out swinging in a few levels once you have Displacement to protect you and you'll have more songs so keeping Ironskin Chant up is alot easier. After that you get to look forward to UMDing Stoneskin wands.

To the OP, obviously there are many ways to make this type of char.

I have looked into Tanked up Warchanters as well ... the kind described above with Twilight Mith FP and a +5 Mith TowerShield, displacement, stone skin, bark skin, ect, ect ...

It really will be a matter of play style. If you were going to go this route then Dex would be important.

If, on the other hand, you wanted to be able to provide more DPS (TWF or THF) then I would suggest dumping dex a bit and concentrating on str and con.

One caveat to mention ... if you are going TWF then you will need at least a 16 (I think) to get GTWF/STWF. I had to swallow a +2 dex tome to get my dex high enough to take the feat.

Again, it all depends on your play style and the type of warchanter you are trying to build.

However, I can't stress enough the value of Con ... and the fact that you do not need that much charisma in order to run a good warchanter. As I said before a 12 will be enough.

Many good warchanter builds in the bard forum ... check them out.

[Solmage]

I'm going to assume you are a high strength warforged. As such, you should consider learning stunning blow or improved trip, or heck even both if you can spare the feats (unlikely - imp trip itself is way too expensive, but it's easier to land.. anyway..)

Warforged get enhancements that help those abilities land easier. There are also cheap weapons available at vendors and in the AH that help out. (vertigo for trip, weighted for stunning blow) (You can always swap them out later when/if you no longer need them) You can trip enemies to make sure they don't hit back, or stun them which also makes the next few blows auto crit while they can't move - in essence they're toast.

You also need to learn aggro management - similar to a rogue, you're able to steal aggro from the 'tanks' - and you need to make sure you only do so when they can't fight back - either the creature is webbed or in other forms of crowd control while you're swinging at it, the tank is an intimidation tank that keeps the creatures' aggro with intimidate (in which case, attack the creature only from behind to avoid getting whacked), you do your own crowd control (stun, trip, bard spells), or you step back and don't swing as quickly if you're outdamaging your tank.

Also, if there is a patch of web or other crowd control standing just beside you, lure the creature into it. The advice to wait until the tank has firmly established aggro (I'd say at least 20% damage) is also spot on.

[hydra_ex]

Honestly, there's not much you can do. But don't get frustrated, I got my 14 bard/2 fighter warforged warchanter to level 16 yesterday. He deals great damage, he's a great boon to the party, has more than 300 hitpoints, can self cast most buffs or UMD them. The only problem is his reflex save... I get hit for 100+ dmg to the eladrin in devils.

Anyways, don't get discouraged, warchanters are just too fun to play. And remember one thing: You are not a tank. You are a bard, so don't sweat it if the tank is surviving 20% better than you. Remember its your songs that make him that much better at what he does.