Suggestions welcome DPS 14pali/2 monk - looking for finishing touches.

[Nick_RC]

I like DPS. The monk splash builds are great for ridiculous AC but throw in kitchen sink raid buffs and it gets to a point of diminishing returns. Power attack is where its at for me.

Going over an idea for a high dps, AC pretty much everything toon. Im struggling to find a weakpoint in this gal... Lets go for intial 14 Pali 2 monk. I dont wanna splash more than 2 levels of another class as word on the street is the lvl 18 Pali PrC's are gonna be pretty tight.

Disclaimer 1 - +2 tomes raid loot etc - its all a grind now. All the people that are gonna jump in and say 'why do people include all the grind loot' save ur breath i really dont care. With lack of content and mod 8 catering to lowbies...*sigh* what else is there to do.

DIsclaimer 2 - Wrote this up in a hurry this morning some numbers may be out. Il remedy later.

Human 14 Pali 2 Monk

16 Str + 4 lvls + 6 item + 2 tome = 28
15 Dex +2 tome +6 item + 3 Exc(shroudL2) = 26
11 con +2 tome +6 item +1 human = 20
9 Int + 1 tome at lvl 1 (+4 for CE option eventually...)
12 Wis +1 monk +1 Human + 2 tome +6 item = 22
14 Cha + 2 Pali +2 tome + 6 item = 24 (*edit changed from 15 to 14 - +4 tomes dropping in mod 9)

Feats

2WF
I2WF
G2WF
Icrit (maybe free up a feat with min2..oversize?)
2wd
Khopesh(human)
Extend
Dodge(monk)
PA(monk)
Toughness (minos)

AC

10 Base
8 AC Bracers
4 Pali Aura
3 Nat (Pot)
1 Dodge
1 2wd
4 dodge icy
5 prot
4 insight
4 shield
6 wisdom
8 dex
3 chattering
1 Haste
1 Armour ritual

63 self

+4 heroics
+2 recit
+2 bark

=71 Kitchen sink

Hit points

20 Base
10 AoA
30 GFL
140 Pali
16 Monk
18 Toughness
30 Human toughness
5 monk tortoise
64 con
45 HP craft
40 Pali

448

Saves (lost track but its at least this)

Fort - 31
Ref - 32
Will - 29

Skills (some mix of the following... will add in breakdown later)

Balance
Umd
Jump
Tumble

Ok. Am i missing something? This gal will be a smiting dps Pali. Twin lightning 2's for flavor. Possibly twin min 2s just so i can lose impr crit and maybe fit in oversize or pierce or something.


Alot tend to go for the CE route but im more in favour of dps. As i said Ac gets to a point of diminshing returns...im shooting for B+s/A's in most categories to make an A+ toon. With a base int of 10 i have the opportunity for CE if i think its gonna be useful at some sageGreat dps via might/zeal/smites - good ac, evasion, saves. Im thinking i might be quite tight on the enhancement points and havnt gone through to check them - just wanted to work on the premise and hopefully gathered knowledge of the community before i roll this gal.

By rolling with PA it means i can keep shield clickes up the whole time without worrying about CE turning off.

EDIT: removed intimitanking thoughts.

Thoughts tips suggestions? Im sure im missing something...or alot of things cos it just doesnt seem right...

And yeah i know alot of my ac can be debuffed..but twin weakening of enfeebling scimys with a hot swap too lightning 2's + chain smites = dead beholder hehe.

I am looking for suggestions as to possible changes. Would appreciate the feedback

Cheers

N

[maddmatt70]

Looks good. My build is very similar lowish con, just enough dex, but good str and cha. 14 pally/2 monk as well.

Edit: I did go with 12 con, but plan to be in monk wind stance a fair amount maybe all the time at some point in the future, but that is another story otherwise I would have gone with 10 con.

[krud]

ANd yeah i know alot of my ac can be debuffed..but twin weakening of enfeebling scimys with a hot swap too lightning 2's + chain smites = dead beholder hehe.

I used to wonder why people cared so much about beholder AC, when they really don't hit hard at all, but the trend now is to use beholders as roaming "radar jamming" devices, mixed in among some harder hitting mobs.

As far as the build, you're skimping on con because you might someday want CE? I think your AC is good enough without it, might as well make it a dump stat and bump up con. I have 2 monk on my pali and really like having evasion. It's the difference between no damage and half damage countless times. If you are going to make him a dps pali, then don't spend the effort worrying about being a half-baked intimitank on the side, with a fighter level and some future tower shield prereq. Stick to the main goal and you should be ok with 14pal/2monk.

