Disappointed with the new Fighter Love

[sephiroth1084]

Barb or Rgr with a Ftr 2 splash gets Ftr's Haste Boost too...



See, it's awfully easy to try to trivialize the issue when you say 'a couple of points of threat range'. Can I remind you we're talking about Crit Rage, the most overpowered enhancement to ever hit the game? That 'couple of points' equates to double the number of crits with axes. And it's the devs who've stated it's overpowered, not me.

So IMO 5 points (the equivalent of 10 Str) and double the crits doesn't seem like such a 'fair difference'. Especially as the Barb will also have better HP, saves and DR (and this is a THF scenario so neither will have AC).

And I also asked at what point does it become reasonable? When a fighter is doing 1 point of damage less than a barbarian? And, you discount Fighter Haste Boost II, III, IV, which add some decent burst.

I am not at all implying that fighters are even with barbarians, but you said that they SHOULDN'T deal as much damage as a barbarian, so where does that line fall? What is reasonable?

Again, seriously, have you never seen LFM's excluding Ftrs?

No.

[creithne]

oh further note... Superior Focus/Specialization are not "tactical" Feat

just saying

My thoughts exactly, when I heard "tactical" feats, I was thinking (as most folks, I would guess) maybe improved stunning blow or something that goes along with...I dunno...the fighter's TACTICS line of enhancements (IE trip, sunder, stunning blow, etc...)...

[Tanka]

No. They are considered magical beasts, reptiles, gnolls, or even humans.

After all, an Elemental can be banished; you wouldn't say it takes damage from outsider-bane, right?

Point. I always get confused by adding subtypes. Extraplanar != Outsider.

[Cold_Stele]

And I also asked at what point does it become reasonable? When a fighter is doing 1 point of damage less than a barbarian? And, you discount Fighter Haste Boost II, III, IV, which add some decent burst.

I am not at all implying that fighters are even with barbarians, but you said that they SHOULDN'T deal as much damage as a barbarian, so where does that line fall? What is reasonable?

Firstly - I'm not sure what your point is about FHB. Yes it's nice. So are WS, GWS, Ftr's Str, etc. Add em all together and you still get second rate DPS.

As for how close should Ftr DPS be to Barb? I'm not going to answer that, I'm going to let my friend the Player's Handbook do that

This is what max Ftr and Barb DPS would be in pnp with current gear, without Turbine's (self admittedly) overpowered enhancement system -

Dwarven Barb max str: 43 = +16 STR bonus attack/damage/trip
18 base
4 levels
6 item
3 tome
6 greater rage
4 madstone
2 rage potion

damage with max PA/axe enh and min II gaxe: 3d6+39
24 str (2 hander)
5 wep
10 PA

Dwarven Ftr max str: 37 = +13 STR bonus attack/damage/trip
18 base
4 level
6 item
3 tome
4 madstone
2 rage pot

damage: 3d6+ 38
19 str (2hander)
4 feat
5 wep
10 PA

So there's your answer - according to the PHB Barb should do one point more damage per swing and equal number of crits.

*I rushed these numbers before heading home so there could be errors*

[Aerendil]

^^ Well, that's just it. In PnP you were looking at *much* closer numbers between the various builds. Nobody was walking around with 30+ in their stats, or with a 100 AC, unless they were the avatar of a god. And even then, the avatars probably wouldn't have those stats
Nor were level 16 characters walking around with dual vorpals, dual banishers, dual banes, and some dual paralyzers. You were generally lucky to have *ONE* of those weapons.

So with an equipment list that allows such drastic inflation, and a PrE system that further improves on it, you reach a point where the miniscule differences between classes start expanding exponentially. Hence our current day scenerios.

At which point, you either nerf things down to what they should be, or elevate the other things to match the power of the unbalanced stuff.
And since nobody wants a nerf, the obvious answer is to just overpower the other classes to restore "balance".

