Disappointed with the new Fighter Love

[Angelus_dead]

due to some heavy hinting about items that grant tempest's haste boost but don't stack with tempest, that's up in the air.

No, there was not "heavy" hinting. That was almost all long-range inference from the players.

It's a big leap from seeing that Tempest is "currently" untyped to deciding that's an announcement Tempest will be replaceable with items.

[gfunk]

BUT SERIOUSLY - why are we debating this? Is there ONE PERSON who doesn't think Ftrs are underpowered compared to Barbs and Rgrs???

well sure they do less dps..I'm pretty sure everyone agrees on that point. However, They still do good dps when equiped with decent weaponry (i dont think many people would complain about the twf fighter that has a lightning strike and a mineral II in their hands.. even if they don't match the barb, they will still do some very nice dps. Also, they have top notch burst dps when they turn on fighter hasteboost (not included in your calculations).

While the 20 seconds might not seem significant to some, I find that 5, 20 second boosts will last me most of the way through (for example):
a) the average 2 to 3 rounder in part 4 of shroud
b) approximately half of the beat down of Harry in part 5
c) the solo beat down of 1 lieutentant in part 2 (or more than enough to contribute some nice dps on the wall or deliver fast vorpals in the initial clean up phase)
d) a number of the tougher encounters on route to hound or visions
e) a few of the devil rounds in visions(nice for fast vorpaling), several of the renders in hound.

By playing careful, my fighter usually keeps up very well with the barbarians or rangers (at least on kill tally ** excluding w/p rapier wielding types).

That together with utilizing some intimidating and good blocking dr at the appropriate places makes me feel like I'm contributing to the party's wellfare.

[Turial]

Originally Posted by Turial
Overall the new fighter enhancements make a two weapon fighter relatively on par with a similar ranger (using rams might) vs non-favored mobs.

+1 to-hit for weapon focus feat
+2 damage for weapon specialization feat
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 8 enhancement
+1 damage for weapon specialization level 16 enhancement
+1 to-hit for greater weapon focus feat
+2 damage for greater weapon specialization feat
+1 damage for greater weapon specialization level 17 enhancement
+1 damage for greater weapon specialization level 18 enhancement
+1 to-hit for superior weapon focus feat
+2 damage for superior weapon specialization feat



Total: +3 to-hit and +10 damage Fighter Permanent. Getting close to what fighters deserve for their devotion to a specific weapon.
Total: +1 to-hit and +4 damage Ranger Dispellable buff.

the way i see it sounds like superior focus might lead to superior specialization, so total from feats would be +6, then add another +2 from enhancements +4 for axe if your a dwarf. Thats a total of +8-+10 to each hand dual weilding that would be pretty darn close to fe damage for rangers...barbs offhand damage stinks getting barb pa maxed and using a offhand weapon isnt that great all your str is .5 so in the end a dwarf dual wielder would get better off hand damage per regular hit. so im thinking superior focus is pretty good sign there will be superior specialization and if theres that thers probably a third wpn spec enhancment coming

Hopeful future feats and enhancements.

Side note: I am not really dissapointed in the fighter improvements but I am not impressed by it either. Fighters deserve something impressive.

[sephiroth1084]

Having taken a look at the new Fighter love for mod 8 I have to say I’m more than a little disappointed with what we’ve been given.

Fighter’s Weapon Specialization adds +1 damage at lvl 8 to a specific weapon type (eg. Dwarven Axe) and a further +1 at level 16 for a total cost of 3 AP.

+2 damage total.

The new Fighter tactical feats which we were looking forward to would appear (from the Compendium) to be just one - Superior Weapon Focus, again in a specific weapon type.

+1 to hit, should you wish to burn a feat on it.

That extra +2 damage is way too little to balance the melee classes and, to be honest, a slap in the face for us poor Ftrs who were promised so much.

Looking at these numbers, a maxed Dwarven Barb with a Mineral II GreatAxe does 3d6+50 per swing and crits on 17-20. A maxed Dwarven Ftr (with the new enhancement) does 3d6+45 and crits on 19-20.

