Clarification

[Leyoni]

The problem with Tempest AC was that it increased the maximum AC some TWF build could reach. (And yes, they will have to fix monk splash as well.)

I really do not understand this line of thinking.

We have a game that is not dominated by any single class -- regardless of what people might claim. And we have a game that has a declining population. Unnecessary changes to the game create unnecessary problems.

There is no "monk splash" problem. The wisdom bonus to AC is part of the AD&D game. It is no more of a problem than "paladin splash" or "rogue splash" or any other "splash". Each offers something that is beneficial to the character design. But, in taking any splash you also give up something in exchange. This is not a design problem and it is not an implimentation problem. It is a "problem" only because some people are not personally happy about the success of certain builds. That is not something that deserves to be fixed by Turbine.

There is a Tempest problem because the AC benefit stacks when it should not stack. The most reasonable solution is to make it a shield bonus. That causes it to not stack with shields. But, before we go fixing the problem we should ask ourselves, "How big of a problem is it really?"

I simply do not see TWF Tempest builds going with shields -- the loss of attacks and DPS doesn't justify the marginally higher AC. So, while it is an implimentation problem it may not be big enough in actual practice to justify fixing.

If Turbine feels it needs to be fixed the answer is to make it a stacking bonus to TWF defense. Then it only applies when TWF and not when equipped with shield or two-handed weapon. It should stack with the shield spell as that is a magical effect that replicates the armor protection of a shield -- it doesn't actually create a shield that needs to be equipped and used.

Other solutions are not appropriate.

[Leyoni]

You're right. I never justified why. There is no reason to why a game should be balanced!

IMO the question of balance is entirely subjective. There is no mega class dominating DDO. It is unfair to suggest that there is.

In any game, as in life, there will be some options and some paths that are more desireable. However, the game is the sum of the parts. If every character was a Widget then the game would break.

We don't see that happening. There are Widgets and Gizmos and Whatchamacallits -- every character class and some really inventive multiclasses -- running around on every server.

The fact is that many players never realize the full potential of their characters. Nerfing things just because of potential abuses does not serve the best interest of the majority of the gaming population -- it only serves to hurt them. Consider the mega AC 70+ build with all the best equipment, buffs, etc.

To start with the mega AC demonstrates that it is a group effort. You don't get to there without the pocket paladin, bard, cleric to toss out buffs. Second, the loss of 2 from that AC is not a significant hurt. However, if the character is one of the ordinary players where getting to the 60's is effort then the loss of 2 AC really does matter.

Right now I'm running a TWF warforged ranger with 1 level of rogue and 2 levels of monk. I absolutely notice the difference between when I have +3 to AC from barkskin and when I do not. I can tell when barkskin has worn off by the amount of damage I am taking.

A nerf to Tempest hurts players like me a lot more than it hurts the uber build players.

And, in a pure game balance sense, it is much better to play with armor and shield for players like me because you can hit a higher AC that way. I find that there is a wide range of character classes in this more "average" player pool and that none of them are overpowering. Each contributes to the betterment of the entire group.

So, IMO, this is a tempest in a teacup -- much ado about nothing. It should be fixed, but only by bringing the AC bonus into alignment with how it is supposed to work. Make the bonus a stackable part of TWF defense and you solve the problem.

[Sue_Dark]

ok, go back and read the second part of the sentence you QUOTED... items that grant the same speed boost. as hinted. so this prestige enh. will mean nothing. no, most people wont spec out of this because they werent there for the plus 2 ac, but it was a nice feature that came along with it and was not in the slightest broken at all.

not sure how many times im gonna have to say this but:
this doesnt hurt people who already had an amazingly high ac due to splashing and such. it hurts those of us that try to maintain a useful ac without resorting to that.


wondered when you were gonna show your face in here to start gloating. good job all of your incessant whining got you a nerf. a nerf that does NOTHING to curb the high ac of monk spalsh that keeps you up at night but hey, why would ANYONE besides a shield wearing fighter be able to achieve a meaningful ac.

Actually, Tempest AC bonus as it stands on the live servers is presently broken. It states that you get your bonus while wielding 2 weapons, yet you also get that same bonus while you wear a shield. This means broked. Why they didnt just fix it, I dont know. Why they opted to make yet another sweeping change, knowing that players would be upset.. again i dont know. Perhaps the lack of knowledge comes from a lack of information... or a lack of caring..

Waiting to see what happens....

[FoxOne]

To roll my first tempest ranger?

I see the point of both sides,both have rights and wrongs but it definitely is entertaining.Sorry for the interruption.