But at what point does it get out of hand. Should Barbarians be running around with 40+ STR while raged?
Should Monks and Rangers be able to attain such a crazy AC as to make them virtually untouchable except on a natural 20?

It's all a bit crazy, if you ask me.

[Aranticus]

nvm

[Sue_Dark]

but there putting massivly underpowered prc in purple dragon knight good stuff unless theres a bard around so certaily there competence bonus would have to stack with bard or be totaly useless and a waste of points, defender heres one thats totaly defensive in fact one of the stipulations is that you have to stand perfectly still for defenders abilities(standing still in ddo usualy doesnt work), then we have kensai hmmm now if it were some kind weapons master kensai with widened criticals and extra crit multiplier with one type of weapon now that would work
obviously you dont make it stack with barb stuff and make it impossible to get the extre crit multiplier make it a lvl 14 restriction. you should just look forward to the steady increase in ranger love because turbines trackrecord so far is making ranger better every single mod

please someone prove me wrong tell me one mod where ranger didnt get a big dose of love

As another pointed out... until tempest, rangers were the hated class. Been playin em since beta, there was a very long painful time there where the only way to get a group was to start it yourself or to know someone inside.

Toughing out the ranger hate made the love that much more sweet.

[Boldrin]

Having taken a look at the new Fighter love for mod 8 I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed with what we’ve been given.

Fighter’s Weapon Specialization adds +1 damage at lvl 8 to a specific weapon type (eg. Dwarven Axe) and a further +1 at level 16 for a total cost of 3 AP.

+2 damage total.

The new Fighter tactical feats which we were looking forward to would appear (from the Compendium) to be just one - Superior Weapon Focus, again in a specific weapon type.

+1 to hit, should you wish to burn a feat on it.

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Looking at these numbers, a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s, but even with the new enhancements a Ftr hits for 5 points less per swing, has HALF the number of crits (with axes) and is at –3 to tactical feats compared to a Barb.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.

That barb also has a -10 ac my ftr can hit 60s( while TWF) with proper buffs and doesn't have to rely on rage. Fighters are fine, some people just don't know their role.

[Lehrman]

Looking at these numbers, a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

Fighter max str: 18+4+3+3+6 (base, lvls, tome, enhancement, item)=34 (+12)
Barb max Str: 18+4+3+6+10raged (Base, lvls, tome, item)=41 (42 if human) (+16) Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.

So at the moment fighter damage is +12, barb +16
Fighter Weapon spec +2damage, greater weapon spec +2= a total of +4 (the equivelent of +8str for damage purposes)Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.
This equalizes the fighter's damage v. the barbs. The gap in damage based on class is from two things:
1.) Barbs get crit rage and fighters do not have the same.
2.) Barbs can take the power attack enhncement line to give up a point of hitroll for +1 damage (+2 if dual wielding) (-3, +3 or -3,+6 capped.)

The other difference is hitroll. Even with weapon focus/greater weapon focus, the difference between barb and fighter hitroll (pre-enhancement) would be -2. This is to say that the fighter has 2 less hitroll than the barb. After enhancements, the fighter will have 1 more hitroll than the barb (barbarian power attack line), but 3-6 fewer damage. With the new enhancements a lvl 16 fighter would still have 1 more hitroll, but only 2 less damage. The main difference on a damage chart is primarily the result of Crit Rage.

[Cold_Stele]

The gap in damage based on class is from two things:
1.) Barbs get crit rage and fighters do not have the same.
2.) Barbs can take the power attack enhncement line to give up a point of hitroll for +1 damage (+2 if dual wielding) (-3, +3 or -3,+6 capped.)

That's exactly the point I'm making - Barbs and Ftrs were balanced when designed. The enhancement system has made them grossly unbalanced.

Like Madmatt says, anyone who thinks otherwise has to be playing a different game.

Which brings me to...

That barb also has a -10 ac my ftr can hit 60s( while TWF) with proper buffs and doesn't have to rely on rage. Fighters are fine, some people just don't know their role.

