What Makes for a GOOD Raid Cleric

[Aakkara]

Question to all clerics. What Abilities, Feats, Spells, Gear, Strategies make for a good raid cleric?

Just looking for ideas, suggestions, and feedback.

Thanks

P.S. I posted this not because I am a noob cleric, but because I want to make sure that I am making sure that I am not missing some very valuable componet to being a raid cleric and letting my team down.

I started out back in the day when Battle Clerics were all the rage and did not have 32 Pointers Unlocked, so I went Drow and 16-10-8-10-16-16 (Yes I know the low Con is a Killer, but I WAS a NOOB then ) My Current Stats are 16-12-14-10-30-22. My Feats Currently are MT - Extend - IMT - Emp Heal - MAX - Quicken. I have around 1465 SP and Am just about to craft a Tier II GS Item which would add 100Sp to this total. And also free up 2 Slots on this Char to address the super low HP Issue.

[rezo]

WE did an all cleric Reaver raid on Argo. sever. It was fun to see all those cometfalls on the reaver at the end. Going to try a Shroud Raid with half clreics and half caster on Argo. Thinking Titian nexts.

[sirgog]

Question to all clerics. What Abilities, Feats, Spells, Gear, Strategies make for a good raid cleric?

Just looking for ideas, suggestions, and feedback.

Thanks

I'd focus on two of the following and do them well. Make sure your party knows your specialty. In addition, all Clerics should be prepared to issue relevant buffs at the start of raids as required.

1) Healing
2) Debuffing/CC (I group these together as both are forms of damage mitigation)
3) Melee DPS


For Healing, you want maximise for mass cure spells (mass cure spells tend to be the best in most raids), plus you want a Superior Potency 6 scepter (or the Improved Devotion 8 set bonus), and at least the third tier of each of the Cleric Life Magic line and Cleric Wand/Scroll damage line. You'll also want twitch skills, (gained through leveling clerics in bad PUGs). In tough raids (e.g. Shroud Hard/Elite), you'll want significant resources too - for Elite I recommend 10 mana pots and 300 Heal scrolls, this cost should be shared by the party. Also, more SP is very helpful.

For Debuffing and/or CC, you'll want a very high Spell Penetration rating - which usually means being pure cleric, and taking both Spell Penetration feats plus carrying a Spell Pen item. You'll also need a maxxed (or very close to max) Wisdom.

For melee DPS, you'll need a pretty dedicated battlecleric build (which will cause you to need to make sacrifices in the Spell Penetration and SP areas), and you'll want to make sure that your group wants you playing this role. (In fact, if I'm playing as Numot and want to run a Shroud group, if I see a group looking for a fighter type that has all the Clerics they want, I send them a tell and ask them if they want a cleric built for melee DPS - if I join a group that's after a Cleric, I don't usually play this role). You can be a very effective party member (3/4 as effective as a Barbarian at melee, 3/4 as effective as a traditional Cleric at healing and doing both simultaneously), but it isn't everyone's playstyle.

Gearwise, the only true essential is the aforementioned Superior Devotion 6 or better item. Other good items are things that increase your survivability (Greater False Life; Minos Legens; +15 Balance item; Boots of the Innocent or Kardin's Eye).


The feats, however, that no cleric should be without in current raids:

1) Maximize Spell
2) Quicken Spell (you may only seldom turn it on)

[Aakkara]

What are your preferred Debuff/CC Spells and when and how should you use them?

Thanks

[Aakkara]

I currently carry 12 DV III, is that worth it or should I ditch it? - See Stats Above in the Edited Main Post!

[Impaqt]

I'd focus on two of the following and do them well. Make sure your party knows your specialty. In addition, all Clerics should be prepared to issue relevant buffs at the start of raids as required.

1) Healing
2) Debuffing/CC (I group these together as both are forms of damage mitigation)
3) Melee DPS
um... THe only thing I can say here, that no one in their right mind, while putting together a High end raid, is going to say... "What we need now is a Melee Cleric!"

Dont get me wrong.. I'm All For Clerics that can melee.... But seriously.... That is the furthest thign form a Raid Focus I can think of. How bout some offensive Casting??? Harm, Searing Light, Cometfall, Blade barrier..... All highly effective in raids....