I am NOT saying that a Ftr’s DPS has to equal a Barb’s or a Rgr’s, but even with the new enhancements a Ftr hits for 5 points less per swing, has HALF the number of crits (with axes) and is at –3 to tactical feats compared to a Barb.

I appreciate that Fighter PrE’s are forthcoming in mod 9 but they would have to be grossly overpowered to even come close to Rangers, Barbs or even Pallies now it would seem.

If you aren't saying they should be equal, how close should they be before they are more or less equal? 5 damage and a couple of points to the threat range seems a fair difference between the 2. Especially since if the barbarian isn't maxed, the fighter likely is almost the same damage-wise. Then a fighter can get a hefty Haste boost a few times per rest for big burst damage.

And vs. paladins, a fighter does +6 damage/hit on every hit (just looking at the Weapon Focus/Spec line) at the cost of 4 feats (of which they have MANY), and 2 enhancements, while a paladin has to dump a lot of points into Cha at creation to get +2/4/6/8 damage with an additional cost of 10 AP (and dropping other scores). And these will be good for short bursts, maybe over a whole quest, but there will be times where the paladin has used a few Divine Righteousness or runs out mid-combat and doesn't bring it back up immediately.

Paladins get some decent burst damage, but it requires a lot of concentration and but-clicking to get it working, and a fairly significant investiture of AP, while fighters have more consistent DPS at the cost of a fairly abundant resource for them (feats). Besides, fighters get the Str+ enhancements, and the Haste boost, which also ups their DPS (both vs. paladins and barbarians).

[Laith]

Don't we already have a 10% alacrity item in the game? I know it as Jorgundal's Collar but you may know it by such terms as vendor trash, bank junk or AH garbage

Alacrity items are all Enhancement Bonus currently. They don't stack with the haste spell, or other alacrity items.

"character sheet bonuses stack with items or spells, items/spells don't stack with items/spells" is the general rule.

There are few exceptions. Most telling in this case is monk wind stance (currently Enhancement/Insight). It would seem quite likely that Monks won't be the only ones to not have 100% stacking forms of attack speed.

No, there was not "heavy" hinting. That was almost all long-range inference from the players.

It's a big leap from seeing that Tempest is "currently" untyped to deciding that's an announcement Tempest will be replaceable with items.

personally, i'll leave it you all to consider the meaning of the quote. Sure, it could just be a correction, but they usually leave that sort of thing for someone like you, A_D.

I will agree that the typing of tempest doesn't necessarily mean items. it could be Insight (upsetting monk/rangers). Unlikely Sacred (upsetting pally/rangers). Likely [partially] Enhancement (making it like wind stance).

If it was just housekeeping (ie "we're making Sacred, so let's just go ahead and type Tempest"), he might have said that instead of saying that the typing of tempest was to intentionally make it not stack with something.

[Laith]

double post

[Murderface]

If you're going to be accurate you can't use different races when comparing - you have to assume both are Dwarves with Dorf Axe Damage otherwise those numbers are meaningless. Also it's not just the damage per swing that makes Rgrs so great it's the permanent 10% haste boost.

I haven't crunched TWF numbers yet but guess I could. Adding SWS in the THF scenario would still equal 3 points less per swing and HALF the number of crits compared to Barbs though.

Sure it's closing the gap but it's still a long way behind.

even if your not a dwarf its still +8 to offhand and then .5 damage from str and barb in the best scenarior beats fighter str by 6-8 str 48 at best thats a +18 damage but only +9 in the offhand compared to fighter if everything goes right and we get sup wpn spec in the future and a third enhancment for a non dwarf thats a +9 to offhand then take your str which should be about 42 at lvl 20 madstoned and all that good stuff thats a +8 damage in the offhand

so fighter offhand damage could be +17 instead of what barbs is now which is +9 :P rangers right now have a what is it +15 fe damage int he offhand and of course there .5 str damage so at least it would be closer

and then if they put in a weapons master sort of kensai and have it give extra widened crit at 14 ftr and crit multiplier at 18 ftr then you got a guy on par with a ranger

[Capstern]

Well they didn't nerf Tempest, despite the huge waves of panic that they had.