[Leyoni]

Actually, Tempest AC bonus as it stands on the live servers is presently broken.

True. But, do you see it actually making a difference? Do you see people taking Tempest so that they can wield a shield and get the +2 AC bonus?

I don't.

I see people swinging two weapons.

So, while it is broken it isn't game breaking.

Some posters would have us believe that it is game breaking. But such points of view have no validity for the ordinary player.

The right solution is to make the Tempest AC bonus a stackable part of two weapon defense. That way it works when using two weapons and doesn't work any other time.

[Cold_Stele]

We have a game that is not dominated by any single class -- regardless of what people might claim.

Absolutely 110% correct.

The game's actually dominated by two classes - Ranger and Barb

Or am I the only person that sees Rgr/Barb being the only melees required in LFM's for Shroud?

[Leyoni]

Absolutely 110% correct.

The game's actually dominated by two classes - Ranger and Barb

Or am I the only person that sees Rgr/Barb being the only melees required in LFM's for Shroud?

Ah, but you miss the point young grasshopper.

There are also the clerics, paladins, bards, sorcerers and wizards.

Yes, Shroud doesn't really need a rogue or fighter. So? It is just one quest and it isn't even the top quest any more.

Fighters get in to Shroud groups along with every other class. That is because the Shroud (like the Reaver) doesn't really need all of the people in the raid group. You can't pike so easily in the Shroud but you really don't need all 12 players. You absolutely need the clerics and casters and most people feel you absolutely need a bard. After that it is pretty much just a DPS/AC meat wall that you are looking for.

And that is the point. This game is a necessary combination of classes leading to success. Just because there is less fighter/paladin/rogue love at the moment doesn't justify nerfing a class. It does justify looking at new content to make sure that the love gets spread around.

I find that there is still a lot of server love for good intimitanks. And those are almost never Tempest builds.

[Milolyen]

Okay where to begin here

First off even IF tempest loses its +2 ac you can not say that it is loseing half of its effectiveness because that would be like saying perm 10% haste boost is equal to 2 ac ... ARE YOU Fen KIDDING ME? I don't like A_D's "tact" or lack there of but seriously dude ... you deserved it for that. Second so what if the haste gets changed from an untyped to a typed and they MAY add items with that "type" applied to it in the future. They WONT make it that easy to get. My bet would be they may apply it as a set bonus. Wair these 3 sub par items and get a 10% "tempest type" haste ... mean while tempest 3 may have it increased to 15 or 20% and you wont have to wair those 3 sub par items to get it. (I don't know that is how they may implement but is my guess) Then as Borro stated earlier they could make it one item with 5% "tempest type" haste ml lvl 16 with nothing else on it. While that would be a great item ... the fact that there is nothing else on it would make it a pain to find room to wair and those 6ranger/14other types would still have better and not give up that item slot. Sorry but it is WAY to early to be crying nerf over this ... not to mention it wont do any good.

Milolyen

[Borror0]

We have a game that is not dominated by any single class -- regardless of what people might claim.

While we're not assisting to a domination of the end game by any class, there certainly is a polarization of builds. That's bad as well. While there is no class that is so much better that no other can contribute, it doesn't mean the end game is healthy nor does it mean it's heading in a good direction.

There are clearly builds that are far better than others out there. That's not desirable.

There is no "monk splash" problem. The wisdom bonus to AC is part of the AD&D game.

Justifying something with "it was like that in the original design" is not a valid.

By that logic, MMOs would never update their game. The first draft of the game was not perfect. It had its strength and weaknesses. The same can be said of 3.5 D&D, in which the monk AC bonus is still present where multiclassing makes it overpowered. (I'm too young to know how multiclassing was in AD&D, but I doubt it was as powerful as in 3.X D&D. - I also don't know if it was present at all.) It's not because something is there that it's desirable.

When designers make a game, they playtest it and then release it. With time, they realize the mistake they made. There are always mistakes. No game is perfect. Repetition will reveal mistakes and they should be fixed. All games changed with time. Chests, Magic: The Gathering, D&D, etc. Why? They're trying to become more fun.

It is no more of a problem than "paladin splash" or "rogue splash" or any other "splash". Each offers something that is beneficial to the character design. But, in taking any splash you also give up something in exchange.

You are right when you say "in taking any splash you also give up something in exchange." That's true. You go give up "something". But, I'm willing to give up 1 copper piece for a WoP rapier any day. It's not because that there is a sacrifice that it was a sacrifice hard to make. In fact, in many builds, it's currently a no-brainer to multiclass.