For Healing, you want maximise for mass cure spells (mass cure spells tend to be the best in most raids), plus you want a Superior Potency 6 scepter (or the Improved Devotion 8 set bonus), and at least the third tier of each of the Cleric Life Magic line and Cleric Wand/Scroll damage line. You'll also want twitch skills, (gained through leveling clerics in bad PUGs). In tough raids (e.g. Shroud Hard/Elite), you'll want significant resources too - for Elite I recommend 10 mana pots and 300 Heal scrolls, this cost should be shared by the party. Also, more SP is very helpful.
~CHOKE~ 300 Heal Scrolls? 10 Mana Pots????? In a Shroud????? I havent come close to that kind of resource useage in VoD on Elite..... Let alone Shroud.... Thats First week of release type resource useage.... Unoptomized party useage levels..... not hard core Elite raiding resource useage.

For Debuffing and/or CC, you'll want a very high Spell Penetration rating - which usually means being pure cleric, and taking both Spell Penetration feats plus carrying a Spell Pen item. You'll also need a maxxed (or very close to max) Wisdom.

For melee DPS, you'll need a pretty dedicated battlecleric build (which will cause you to need to make sacrifices in the Spell Penetration and SP areas), and you'll want to make sure that your group wants you playing this role. (In fact, if I'm playing as Numot and want to run a Shroud group, if I see a group looking for a fighter type that has all the Clerics they want, I send them a tell and ask them if they want a cleric built for melee DPS - if I join a group that's after a Cleric, I don't usually play this role). You can be a very effective party member (3/4 as effective as a Barbarian at melee, 3/4 as effective as a traditional Cleric at healing and doing both simultaneously), but it isn't everyone's playstyle.
3/4th of a Barbarian? Really? I dont see how thats remotely posible.

Gearwise, the only true essential is the aforementioned Superior Devotion 6 or better item. Other good items are things that increase your survivability (Greater False Life; Minos Legens; +15 Balance item; Boots of the Innocent or Kardin's Eye).
OK, This Devotion thing is Driving me nuts.... THROW AWAY your "Devotion" Items and start carryign POTENCY on your clerics folks.... Superior Potency 6 Items are Everywhere..... and do the exact same as Superior Deviotion, Plu Increase damage on things liek Blade Barrier and Cometfall.


The feats, however, that no cleric should be without in current raids:

1) Maximize Spell
2) Quicken Spell (you may only seldom turn it on)

ACtually, I Seldom turn Quicken OFF

Sirgog.... Theres more than one way to play a cleric.... Most of my builds are Offensive Casting First with some ability to melee thrown in for good measure.... and I raid Constantly....

How your cleric is built or how you play your cleric has very little to do with how much you raid.

How much you raid has EVERYTHING to do with how often you WANT to raid. If the answer is "I wanna raid All the time" the solution is Simple. Get into a Raiding guild, Make some friends, Dont be an A$$, and have fun raiding...... THere is no Magic build that will suddeninly make someone a better Player.... Or give them a Charming Personality, Or Cure their A.D.D., Or mkae other people like you.

I think there is only ONE thing a Cleric really NEEDS to be a raid CLeric.... and thats Quicken SPell..... Having a HEAL interupted is probobly the worst thign that can happen in a Raid. and if you dont have Quicken... it WILL happen... Often... High Damage aoe attacks are common in end game raids.

Beyond that, its all about you rather than the build.

[FoxOne]

you'll die very often end game.

[liamfrancais]

Well I don't think you need much of anything special in reaver or hound. I have not been in the shroud yet although I am ready for it, now as far as I can tell for VOD you need a Butt load of heal scrolls and Mana pots because that one is just insane to cleric granted Rudadonna is only level 14 so yeah she was in over her head but the 16's didn't fair any better. Oh and before you waste a heal on the main tank cast a remove curse on him then a heal.