OK, I'm gonna play and put aside for the minute that the Barb's answer to that AC is more HP, DR, DR boost, Improved Uncanny Dodge and MUCH better saves.

Why don't you post some numbers and let us decide if you're build's fine or not? Whilst you're at it you can explain what a Ftr's role is.

I've already asked this guy to put his money where his mouth is and post some numbers -

Build a better toon maybe? I don't know. My fighter does a great dose of DPS and can almost match barbarian single hit DPS.

Hopefully you're going to have the courage to back what you're saying unlike the last guy...

[noinfo]

There is absolutly no doubt that fighters are the weakest of the melee class.

There is no way a character wearing a robe and wielding 2 weapons should have a higher AC than a fighter fully speced out wearing armor and shield.

Fighter has become a splash class, because the devs have made this game into a DPS machine and if you dont have it you dont contribute.

I do have faith though, for the longest time rangers were the weakest link, now they are the most powerful, maybe one day when the dev's pull their heads out fighters will become what they should be.

The problem lies with the way dnd and ddo work armour. Ac is a combination of how people avoiding damage and armour preventing damage, its a very simplistic system. Do you honestly think that your armoured up tank with shield should be harder to hit than an incredibly agile elf/halfling with their 34 odd dex and the insight gained from their wisdom if they splash? Sorry to me the creatures we face at higher levels are powerful enough to cut through that armour and probably should have a harder time hiting the more agile, high dex/wis. Also who is more likely able to take the hit? The elf who has maxed out dex and wis? or the Dwarf (sorry for stereo typing here) who has massive hp and high strength for dps as well?

My biggest issue is that both characters are damaged the same when hit. If you want to balance it more, then I think passive stacking dr is the way to go for the heavy armoured shield wearers.

[dageth]

Fighter max str: 18+4+3+3+6 (base, lvls, tome, enhancement, item)=34 (+12)
Barb max Str: 18+4+3+6+10raged (Base, lvls, tome, item)=41 (42 if human) (+16) Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.

So at the moment fighter damage is +12, barb +16
Fighter Weapon spec +2damage, greater weapon spec +2= a total of +4 (the equivelent of +8str for damage purposes)Omitting rage pots, madtone etc.
This equalizes the fighter's damage v. the barbs. The gap in damage based on class is from two things:
1.) Barbs get crit rage and fighters do not have the same.
2.) Barbs can take the power attack enhncement line to give up a point of hitroll for +1 damage (+2 if dual wielding) (-3, +3 or -3,+6 capped.)

The other difference is hitroll. Even with weapon focus/greater weapon focus, the difference between barb and fighter hitroll (pre-enhancement) would be -2. This is to say that the fighter has 2 less hitroll than the barb. After enhancements, the fighter will have 1 more hitroll than the barb (barbarian power attack line), but 3-6 fewer damage. With the new enhancements a lvl 16 fighter would still have 1 more hitroll, but only 2 less damage. The main difference on a damage chart is primarily the result of Crit Rage.

Well said.

[eyepuppy]

Lol, here are the numbers for identically equipped THF Barb at current cap compared to Ftr -

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=588

I'd love to hear what feats and enhancements you've discovered that gives you an advantage over the Barb PA and Crit Rage combo.

Put your money where your mouth is, post some actual numbers, or move along...

Sorry for being unclear. I was meaning that I can almost match Barbarian DPS. They still win, but I do quite a bit of damage.

Damage breakdown (doing it fast so I can get back to the game. Might miss something).

Fighter:
----------------
1d12+48
----------------
22 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot)
10 PA
1 prayer
3 favored enemy
4 weapon spec
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements
1 new weapon spec enhancement

Then slap on bard songs and a bloodstone for mroe damage.