So, the problem with monk splash is that. It's not a sacrifice that is hard to make. Not only in the sense of pure versus multiclassed but also in regards to S&B versus TWF. If you look at the trade-offs, there are far too few in favor of S&B. Most of them being insignificant.

I simply do not see TWF Tempest builds going with shields -- the loss of attacks and DPS doesn't justify the marginally higher AC.

...and there you prove what I meant.

"The loss of attacks and DPS doesn't justify the marginally high AC." That's exactly what Tempest I and monk AC worsen. It's why they are problematic : they take an already fragile balance and increase what was already strongest rather than improving what was weakest.

[vtecfiend99]

unchanged for now. cooler heads at turbine apparently.

good to know lol.






after alot of thought about this last night... I think the real problem with tempest is that there are no other melee based PRE at this time for people to love, so everyone wants to make a ranger or make a 6 ranger splash. Before they needlessly swing the bat at this PRE I hope they wait to see how their other PRE for the more "left behind" melee classes help balance this effect.

[vtecfiend99]

Actually, Tempest AC bonus as it stands on the live servers is presently broken. It states that you get your bonus while wielding 2 weapons, yet you also get that same bonus while you wear a shield. This means broked. Why they didnt just fix it, I dont know. Why they opted to make yet another sweeping change, knowing that players would be upset.. again i dont know. Perhaps the lack of knowledge comes from a lack of information... or a lack of caring..

Waiting to see what happens....

yeah, sue alot of times when you see the word BROKEN bandied about... it's not really talking about not working right. It's kind of a gamer term meaning, "too good" in that it "breaks the game". Holdover from my Mtg days and I forget that alot of people dont know what that means. Sorry about that:-)




p.s. I know it works with shields and i think that is pretty wierd. also should be an easy fix it would seem but maybe not. Easy if they made it a shield bonus lol

[noinfo]

That's silly.
Toughness was designed to give HP to dwarves. Turbine decided it gave too much HP. Same can be said about AC.

Provided they do this to the rediculous dwaf enhancment that lets them get additional ac from dex over other races, no problem.

I also think the barberian critical rage could use a nerf to go with this as well. Anyone possibly think that this is less powerful than +2 ac?

I actually never had a problem with Dwarfs having far greater hp than my elves, they are meant to be tough nasty creatures, not the top of the range in ac that they once were due to the rediculous enhancement they were given with dex and armour. Not to mention they also got cleric racial sp bonus as well?

It only becomes very useful if you have a very high dex and probably a high wisdom as well. Well thats 2 stats, I wonder what con and str look like?

As far as fighters luv this mod, it is really depressing. Really +2 damage max? Ok someone mentioned that they are going to get PC in mod 9, but barberians are getting them at some stage as well and lets face it Critical rage eclipses anything the fighters have.

What about something as simple as changing critical accuracy or something along those lines so that it adds damage as well on crits. Fits in with fighters being better trained. Depending on the numbers it may or may not stack with seeker and may be a separate line to critical accuracy.

Armour Mastery that costs double the Paladin Aura? and you have to have dexterity to use?

Come on now you can do much better than this. Pallys at least get something but the number of short duration spells is so annoying. CE is such a pain with these, having it suppressed for 6 seconds and then reactivate would be a far superiour solution if you insist on such situational spells and abilities.

[Leyoni]

While we're not assisting to a domination of the end game by any class, there certainly is a polarization of builds. That's bad as well. While there is no class that is so much better that no other can contribute, it doesn't mean the end game is healthy nor does it mean it's heading in a good direction.

There are clearly builds that are far better than others out there. That's not desirable.

Says who? At each release there are builds that are better and others that are worse. It is a cycle that will continue to repeat through the life of DDO. It is an impractical and likely impossible task to keep every potential build completely balanced.

So what if rangers are the current hot item? Nothing prevents them from becoming last week's news when the next new content is developed.

This is a lot of concern over one class that is not especially dominant. I don't see any comparable hue and cry over the rogue class -- which is so badly broken with respect to current content that it is the least wanted class in the game.

Justifying something with "it was like that in the original design" is not a valid.

By that logic, MMOs would never update their game. The first draft of the game was not perfect. It had its strength and weaknesses. The same can be said of 3.5 D&D, in which the monk AC bonus is still present where multiclassing makes it overpowered. (I'm too young to know how multiclassing was in AD&D, but I doubt it was as powerful as in 3.X D&D. - I also don't know if it was present at all.) It's not because something is there that it's desirable.

When designers make a game, they playtest it and then release it. With time, they realize the mistake they made. There are always mistakes. No game is perfect. Repetition will reveal mistakes and they should be fixed. All games changed with time. Chests, Magic: The Gathering, D&D, etc. Why? They're trying to become more fun.