[sirgog]

Impaqt, I'd be surprised if you've been on Shroud Elite runs without using large amounts of mana pots. Anywhere from 3 to 10 is the norm, with large amounts of Heal scrolls too. This is in good groups. Shroud Normal doesn't require a raid-specced Cleric, I mentioned Elite because the OP wanted to know about the hardest stuff @ endgame.

In the key fights at today's endgame, Cometfall, Searing Light and Harm are garbage in raids, and Bladebarrier is situational (it's stellar early in Shroud part 2 and late in VOD, other than that, it's the best Cleric spell but take it off your primary hotbars in current endgame raids). Even fully specced for it, Searing Light deals less damage than a critical hit from a greataxe. (This may change with new raids - e.g. we may see future raid bosses with high AC and sane amounts of HP - here spells like Searing Light may be useful in raids again for more than just gaining aggro and trying to steal the kill once the battle is already won).

Personally, if I already have one melee-oriented Cleric in the group and I'm group leader, I look straight away for Clr15/Xxx1 builds (xxx = Ftr, Pal or Rgr), as two competently-built battleclerics are better at healing and better at melee DPS than one healbot and one barbarian are combined. Current endgame (save Hound of Xoriat) features raid bosses with such insane amounts of HP that melee DPS is the only way to kill them - here having an extra melee (that can also heal when required) is often optimal.

You are definitely right about Quicken (although I do turn it off in the Shroud part 4 and 5 when playing a Healbot role). I think Maximize is equally important, however.


And, of course, once you hit level 14, Superior Potency 6 is strictly better than Sup Dev 6 - but a Cleric can also be effective in raids using only Improved Devotion 8 from the set bonus, that's why I mentioned the other option. Sup Pot 6 carries my strong recommendation, however, as gear that Clerics should use almost all the time, except when they have explicit reason to use something else (say Greater Spell Pen 6 to try to land a debuff, or in non-raid quests, to land things like Symbol of Persuasion).



As far as debuffs go in raids:

For trash mobs:
Symbol of Stunning
Symbol of Fear (I don't recommend this in the current endgame raids as killing all foes is pretty important in all of them; but with Mod 8 coming this may change)
Bladebarrier - Sometimes dealing 260 damage to a foe per hit is better than debuffing them...

For raid bosses:
Symbol of Pain
Symbol of Weakness (note: both of these work only against some raid bosses - trial and error will tell you which)
Bestow Curse (Arraetrikos is immune)

Note that to use these in any useful way on difficulties above Normal, you'll need the Spell Penetration feats (both of them).

[Impaqt]

Well I don't think you need much of anything special in reaver or hound. I have not been in the shroud yet although I am ready for it, now as far as I can tell for VOD you need a Butt load of heal scrolls and Mana pots because that one is just insane to cleric granted Rudadonna is only level 14 so yeah she was in over her head but the 16's didn't fair any better. Oh and before you waste a heal on the main tank cast a remove curse on him then a heal.

Misconceptions......

Dunno what your definition of "Buttload" really is, but Lets asuume it means a LOT... liek sevral hundred scrolls and what.. a Dozen mana pots????

A well run, tight group of folks doing VoD on Elite should be able to do it wilth less that 50 Scrolls and maybe 2 Mana pots. You diotn need to cast Remove curse if the tank isnt getting cursed.... or is repaired instead of healed.....

[Impaqt]

Impaqt, I'd be surprised if you've been on Shroud Elite runs without using large amounts of mana pots.

Last Shroud Elite we did, I dont think I used a Single Potion..... We dont Elite it every night by any means, but I'd be surprised if I average more than 2 or 3.

Last VoD on Elite was a 2 Potter as well.

Now, Maybe if your Solo Clericing an Elite run you might need 10.....

[sirgog]

Misconceptions......

Dunno what your definition of "Buttload" really is, but Lets asuume it means a LOT... liek sevral hundred scrolls and what.. a Dozen mana pots????

A well run, tight group of folks doing VoD on Elite should be able to do it wilth less that 50 Scrolls and maybe 2 Mana pots. You diotn need to cast Remove curse if the tank isnt getting cursed.... or is repaired instead of healed.....

Dead right. VoD is very very very expensive in a bad group, but in a group that uses sensible strategy, it usually costs at most one stack of Heal scrolls per cleric on Normal, and the same plus a couple mana pots on elite.