[maddmatt70]

I used to wonder why people cared so much about beholder AC, when they really don't hit hard at all, but the trend now is to use beholders as roaming "radar jamming" devices, mixed in among some harder hitting mobs.

As far as the build, you're skimping on con because you might someday want CE? I think your AC is good enough without it, might as well make it a dump stat and bump up con. I have 2 monk on my pali and really like having evasion. It's the difference between no damage and half damage countless times. If you are going to make him a dps pali, then don't spend the effort worrying about being a half-baked intimitank on the side, with a fighter level and some future tower shield prereq. Stick to the main goal and you should be ok with 14pal/2monk.

Edit:misread his thread whoops.

[Nick_RC]

I used to wonder why people cared so much about beholder AC, when they really don't hit hard at all, but the trend now is to use beholders as roaming "radar jamming" devices, mixed in among some harder hitting mobs.

As far as the build, you're skimping on con because you might someday want CE? I think your AC is good enough without it, might as well make it a dump stat and bump up con. I have 2 monk on my pali and really like having evasion. It's the difference between no damage and half damage countless times. If you are going to make him a dps pali, then don't spend the effort worrying about being a half-baked intimitank on the side, with a fighter level and some future tower shield prereq. Stick to the main goal and you should be ok with 14pal/2monk.

They were my thoughts too... it was an option but it was 95% likeliness would be the 2 lvls of monk.

I would just love to have intimidate... and the point allocation - its two points for a 10 int... or 16hp - and the bump to fort save is negligible. i think the option to maybe fit in CE + an extra skill point a level is worth 16hp. I likely wont be able to fit in intimidate...man i wish it was a pali class skill. Cheers for your thoughts.

N

[Nick_RC]

Looks good. My build is very similar lowish con, just enough dex, but good str and cha. 14 pally/2 monk as well.

Edit: I did go with 12 con, but plan to be in monk wind stance a fair amount maybe all the time at some point in the future, but that is another story otherwise I would have gone with 10 con.

Ur using kamas????

[Aerendil]

Keep in mind you can wait a mod or 2 and make an Elf Paladin/Monk build using longswords and stay centered (would cost a feat, however).

Just something to chew on.

Reasonable build though, if a tad end-game equipment intensive.

[maddmatt70]

Ur using kamas????

Well for when I vorpal or the like I will. Well I have long term hopes that they will add the feat in the compendium that allows longswords to be used as a monk weapon. Eladrin made it clear that there is no guarantee that the feat will happen and the devs are working on it, it isn't a straightforward thing, etc. It would be cool to be in stance all the time fighting with longswords. It sounds for sure that they will add the holy avenger weapon at some point which should be a longsword so that will probably be one kicking longsword. Well you get the picture. For now rapiers for me in the meantime.

[Nick_RC]

Keep in mind you can wait a mod or 2 and make an Elf Paladin/Monk build using longswords and stay centered (would cost a feat, however).

Just something to chew on.

Reasonable build though, if a tad end-game equipment intensive.

Yeah not really a fan of longswords or elves to be honest - i like my humans and warforged. Longswords dont have the crit mult of khops and when i exatled smite i want them to really feel a crit Cheers for the thought tho.

[Nick_RC]

Well for when I vorpal or the like I will. Well I have long term hopes that they will add the feat in the compendium that allows longswords to be used as a monk weapon. Eladrin made it clear that there is no guarantee that the feat will happen and the devs are working on it, it isn't a straightforward thing, etc. It would be cool to be in stance all the time fighting with longswords. It sounds for sure that they will add the holy avenger weapon at some point which should be a longsword so that will probably be one kicking longsword. Well you get the picture. For now rapiers for me in the meantime.

Ah got the logic - so you went elf? yeah was gonna do the same with the vorpalling part. Hmm good times. Should be fun either way...somehting tells me it wont last tho.

N

[krud]

They were my thoughts too... it was an option but it was 95% likeliness would be the 2 lvls of monk.

I would just love to have intimidate... and the point allocation - its two points for a 10 int... or 16hp - and the bump to fort save is negligible. i think the option to maybe fit in CE + an extra skill point a level is worth 16hp. I likely wont be able to fit in intimidate...man i wish it was a pali class skill. Cheers for your thoughts.

N

I'm finding on my intimipali that if one is going to intimidate it pays to have the DR to back it up, which you won't have without a tower shield plus shield mastery feats. Let the real intimitanks pull the red named aggro when needed. If it's for pulling aggro off the hapless caster, meh, carry their stone .