BARB:
----------------
1d12+48+51
----------------
27 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot, 1 full barb rage)
16 PA
1 prayer
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements


and a barbarian can't keep prayer on him between fights, so that shouldn't even be on there really. So It's 3 higher. So I can match a barbarian DPS up until the crits. Crits are what bring them higher, but the new mod will have undead bosses for the raid. So there you go.

[maddmatt70]

Sorry for being unclear. I was meaning that I can almost match Barbarian DPS. They still win, but I do quite a bit of damage.

Damage breakdown (doing it fast so I can get back to the game. Might miss something).

Fighter:
----------------
1d12+48
----------------
22 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot)
10 PA
1 prayer
3 favored enemy
4 weapon spec
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements
1 new weapon spec enhancement

Then slap on bard songs and a bloodstone for mroe damage.

BARB:
----------------
1d12+48+51
----------------
27 STR (2 madstone, 1 pot, 1 full barb rage)
16 PA
1 prayer
5 weapon
2 axe enhancements


and a barbarian can't keep prayer on him between fights, so that shouldn't even be on there really. So It's 3 higher. So I can match a barbarian DPS up until the crits. Crits are what bring them higher, but the new mod will have undead bosses for the raid. So there you go.

Lol. So a barb cant also splash a ranger level for 3 favored enemy. A barb without crits still does 6 more damage and with crits does quite a bit more according to your figures assuming both get favored enemy and splash a ranger level.

[Torilin]

The problem lies with the way dnd and ddo work armour. Ac is a combination of how people avoiding damage and armour preventing damage, its a very simplistic system. Do you honestly think that your armoured up tank with shield should be harder to hit than an incredibly agile elf/halfling with their 34 odd dex and the insight gained from their wisdom if they splash? Sorry to me the creatures we face at higher levels are powerful enough to cut through that armour and probably should have a harder time hiting the more agile, high dex/wis. Also who is more likely able to take the hit? The elf who has maxed out dex and wis? or the Dwarf (sorry for stereo typing here) who has massive hp and high strength for dps as well?

My biggest issue is that both characters are damaged the same when hit. If you want to balance it more, then I think passive stacking dr is the way to go for the heavy armoured shield wearers.

I dont disagree with what you say, but in DnD and DDO to get hit means you have taken dmg, armor should mean that it is harder to dmg said character. So to your point there should be a system that allows fully armored characters to take less dmg, hence either higher ac's or like you said some sort of stacking dr system.

[eyepuppy]

Lol. So a barb cant also splash a ranger level for 3 favored enemy. A barb without crits still does 6 more damage and with crits does quite a bit more according to your figures assuming both get favored enemy and splash a ranger level.

splash out of barb and you'll lose enhancements though.

[Tanka]

splash out of barb and you'll lose enhancements though.

At the moment, no, you won't. Crit Rage 2 is Barb14, not Barb16.

[eyepuppy]

At the moment, no, you won't. Crit Rage 2 is Barb14, not Barb16.

What about end game? You'll lose mighty rage and 1 rage per day.

That's the problem with people today, you never think ahead Then there will be all the unsplashed build enhancements. Probably some level 20 barb enhancement that will increase crit damage somehow.

[Tanka]

What about end game? You'll lose mighty rage and 1 rage per day.

That's the problem with people today, you never think ahead Then there will be all the unsplashed build enhancements. Probably some level 20 barb enhancement that will increase crit damage somehow.

OHNOES! -2 Str/Con! What am I ever to do?

No fatigue? Oh my goodness! Why, they only make Lesser Restore potions available to all!

The 14 Barb/6 Ranger (Tempest) is the build to look for. By not having the extra 2 Str/Con, they gain FE damage against two FEs. Gee, look, that paltry Mighty Rage is looking pretty pathetic now, isn't it?

[dominp]

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Balance? why do they have to be balanced?

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s,

Um yeah you pretty much are.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.

so they are not as uber as you want...that must mean there is absolutely no reason at all to ever play a fighter again.