I'll edit this part - Impaqt ninja'ed me above The most expensive raid to run at the moment is Elite Shroud - due to Arraetrikos' DPS and HP, and the no-rez zone in part 4, I've never heard of a group beating it without mana pots (which can be done on VoD elite by a stellar group)

I've been in a series of elite shroud runs recently that've been run by Boldrin on Khyber, with extremely geared-up players from the top guilds on Khyber in them. 2 Cleric runs with one Reconstructer arcane tend to cost 20 mana pots, 3 Clr runs tend to cost 10; that's total. Never heard of anyone crazy enough to solo cleric Elite - I've done it on Normal and had to use one pot in part 4




One last thing to the OP: One of the best things about the Cleric class is that it's the second most important class in the current endgame raids (only Bard is more important); groups want more Clerics than they do Bards, and clerics aren't played as much as other classes - meaning you'll get into raid groups to practice enough to develop your own style.

[liamfrancais]

Misconceptions......

Dunno what your definition of "Buttload" really is, but Lets asuume it means a LOT... liek sevral hundred scrolls and what.. a Dozen mana pots????

A well run, tight group of folks doing VoD on Elite should be able to do it wilth less that 50 Scrolls and maybe 2 Mana pots. You diotn need to cast Remove curse if the tank isnt getting cursed.... or is repaired instead of healed.....

Well in your perfect world I am sure that is true, but in the world of pug lets get a group together and run this raid I would suggest you bring at least a 100 heal scrolls and 10 mana pots.

[FoxOne]

Well in your perfect world I am sure that is true, but in the world of pug lets get a group together and run this raid I would suggest you bring at least a 100 heal scrolls and 10 mana pots.

It is currently the most intensive raid resource-wise.I wouldn't even think of bringing my cleric in a pug.

[shane1122]

P.S. I posted this not because I am a noob cleric, but because I want to make sure that I am making sure that I am not missing some very valuable componet to being a raid cleric and letting my team down.

I started out back in the day when Battle Clerics were all the rage and did not have 32 Pointers Unlocked, so I went Drow and 16-10-8-10-16-16 (Yes I know the low Con is a Killer, but I WAS a NOOB then ) My Current Stats are 16-12-14-10-30-22. My Feats Currently are MT - Extend - IMT - Emp Heal - MAX - Quicken. I have around 1465 SP and Am just about to craft a Tier II GS Item which would add 100Sp to this total. And also free up 2 Slots on this Char to address the super low HP Issue.

Aakkara,
Sirgog and Impaqt are both making different points that are really dependent on if you 1) plan to run mostly PUG Raids where every Raid is a box of Chocolates or 2) Plan to mainly run Guild Raids where you "tune" your cleric to your Guildie's known strengths and weaknesses.

All my cleric does is Raid and 99% of those are PUG Raids as I am in an "uncommon" timezone (GMT +1). I have run with very strong groups and only drank a single pot in VoD elite, I have also pugged with groups (yes, recently) that took until the mana pools went dry and I went through several pots just to beat down Harry in Part 5.

As a Raid cleric hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.

These would be my suggestions for a "Raid cleric"
1) The best Raiders know the Raids. Know how the bosses are defeated and what specific kit and spells you should be packing to make sure that even a weaker group can complete the quest. e.g. You should know to grab Mass Bulls and Bears at the last shrine before the Hound, remind players to pick up remove curse and fire pro pots before VoD, etc. Judge the party up front and take necessary measures. Are they all wearing the VoD plate and carrying greensteel or do they look like they equipped themselves off the AH? PUG Raids are usually a mix of both.
2) Spell points, spell points, spell points. Max them. At lvl 16 as a Drow you should be shooting for circa 1800.
3) HP, HP, HP. Your starting Con was a bit low so make it up with Toughness (Minos helm), +6 Con item or weapon, GFL item and three Tier greensteel HP item.
4) Pack the supplies to shore up a weak Raid group. That means 100 plus Heal Scrolls, 20 Raise dead/Res scrolls, and half a dozen major pots on hand for every Raid.
5) Go full blown. If you are not a battle cleric, drop the Str and Dex items. You are not going to ever hit Harry or Sally in melee and dropping your AC by 3 points is not going to make any difference in the high level Raids. Replace the Str bracers with the VoD bracers for more SP and spell pen, drop Dex boots for Boots of the Innocent to get your saves up, replace the Cha cloak with a greensteel one for 45 more HP. My cleric has two weapon sets: greensteel mace and Lorrick's shield for when I need to turtle up and greensteel mace/sup pot VI for standing back and healing.

