Disappointed with the new Fighter Love

[Cold_Stele]

Having taken a look at the new Fighter love for mod 8 I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed with what we’ve been given.

Fighter’s Weapon Specialization adds +1 damage at lvl 8 to a specific weapon type (eg. Dwarven Axe) and a further +1 at level 16 for a total cost of 3 AP.

+2 damage total.

The new Fighter tactical feats which we were looking forward to would appear (from the Compendium) to be just one - Superior Weapon Focus, again in a specific weapon type.

+1 to hit, should you wish to burn a feat on it.

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Looking at these numbers, a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s, but even with the new enhancements a Ftr hits for 5 points less per swing, has HALF the number of crits (with axes) and is at –3 to tactical feats compared to a Barb.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.

[llevenbaxx]

Im thinking this is only part 1 of a 2 part plan. Id wait and see(lol where have I heard that before...) what mod 9 has to offer in addition before I get all dissappointed... but thats me.

[frugal_gourmet]

I was also hoping they would tweak things a bit to help emphasize unloved weapons. For instance, what fighter is going to follow the example and pick bastard sword?

[Memnir]

My fighter has done nothing but collect dust for the past six months, and it looks like he's only going to keep doing so. Or maybe be rerolled to something more relevant.

[Blazer]

Id wait and see...{snip}...what mod 9 has to offer in addition before I get all dissappointed... but thats me.

Sure, but since Mod 8 still isn't here yet, and it's taken this long to get to Mod 8, are you willing to wait another X months until Mod 9?

[llevenbaxx]

Sure, but since Mod 8 still isn't here yet, and it's taken this long to get to Mod 8, are you willing to wait another X months until Mod 9?

**put hands over ears repeating, "think positive, think positive...."**

No... do we have a choice?... No

[Laith]

Sure, but since Mod 8 still isn't here yet, and it's taken this long to get to Mod 8, are you willing to wait another X months until Mod 9?

whether you're willing to wait or not, you're not really in a position to make more things appear in mod8.

these mod8 fighter enhancements were completely unexpected. we were told long ago that the specialties and fighter/pally love are set for mod9. mod9 is supposedly due for jan/feb. be happy we got something in mod8.

or not. your call.

edit: with the delays, i'd consider january very unlikely.

[Cold_Stele]

Yes there's PrE's coming in Jan, but can you not understand how mind staggeringly overpowered they'd have to be to let Ftrs even begin to approach Barb/Rgr DPS?

I'm going to repeat myself here - before the new FWS enhancement they were at 7 points less per swing, half the number of crits (with axes) and at –3 with tactical feats compared to a Barb.

7 points less per swing!!! That's the equivalent (damage-wise) of a Barb starting with an 18 Str and the Ftr starting with a 4!!!

Even if the devs had gone crazy with the new enhancement (like they did with...nvm ) and added +7 damage then Ftrs would STILL do less DPS.

I honestly think 4 tiers of the new enhancement would have been about right - in no way overpowered and still way less DPS than Barbs and Rgrs.

2 points is just a lost opportunity to restore balance...

[gfunk]

I'm actually pretty pleased with the changes, and how it will affect my (pure) fighter. The toughness changes will help as I have a human fighter (will now achieve 500hp), and the +2 to damage will come in handy as well (nice add on to the weapon specialization / greater... for a +6 to damage in total). Still not as great of dps as the other classes, but my fighter is sort of a multi purpose anyway (intim / blocking / twf). This type of versatility is something that is difficult to fit into the other classes (due to the number of feats).

[llevenbaxx]

I see "DPS" and damage of this other guy, all over that last post Cold. I thought a fighters place was to master(or maybe just be good at) most if not all the different areas of combat. Aint that what all them feats is fer?

Working on a GTWF able intimitank with a side of tactics ftr atm. Tried to play a straight DPS fighter at level cap 12 and it just seemed dreadfully boring. The fighter class gives you the ability to do so much more and all you can think about is DPS.... forshame...

[EKKM]

Yes there's PrE's coming in Jan, but can you not understand how mind staggeringly overpowered they'd have to be to let Ftrs even begin to approach Barb/Rgr DPS?

I'm going to repeat myself here - before the new FWS enhancement they were at 7 points less per swing, half the number of crits (with axes) and at –3 with tactical feats compared to a Barb.

7 points less per swing!!! That's the equivalent (damage-wise) of a Barb starting with an 18 Str and the Ftr starting with a 4!!!

Even if the devs had gone crazy with the new enhancement (like they did with...nvm ) and added +7 damage then Ftrs would STILL do less DPS.

I honestly think 4 tiers of the new enhancement would have been about right - in no way overpowered and still way less DPS than Barbs and Rgrs.

2 points is just a lost opportunity to restore balance...

The four tiers of WS enhancment you refer to is what I had hoped for as well. On the plus side, at the cost of 1 AP it is really cheap.

I really hope that mod 9 gives us:

1- Good PrC enhanements like tempest, assassin etc (also, *** isnt tempest available for fighters anyway, thats how it is in PnP)

2- Reduce the AP cost of the armour mastery enhancments

3- More tactical feats as was promised

4- Improve the above WS enhancement.