[Nick_RC]

I'm finding on my intimipali that if one is going to intimidate it pays to have the DR to back it up, which you won't have without a tower shield and shield mastery. Let the real intimitanks pull the red named aggro when needed. If it's for pulling aggro off the hapless caster, meh, carry their stone .

LOL. Too true. Editing original post - youve convinced me of what i already knew but was trying to get too much out of it lol

[Jondallar]

Nick have u considered going pierce spec for Heavy Picks/Rapiers? U would free up the khopesh feat for power attack or toughness, allowing you to keep the option for CE and still have access to w/e, but also w/p. Once you you hit with a buffed out Exalted Smite Heavy Pick you will never go back.

[Valiance]

I like this build a lot and having been toying around with something very similar but i'm still not sure about a couple variations.

Variation 1- Halfing dex version v. your build- Going halfing and upping the dex dramatically and going pierce spec'd. My cleric/ranger build has over 60AC pre raiments and chattering ring and I LOVE it. AC is the bomb. By going halfling you'd get significantly higher AC. I know your into the big dmg but really it's very easy to end up with 22 str and 32 dex. That would give you 4 more AC (3 stat, 1 race), 4 more reflex save and 2 more to hit all at the cost of 3 dmg. It would cost a feat for finesse however and limit weapons to rapiers. When all is said and done with shroud weapons ect I'm not sure that the 3 dmg and khopesh outweights all of the above benefits. Something for me to ponder I guess. I'm also thinking that the nice halfing backstab and saves bonuses are about equal to the human versatility enhancements, new toughness enhancements, ect. (Don't forget halflings will get 20 hp boost as well.)

Variation 2- rogue level vs evasion- I am very very tempted to take 1 rogue level. 1d6 backstab, haste boost, full intimidation, full umd vs another monk feat and evasion. Planning for the future I would be very tempted to go 17 pali/2monk/1rogue. With 30 pt resists and lay on hands and high ac do you need evasion? On the other hand I have a toon with high AC and high reflex save and evasion is very very nice.
Edit: To be clear what I mean is at current level cap going 14 pali/1monk/1rogue and postponing evasion for all the above benefits.

I would love to hear other's opinions on these 2 variations above as I've been wanting to roll up one of these for a while but just haven't decided my path yet.

Val

[maddmatt70]

My guildie is also making a 14 paladin 2 monk and chose your first variation but went finesse style for the super high ac build. If I went halfling I would be tempted to go finesse style rather then strength based.

The other option is also intriguing negatives would be difficult not to go with 14 paladin level at 16 cap for zeal though and you could miss out on paladin prestige class 3 at level 18 paladin or monk level 6 long term. That being said my guildie was debating it because there are definitely some +s.

[Valiance]

Human 14 Pali 2 Monk

16 Str + 4 lvls + 6 item + 2 tome = 28
15 Dex +2 tome +6 item + 3 Exc(shroudL2) = 26
8 con +1 tome +6 item +1 human = 16
10 Int + 2 tome at lvl 1 (+3 for CE option)
12 Wis +1 monk +1 Human + 2 tome +6 item = 22
15 Cha + 2 Pali +3 tome + 6 item = 26

N

Oh one more thing. When going human you always want to use your versatility stat bonuses on your highest stats for the best bang for the buck. I see what you're doing with the con point to unlock the 3rd tier of toughness so that's cool. However, if you dropped str down to 15 and used your other stat enhancement there you would have 2 more stat points to burn at creation. One for wis so that you'd end up with the same stats and a bonus point you could put anywhere you liked. (I.e. 11 int so only a plus 2 tome needed for CE or plus 1 for the extra skill point.)

Such as:

15 Str + 4 lvls + 6 item + 2 tome +1 human= 28
15 Dex +2 tome +6 item + 3 Exc(shroudL2) = 26
8 con +1 tome +6 item +1 human = 16
11 Int + 1 tome at lvl 1 (+2 for CE option)
13 Wis +1 monk + 2 tome +6 item = 22
15 Cha + 2 Pali +3 tome + 6 item = 26

Val

[SteeleTrueheart]

, if you dropped str down to 15 and used your other stat enhancement there you would have 2 more stat points to burn at creation.

Bing!

I am always a fan of odd numbered starting stats (and use +1 tomes to fill them in)

Also. Are you only getting the toughness feat from the helm? as you seem to have 1 too many feats. If you somehow get the enhancement options via just the helm feat then be prepared for the nerf bat sooner rather than later.