It is a process to acquire all the above kit and it certainly does not happen over night... but that is why we go Raiding.
-Shane

[Impaqt]

It is currently the most intensive raid resource-wise.I wouldn't even think of bringing my cleric in a pug.

QFT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The chance of failure onthis raid in a Pug is too great to be willy nilly about 10 Mana pots and 100+ Heal scrolls.... thats near a MILLION gold in Resources... FOr what???? What drops out of vision that wold make it worthwile for a cleric to drop that kind of investment in a pug?

[Varr]

In my opinion, class specialization is more usefull in 12 person raids than in 4-6 person questing. So the better a rogue is with traps the better, the more dps a barbarian does the better, the more potent the bard song the better. Same can be said of the cleric........which can diversify very well and be very potent in many areas.......but if Im forming a raid of 12 people, I would always prefer healbot clerics to any other. I have 10 people doinging there thing.......from dps to cc to specialty........none can heal as well as a cleric and a cleric can not do the other things as well as a person in another specific catagory. So to me, a sold out pure healbot is built for raid support better than any other. I like halfling personally thanks to the dragon marks, but just my preferance. With two heal bots you have 10 very confident people able to do the heavy lifting knowing they are not going to die under normal circumstances........makes everyone preform better when the healer is not swinging an axe. Much like power attack for rogues, Im not sold on quicken for healbot clerics.........mostly because thus far I have not really had issues with interuptions. Ive at one point had quicken on all my clerics to test how it changes the game for me, but likey due to play style alone, have found it unnecessary for me for my pure healers. Only my combat clerics have gotten much play out of it, but again could be my twitch casting and timing has been refined away from its use more than any reflection on it being a good feat or not.

I do also agree that being loaded with whatever supplies you can afford/carry is a good idea. I like 200 rez scrolls, 500 heal, 50 majorish mana pots, 200 mass cure mod, 100 restore, 6 sure serious wands (more to reminise about my clerics youth.) I jsut feel safe this way, but have the resources and am happy to burn plat to play the hero if in that bad pug.

[krud]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Gauntlets of Eternity from the Reaver as gear for a raid cleric. It has superior healing lore. Add some critical enhancements and it is a real boost when mass healing, ~1 in 5 or 6 cures will crit. That usually means at least one person is receiving a critted cure with each mass heal. No need to waste your tier III shroud ingredients on a superior lore item when the gauntlets are one of the easiest to farm raid items.

[Impaqt]

I'm surprised no one mentioned the Gauntlets of Eternity from the Reaver as gear for a raid cleric. It has superior healing lore. Add some critical enhancements and it is a real boost when mass healing, ~1 in 5 or 6 cures will crit. That usually means at least one person is receiving a critted cure with each mass heal. No need to waste your tier III shroud ingredients on a superior lore item when the gauntlets are one of the easiest to farm raid items.

THe gauntlets are nice.. But you cant count on crits. ANy cleric that thinks critical heals are going to save him or a party memeber from getting killed needs to rethink his build/playstyle.

Plus, Greater arcane lore covers Heals as well. Blue Dragon scale armor..... Greenblade.. SKiver.... even the elfcraft robe in a pich willprovide a better chance to crit those mass heals...

GLoves from VoD are much better... Especialy if your Rockin max and extend of course.

[SableShadow]

So the better a rogue is with traps the better

I don't feel competent to speak to the cleric portion, but this particular idea needs to be cut off at the knees. Once you've got enough trap skills to handle the traps you're dealing with, anything above that is junk that could be used for DPS, damage avoidance, or UMD.