That's a whole lotta love right there

Which hopefully they will do at some point - to bring it in line even if its to type part of tempest haste as non stackable with regualr haste

[Cold_Stele]

Also, they have top notch burst dps when they turn on fighter hasteboost (not included in your calculations).

Barb or Rgr with a Ftr 2 splash gets Ftr's Haste Boost too...

If you aren't saying they should be equal, how close should they be before they are more or less equal? 5 damage and a couple of points to the threat range seems a fair difference between the 2.

See, it's awfully easy to try to trivialize the issue when you say 'a couple of points of threat range'. Can I remind you we're talking about Crit Rage, the most overpowered enhancement to ever hit the game? That 'couple of points' equates to double the number of crits with axes. And it's the devs who've stated it's overpowered, not me.

So IMO 5 points (the equivalent of 10 Str) and double the crits doesn't seem like such a 'fair difference'. Especially as the Barb will also have better HP, saves and DR (and this is a THF scenario so neither will have AC).

Again, seriously, have you never seen LFM's excluding Ftrs? I assure the rest of theDDO community is aware there's a problem with Ftrs (and the devs too or we wouldn't be getting the new stuff).

Especially since if the barbarian isn't maxed, the fighter likely is almost the same damage-wise.

Hmmm, unless we compare two identically equipped builds we could say anything we wanted here to justify our arguments.

[eyepuppy]

Well there are so many answers to that I don't know where to start

1. DPS - is there anything more important in this game? I know you must have been in Shroud - do you not agree it's all about pure DPS? Have you honestly never seen Shroud LFM's looking exclusively for Barbs and Rgrs only?

2. Ftr's have feats and versatility to do what else? Tactical Feats? Barbs do it better - you need to spend 6 AP per feat to get DC equal to a Barb.

3. So what else can a Ftr do? Best AC? Nope - even if you make extensive sacrifices, a Ranger/Monk will have better AC.

Sure, the one thing a Ftr can do better than anyone is spam Intimidate vs the Orthons in VOD. If I couldn't do that, I wouldn't be invited in there either

But to reiterate, I mention DPS because it's all that matters in 95% or more of the game's content. If you don't have the DPS you're a liability to the group.

And that's why you don't see Ftrs wanted in Shroud LFM's...

Build a better toon maybe? I don't know. My fighter does a great dose of DPS and can almost match barbarian single hit DPS.

[Elaril]

It's official...the devs hate fighters. 8 and 16????? Remind me, what levels do barbs pick up crit rage 1 and 2.

[Cold_Stele]

Build a better toon maybe? I don't know. My fighter does a great dose of DPS and can almost match barbarian single hit DPS.

Lol, here are the numbers for identically equipped THF Barb at current cap compared to Ftr -

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=588

I'd love to hear what feats and enhancements you've discovered that gives you an advantage over the Barb PA and Crit Rage combo.

Put your money where your mouth is, post some actual numbers, or move along...

[maddmatt70]

All I know is if the fighters would have complained like the paladins did after mod 6 came into existence when rangers and barbarians were both superior because of tempest and crit rage 2 fighters wouldn't be in this situation.

Instead of just +1 damage the weapon specialization enhancments would have been higher like divine might. I have no idea why the weapon specialization enhancements weren't like divine might's = to +6 or +8. I mean since they are adding something why not make it worthwhile.

If the fighters in ddo would have complained like the pallys in ddo this wouldn't have happened I can almost guarantee it.

[maddmatt70]

To the people actually trying to make arguments that fighters dps isnt the least of any melee class what game are you playing.

[Aesop]

I'm a little disappointed in the WP Spec Enhancements.. Barbs get Crit Rage 2 at 14 and Fighters have to wait til level 16 to get WP Spec 2? and its for 1 weapon type only. Little bit more needs to be there. Heck the Racial ones at least apply to 2 (usually in some cases more ... Dwarf I'm looking at you)

I have said before that making Critical Accuracy a form of Stacking Seeker would be a welcome change. Even if it only gave a max of +4

THe fact that A raged Barbarian is a superior tactical fighter than a Fighter is a big silly thing. Make those +2 to DCs instead of +1.