[Tanka]

I see "DPS" and damage of this other guy, all over that last post Cold. I thought a fighters place was to master(or maybe just be good at) most if not all the different areas of combat. Aint that what all them feats is fer?

Working on a GTWF able intimitank with a side of tactics ftr atm. Tried to play a straight DPS fighter at level cap 12 and it just seemed dreadfully boring. The fighter class gives you the ability to do so much more and all you can think about is DPS.... forshame...

The thing is, a WF Barb with a Docent of Defiance can out-DPS us, out damage mitigate us, out Tactics us and maintain Intimidate aggro with minimal effort.

So what, exactly, are Fighters to do?

I won't even get into the so-called "Iron Monk" (which only takes one level of Monk, btw) that can do more damage, have far higher AC, Evasion, saves, and even play Intimitank with the right gear.

What else is there for Fighters, besides playing a mule?

[Cold_Stele]

The fighter class gives you the ability to do so much more and all you can think about is DPS.... forshame...

Well there are so many answers to that I don't know where to start

1. DPS - is there anything more important in this game? I know you must have been in Shroud - do you not agree it's all about pure DPS? Have you honestly never seen Shroud LFM's looking exclusively for Barbs and Rgrs only?

2. Ftr's have feats and versatility to do what else? Tactical Feats? Barbs do it better - you need to spend 6 AP per feat to get DC equal to a Barb.

3. So what else can a Ftr do? Best AC? Nope - even if you make extensive sacrifices, a Ranger/Monk will have better AC.

Sure, the one thing a Ftr can do better than anyone is spam Intimidate vs the Orthons in VOD. If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't be invited in there either

But to reiterate, I mention DPS because it's all that matters in 95% or more of the game's content. If you don't have the DPS you're a liability to the group.

And that's why you don't see Ftrs wanted in Shroud LFM's...

[llevenbaxx]

You seem to be of the opinion, if you arent the best, you dont count.

What does matter is that you can get good damage via feats/build, be an intimitank and have enough AC/hps for it. What does it matter that one class is better than me at tactics feats if almost every time the mob is still going to be stunned/tripped? It dont... Fighters are a combination of many good things, not one great thing.

Some classes just arent about being the best.

[Cold_Stele]

You seem to be of the opinion, if you arent the best, you dont count.

Please reread my post.

Everything I have stated is fact. Where possible I have provided numerical evidence.

Nothing in here is my opinion.

[smatt]

You seem to be of the opinion, if you arent the best, you dont count.

What does matter is that you can get good damage via feats/build, be an intimitank and have enough AC/hps for it. What does it matter that one class is better than me at tactics feats if almost every time the mob is still going to be stunned/tripped? It dont... Fighters are a combination of many good things, not one great thing.

Some classes just arent about being the best.

Hmm, well I think the point is.... That a 2 weapons fighting build can out AC or match the AC of a fully armored/shield holding tank, can out DPS (not per-swing, but has double the attacks) of a S/B. Sure;y a S/B build isn't wholly ineffective with the right build and the right play-style. Oh wait maybe a armored, shield holding tank has 1 advantage when shield blockign they get a little bit of DR, whoopitdy dippitdy do.But it's ridiculous that they can be out AC'd, out DPS'd, in such a way so easily. The entire progression of how this happened is amazing. I beat the system by being a general UMD build, that can survive and has enough of a mix of stat/DPS to hold up. Not great at anything but keeping myself and the whole party alive by rezzing/healing the dead clerics and casters. But it's a stretch to build and equip a toon in such a way.

[llevenbaxx]

Please reread my post.

.

Think you might want to reread mine Never disputed what you wrote, only an alternate line of thought.

[BlackSteel]

i'm not getting a 7 point difference when I add them up for identical races, dwarf barb vs dwarf fighter; the barb only does 3 more damage a swing with the addition of these two new enhancements, and this is only for THF, the difference for twf is less

whats really different is when you take a human fighter thf, thats 2 less than the dwarf fighter, and compare it to a wf barb which is 4 more than the dwarf barb.



was never stated that mod 8 was supposed to have lots of fighter love, only enhancements for weapon spec. If you take a tempest multiclass, the 10 fighter / 6 ranger is actually better off than the 10 barb / 6 ranger. Whether this stays true with a lvl cap raise depends completely upon how good the fighter prc's are.

[smatt]

Characters who use TWF should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Characters who fight with Two Weapons should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Character who fight with a Two Handed weapon should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.


Whoever thought it was a good idea to give out AC bonuses for a two wepon style OTHER than the 1 point feat is a artard.

Well not neccesarily all the time..... There is somethign to be said for Dex based builds and the ability to move freely. BUT the fact they can attain such high AC AND out DPS is the key. So what' sthe downside of such a build???? Every race/class has it's strong poitn and weak points, at least most do or should.

Easy and logical fix..... DR, static progressive DR for tangible armor wearers, not just shield blocking DR.

[Randolf_Drake]

Characters who use TWF should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Characters who fight with Two Weapons should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.

Repeat

Character who fight with a Two Handed weapon should NEVER have higher AC than those using a shield.


Whoever thought it was a good idea to give out AC bonuses for a two wepon style OTHER than the 1 point feat is a artard.