[Nick_RC]

Yo Val,

Aint seen you in game for a while mate

Re ur points:

Overall the halfling was very appealing but i opted out of it for several reasons;

1. Im not sure if youve noticed but there are soooo many halfling ac guile builds atm - its all well and good except.... if you have the sneak attack damage...then ur ac dont mean squat...unless you have intim...which is sorta ruled out in the 18 pali 2 monk splash. You can probably manage trash mob intim but thats about it. Hence for this aproach id rather stay away from relying on guile and focus on raw up front dps. I also am a pretty bad zerger thats why i a play a **** rog cos im too impatient...for ME the guile wouldnt be too helpful :/

2. Feats are REAL tight as it is - i have several characters il be trying the helm toughness on and if it dont work il have to make room for tough somewhere along the line. What might possibly go is khopesh for pick and toughness replacing it - talked to jondallar in game the other night and he loved picks on his one.

3. Some of ur pros are beyond the point of diminishing returns - talking saves on this monster save build already is much of a muchness - saving on a 2 or more.

4. Skill points are big for me.

5. For ME it just dont feel right as a halfer dex smiting pali. I think thats probably the biggest factor. We could talk numbers all day but something dont sit right about it for me. The halfling is definatly a very attractive alternative no doubt - i think i just like the human tho.

Your second option is really intriguing and one i toyed with aswell. altho not going more than 2 splash classes because if i pt alot of tme and effort i dont really wanna miss out on lv 18 prc. Against raid boss intimidating is nice to be backed up by dr, I often ask myself if evasion is worth it...seems like whenever you really need it it dont work lol. most of my toons do just fine with 30p resists and a good reflex save... i guess its just a nice bonus on the 1st level of monk as well as the feat. intriguing nonetheless. If you roll one lemme knw - i got a few buds who will be rolling new toons come mod 8 - thats when il roll this guy - have a full set of +2 tomes to send his way a well which will be nice.

Oh and one last thing re human adapt - i dont generally plan for it as i never knw what will be brought to the game - pretty much what i did was assume a +3 tome for the 3rd tier divine might (eventual grind will get one ) 15 dex +2 tome for G2wf and the rest was distributed as much as i could see fit. I dont knw what theyl bring out item wise so basically i look to fulfil minimum requirements and maximse strengths - with this guy 5 of ur 6 primary stats are useful so...its a nice gap filler not a point to build around.

Cheers

N

I like this build a lot and having been toying around with something very similar but i'm still not sure about a couple variations.

Variation 1- Halfing dex version v. your build- Going halfing and upping the dex dramatically and going pierce spec'd. My cleric/ranger build has over 60AC pre raiments and chattering ring and I LOVE it. AC is the bomb. By going halfling you'd get significantly higher AC. I know your into the big dmg but really it's very easy to end up with 22 str and 32 dex. That would give you 4 more AC (3 stat, 1 race), 4 more reflex save and 2 more to hit all at the cost of 3 dmg. It would cost a feat for finesse however and limit weapons to rapiers. When all is said and done with shroud weapons ect I'm not sure that the 3 dmg and khopesh outweights all of the above benefits. Something for me to ponder I guess. I'm also thinking that the nice halfing backstab and saves bonuses are about equal to the human versatility enhancements, new toughness enhancements, ect. (Don't forget halflings will get 20 hp boost as well.)

Variation 2- rogue level vs evasion- I am very very tempted to take 1 rogue level. 1d6 backstab, haste boost, full intimidation, full umd vs another monk feat and evasion. Planning for the future I would be very tempted to go 17 pali/2monk/1rogue. With 30 pt resists and lay on hands and high ac do you need evasion? On the other hand I have a toon with high AC and high reflex save and evasion is very very nice.
Edit: To be clear what I mean is at current level cap going 14 pali/1monk/1rogue and postponing evasion for all the above benefits.

I would love to hear other's opinions on these 2 variations above as I've been wanting to roll up one of these for a while but just haven't decided my path yet.

Val

[QuantumFX]

Nick,
Quick thing about Pally toughness. It looks like you're using the old progression +5/+10/+15/+20 for a total of +50. In mod 8 the Fighter/Pally/Barb Toughness enhancements are following the new progression of +10/+10/+10/+10 for a total of +40. So the 4th tier may not be worth the 4 APs. Also, you might want to plan for the contengency the they may have fixed the other issue with toughness enhancements…

[ShadowFox1978]

Doing the 14/2 pally monk also. Using halfling, but going str. Wanted to fit dragonmarks in, so I am giving up the combat feats. I should end up with Mid 60's AC, and the option to bounce between CE and PA as needed. Going to use a Mineral 2 Greataxe for 18-20*5.

Something no one has mentioned on a halfling option is you will almost never need any wands/pots. Between dragonmarks and LoH, I will be packing a serious amount of healing.