Fighter Armor and shield masteries?... I think I address that below... Anyway these were a few other things I've written up recently... like over the last month or two.

the big thing for Fighter Love



MORE FEAT ARE NEEDED

Combat Form Feat: The First is Focus and it is a Prereq for all the rest. This would essentially be like Manyshot is set up now where you'd have 1-1.5 min of Combat Focus and then a 2-3 min cooldown. As you buy up the Feat all bought become part of the Focus...

Combat Focus
Requires a Wisdom score of 13
This Feat grants a limited duration (10 rounds +1/Combat Form Feat) Combat Focus. This Grants a +2 to Will Saves. If you have 3 or more Combat Form Feat the bonus increases to 4. Combat Focus is also the Prerequisite for other Combat Form Feats. Those Feat improve the benefits of the Combat Focus.

Combat Stability
Requires BAB+3 Combat Focus
Grants a +4 to resist Bull Rush Trip etc (Increase to +8 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Defense
Requires BAB +6 Dodge and Combat Focus
Allows you to Switch your Dodge Target as an Immediate action (increase Dodge bonus by +1 with 3+ Combat Form Feats)
Modify for DDO to Grant an Additional +1 Dodge AC and +2 with 3+ Combat Form Feat

Combat Vigor
Requires BAB +9 Combat Focus
Gain Fast Healing 2 while Focused (4 with 3+ Combat Form Feat)

Combat Awareness
Requires BAB+12 Combat Focus and Blind Fighting
Gain Knowledge of the Health of Adjacent Creatures (3+ Combat Form Feat grant Blindsight 5')
I don’t know… Someone else think of something for this one

Combat Strike
Requires BAB +15 Combat Focus 2 other Combat Form Feat
Grants the ability to expend your Focus to gain a bonus to attack and damage = to number of Combat Form Feats for the current turn
Modify to just grant a Bonus to Damage (maybe +2) while in Combat Focus


Shield Combat Suggestions

Alchemical Rituals
Have the bonuses be based on Shield or Armor type. I'm for a +1 apply to Light Armor, Cloth Armor, Bucklers and Light Shields, and a +2 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields.

I also suggest a second tier of Alchemical Rituals that require a Shield Previously Enchanted by the first tier ritual that applies the same bonus and a Blocking DR or Deflection Bonus.

Example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking: Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 2 for Bucklers and Light Shields and by 4 for Heavy and Tower Shields

Additionally there is a Feat in the Players Handbook 2 called

Shield Specialization
Grants +1 AC when using Shields (and is a prerequisite for other Feat)(could also allow it to increase the Max Dex Bonus from Tower Shields)
Another option here is to have this apply a multiple tiered effect as well and have it cover a few different ideas at the same time.

Example:
Shield Specialization
This Feat grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. This Feat also increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1 and increases the DR while blocking with a shield by 5.

I’d have this feat replace the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats.
Another thing to consider is the Armor Mastery Enhancements. I think a slight change here would be better for fighters. Make the Armor Mastery Line only 2 tiers and create a Separate line called Armor Optimization that instead of increasing the Max Dex Bonus increases the Armor Bonus.

Fighter Armor Optimization I
2AP
+1 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)
Fighter Armor Optimization II
4AP
+2 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)


Fighter Armor Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus

Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus


Fighter Shield Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+2 Blocking DR any Shield

Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+4 Blocking DR with any Shield





Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor
I think that armors that have a natural DR/- should stack with this ie: Adamantine Full Plate would become DR5/-
This may not sound like a lot of DR but over the course of a quest could add up significantly. But perhaps this one is too weak and a little more is needed as well, in that case I wrote up a second suggestion below

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
This Feat Increases the Maximum Dexterity Bonus that may be applied to a given set of Armor by 1 and Increases the Armor’s natural DR by 2-4 points; 2 for Light Armor, 3 for Medium Armor and 4 for Heavy Armor. Thus a chain Shirt with no natural DR while worn by someone with this Feat would have a DR of 2/- while the same character wearing a set of Adamantine Full Plate (DR3/-) would have a DR of 7/-