Well I'm not so young. I remember when there was no "A" in "D&D". But that is all just a lot of misdirection. The monk splash works as designed and there is nothing inherently wrong with the design.

Obviously you don't like it. That does not make it bad. You don't list a single reason why it is broken or provide any rationale for changing things except this -- things change. That is true but it is not a reason. Change is not automatically good. In this case a change would be bad because monk is such a new addition to DDO that people are just now figuring out how to best integrate it into the game.

That happens to be as a splash to other classes much of the time.

You are right when you say "in taking any splash you also give up something in exchange." That's true. You go give up "something". But, I'm willing to give up 1 copper piece for a WoP rapier any day. It's not because that there is a sacrifice that it was a sacrifice hard to make. In fact, in many builds, it's currently a no-brainer to multiclass.

So, the problem with monk splash is that. It's not a sacrifice that is hard to make. Not only in the sense of pure versus multiclassed but also in regards to S&B versus TWF. If you look at the trade-offs, there are far too few in favor of S&B. Most of them being insignificant.

You really do not know what you are talking about do you? You make absolutely no sense with what you say.

You seem to be saying that sword and board characters are losing out to these multiclass builds. That is nonsense.

I don't know what you think the normal player is able to achieve for AC. But I'll tell you this -- without a lot of specialized equipment the best AC in the game still belongs to the +5 MFP/+5MTS fighter. A dwarf fighter/paladin can achieve the best AC in the game for the average player.

Now, that character will never have more attacks than a TWF build. But, with TWF builds needing to stress DEX over STR the sword and board character may actually out DPS the TWF build most of the time for ordinary players.

If you disagree then PM me and we can continue the discussion off line. But without very difficult to obtain equipment the best standard melee build in DDO is a pretty standard fighter, paladin or fighter/paladin multiclass.

...and there you prove what I meant.

"The loss of attacks and DPS doesn't justify the marginally high AC." That's exactly what Tempest I and monk AC worsen. It's why they are problematic : they take an already fragile balance and increase what was already strongest rather than improving what was weakest.

No I do not. I am saying that all of your whining about AC is misplaced because it isn't being abused even though it could be. I run a tempest multiclass. He does much more damage in TWF mode than in sword and board mode. But, he doesn't typically lead in kill count. That lead is generally reserved for THF barbarians, sword & board STR builds and STR built TWF characters that have not splashed for AC.

So why run the character at all? Because there is significant improvement to survivability over other TWF builds. It takes a lot more effort and a lot longer to kill stuff -- but I take a lot less damage and am more likely to survive. That will change when I start building an inventory of stat damaging, greater bane and instant killing weapons. But, that is a long process and while sounding great in a forum discussion it is a lot harder to achieve when you have to run quests and hope the loot is there.

If the AC bonus was not there it would absolutely not be worth having the tempest feat on a DEX based character. It would only be valuable on a STR based character so that there was more DPS. If a player built that way then they would give up valuable AC.

That can and does happen for players who have been around for a very long time and who have a huge inventory of equipment. But for ordinary, everyday players it is not a reality. We have to sacrifice significantly to achieve even respectable AC.

Tempest AC bonus should remain. It should be coded as a stackable part of two weapon defense. It could even be tied directly to TWD as a prerequisite changing the bonus. How it is implimented is a Turbine issue.

But, it isn't broken for the common folk. I'm sorry you don' like Tempest or what it allows. But, that isn't reason for making a change.

[Leyoni]

p.s. I know it works with shields and i think that is pretty wierd. also should be an easy fix it would seem but maybe not. Easy if they made it a shield bonus lol

NO! That is not the way to fix it. It should be a two weapon defense bonus. TWD doesn't work with shields or with two-handed weapons. Tempest is a form of two weapon defense. That is how is should be coded.

[BLAKROC]

I'm too lazy to was time answering back so I'm just going to make you read this post.

So, why are you complaining? Rangers are still the best melee class out there.

Right now, if I get it right, your complaint sounds like this :
"How dare you Turbine! I had hopes that you would waste precious resources in bringing everyone to my power level rather than nerf me and spend your time on my important issues. How dare you nerf me from very powerful to still very powerful! I deserve to be still as much very powerful as before! You shall not weaken me to fix issues, even if I remain very powerful after!"

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Thing is, Dwooley, AC is all about small bonuses adding to something bigger.

Tempest was part of the problem and was much easier to fix than monk splashes, that is a much more complex issue.