A thought that passed around was applying a new incentive to shield users… This could be difficult but I think it would also be a good way to balance things out. Apply a “Miss Chance” based on Shield bonus to AC. Actually instead of a Miss Chance so much a chance to absorb some of the blow. Basically if a attacker scores a hit against the Shielded character a percent chance is rolled to see if the defender takes the shot on the shield and absorbs some of the damage. He is still hit so any of the non physical damage goes through but if the shield takes the brunt of the force the damage would be reduced by the defenders blocking DR.
I’d suggest making the chance relative to the shield bonus and give Tower Shields a Bonus for Cover and Bucklers a penalty. I think the base deflection bonus should be 2% per point of Shield AC with the buckler counting as 1 lower and Tower Shields as 2 higher.

so a +5 Buckler is 10%
and a +5 Tower Shield 22%

Now combine that with a few of the other ideas put forward in this post like the Alchemical Ritual modification and Shield Specialization Feat and a +5 Alchemically Treated Buckler comes out as 14% and the Tower Shield as 30%
A top tier maxed out(+5 Ritual and Feat) Heavy Shield would yield 22%... not too bad considering. No real need for the Paladin to get the Tower Shield Feat unless he really feels he needs to for his build.
Now add on to that the following two Feat that I heavily modified from the Players Handbook and I think we have a strong potential

Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Well we don't have AoO in DDO so something different and I think this lends itself well to be an additional 1% per Shield Bonus to Shield Deflection. So that top tiered Alchemically Enhanced Tower Shield goes from 30% Deflection rate to 45% and the Heavy Shield from 22% to 33%.


Shield Ward
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the shields AC bonus to touch AC, and a bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, Disarm and Grapple

Now we don't have Touch Attacks in DDO... but we have Rays that we have little defense against. I think having this apply the Deflection rate against Rays would be a way to make this a highly desirable ability.



Now damage mitigation isn't the only issue with S&B fighting ... we also have a low damage which doesn't make the style very well liked.

A suggestion I made was giving S&B Passive Shield Bash sort of like the THF glancing blows and to improve the Feat Improved Shield Bash to improve that function. I'd say these Shield Bashes wouldn't be AOE like glancing blow but instead would apply to the target being attacked and would apply more direct damage.

Aesop

[Aesop]

oh further note... Superior Focus/Specialization are not "tactical" Feat

just saying

[Tin_Dragon]

**put hands over ears repeating, "think positive, think positive...."**

No... do we have a choice?... No

We should hold Kate hostage, she did say New Years for Mod 9

[Torilin]

There is absolutly no doubt that fighters are the weakest of the melee class.

There is no way a character wearing a robe and wielding 2 weapons should have a higher AC than a fighter fully speced out wearing armor and shield.

Fighter has become a splash class, because the devs have made this game into a DPS machine and if you dont have it you dont contribute.

I do have faith though, for the longest time rangers were the weakest link, now they are the most powerful, maybe one day when the dev's pull their heads out fighters will become what they should be.

[Tanka]

Um, you're kind of forgetting the permanent 10% haste boost or the fact that not much stuff end game isn't a favored enemy.

My Rgr has Evil Outsiders, Constructs, Elementals and Aberrations, which is everything but what Gnolls, Trogs and the odd Troll end game right? Everything else he just uses stat damage anyway...

Any of the Fiend-Blood enemies are also considered Outsiders (since they can be banished), so that increases the number of FEs in the Vale quests.

Barb or Rgr with a Ftr 2 splash gets Ftr's Haste Boost too...

Ftr 1 splash, actually. Same with one level of Rogue, plus full access to OL/DD/UMD and still gain access to Intimidate (or, if you're feeling wily, Bluff or Diplomacy).

[Angelus_dead]

Any of the Fiend-Blood enemies are also considered Outsiders (since they can be banished), so that increases the number of FEs in the Vale quests.

No. They are considered magical beasts, reptiles, gnolls, or even humans.

After all, an Elemental can be banished; you wouldn't say it takes damage from outsider-bane, right?