Sorry Borro This time your dead wrong. Temepst feat = +2 ac bonus +10% attack spead.

If tempest no longer has the ac bonus then it is not tempest and there is no reason to change it.

[Leyoni]

I think the real problem with tempest is that there are no other melee based PRE at this time for people to love, so everyone wants to make a ranger or make a 6 ranger splash. Before they needlessly swing the bat at this PRE I hope they wait to see how their other PRE for the more "left behind" melee classes help balance this effect.

Gosh, remember so very long ago when monks were introduced. They were so totally cool. Everyone had to have a monk. You could not log in without finding entire groups made up of nothing but monks. It so totally broke the game that DDO died and Turbine went bankrupt.....

Ok, so maybe DDO didn't die and Turbine continued to operate. But it totally broke the game....

Ok, so maybe it didn't break the game. But, I really hated all those monks filling up every group and giving me no where to PuG.

And then there were the halfling barbarians with the dragonmarks. Who ever heard of a halfling barbarian? Aren't barbarians supposed to be big and scary? I really hate all those halfling barbarians.

Oh, don't forget the halfling <insert class> with those overpowered dragonmarks. Am I repeating the same nonsense? I think I might be. But if I say it often enough and loud enough maybe people will think I know what I'm talking about.....

Wait, that sounds like Borror0's complaints about Tempest ranger builds.

It was untrue about monks. It is untrue about halflings. And its not true about Tempest. dwooley1981 is absolutely right.

[vtecfiend99]

NO! That is not the way to fix it. It should be a two weapon defense bonus. TWD doesn't work with shields or with two-handed weapons. Tempest is a form of two weapon defense. That is how is should be coded.

TWD adds one shield bonus does it not? I might be wrong here but thats how i seem to remember it...


EDIT: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponDefense

Is this not how it works in DDO? never had the feat to spare for it...
now I'm curious haha. anyone know what the bonus type of twd is in ddo?

[vtecfiend99]

Gosh, remember so very long ago when monks were introduced. They were so totally cool. Everyone had to have a monk. You could not log in without finding entire groups made up of nothing but monks. It so totally broke the game that DDO died and Turbine went bankrupt.....

Ok, so maybe DDO didn't die and Turbine continued to operate. But it totally broke the game....

Ok, so maybe it didn't break the game. But, I really hated all those monks filling up every group and giving me no where to PuG.

And then there were the halfling barbarians with the dragonmarks. Who ever heard of a halfling barbarian? Aren't barbarians supposed to be big and scary? I really hate all those halfling barbarians.

Oh, don't forget the halfling <insert class> with those overpowered dragonmarks. Am I repeating the same nonsense? I think I might be. But if I say it often enough and loud enough maybe people will think I know what I'm talking about.....

Wait, that sounds like Borror0's complaints about Tempest ranger builds.

It was untrue about monks. It is untrue about halflings. And its not true about Tempest. dwooley1981 is absolutely right.

haha. best post so far.

thanks:-)

[Leyoni]

TWD adds one shield bonus does it not? I might be wrong here but thats how i seem to remember it...


EDIT: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponDefense

Is this not how it works in DDO? never had the feat to spare for it...
now I'm curious haha. anyone know what the bonus type of twd is in ddo?

In DDO it is a Feat bonus. It does not apply itself if you are not dual wielding. If you equip a shield it does not work, if you wield only 1 weapon with no shield it does not work, if you have no weapons (unarmed) it does not work, if you equip a two-handed weapon it does not work -- it only works while dual wielding (you cannot even fool it by equipping the weapon in your left hand instead of the default right hand).

[Frodo_Lives]

I don't think that the AC bonus from Tempest 1 is overpowering or anything other than a nice bonus, to some an unimportant one, but to others it can be rather meaningfull.

The reason that Rangers are considered a strong melee combatant is because of all the bonuses for their FE, and given that there are so few monster types at each stage of the game it does make it quite powerful. Rangers in PnP weren't combat monsters unless it was against their favored enemies. In DDO they are because most things you face at any given time are your favored enemies.

I find it very amusing that Rangers are thought of as offensive powerhouses, but Paladins shouldn't even think about being in the same league because they get other bonuses to make up for it like spells. I would much rather have the Ranger spell list than the Paladin spell list at almost any level. To me the Ranger is just as versitile as the Paladin, but no one seems to have a problem with the ranger being an "offensive" class.

Really there are lots of things that are much more out of whack than the Tempest enhancement (Critical Rage anyone?) and deserve attention in terms of balancing. I am all for balance so that every class has a role and can be useful, but really nerfing for the sake of nerfing is never a good idea.