Clarification

[vtecfiend99]

We need a response from Tolero or Eladrin here:


Tempest no longer has an ac portion in mod8?

ok, not to go crazy but, what???

THREE FEATS for a 10% swing bonus? Ok, tempest was REALLY expensive feat wise before. Now it is insane.

If the goal was to nerf hybrids would not a better solution be to make the tempest bonus not stack with the wisdom bonus from a monk splash?

or if you're worried about it being to powerful all by itself... well I have nothing here because you're WRONG if that is what you think.

This hurts hybrid builds not one bit (and i dont think thye need to be nerfed either) and instead hammers even pure ranger builds that try to eek out an ac that matters where EVERY SINGLE POINT matters at endgame.

I call b.s. on this nerf and i would like to know:

1: is this true as it is described in the release notes?

2: if it is true what were you thinking?

[captain1z]

As I said in another thread, I viewed the +2 as compensation for not using a shield. A dedicated two weapon fighter who has learned to partially overcome the fact that a shield is missing from his defense. It cost 3 feats, which was a lot.


If the benefits have been cut to half the feat requirements must be re-evaluated unless the bonus at 12th level is

- +20% attack speed
- +4 AC Bonus
- and 1 of the following a) 2 weapon fighting gets glancing blows B) +1 to critical threat range on each weapon c) +1 to critical hit multiplier for each weapon.

[Angelus_dead]

2: if it is true what were you thinking?

This is the kind of question the devs won't answer, because their only two choices are to make you unhappy, or lie to you.

However, I have a good guess about their thought process:
1. We can't get the Tempest AC bonus to work right, and it would take effort to fix.
2. Tempest is overpowered anyhow. Permanent +10% attack rate is a major advantage, especially since the best weapon choice is often con damage or instakill.
3. We'll need some benefits for Tempest II and III, so maybe we can bring some AC kinda thing in later.

[Angelus_dead]

If the benefits have been cut to half the feat requirements must be re-evaluated unless the bonus at 12th level is

Bzzt, wrong.

"+10% attacks" is not half as good as "+10% attacks and +2 AC".
You couldn't claim an Ipod is half as good as an Ipod and a Pepsi, could you?

Most of the benefits of Tempest are still there. The AC boost was never the important part.

[BlackSteel]

Noone took tempest for the AC, is was icing on the cake. All the twf AC builds would still take tempest even without the bugged +2 AC. Think of it as a way to help rebalance S&B by taking 2 AC away from twf. Changing wisdom bonus from monk splash would essentially break alot of characters, and changing the icey rainment would nullify many many many hours of farming for some people. The 2 AC from tempest was and is the easiest way to eliminate some AC from twf w/o upsetting ALOT of people, as tempest is still a very viable and desired enhancement.

[Arkat]

Most of the benefits of Tempest are still there. The AC boost was never the important part.

I must concur. When the level cap goes up, I'm looking forward to 2 more levels of Ranger so I can get the Tempest enhancement. Why? Cuz I want the attack speed bonus. I often forget about the +2 AC bonus but I ALWAYS remember the speed bonus.

[vtecfiend99]

Bzzt, wrong.

"+10% attacks" is not half as good as "+10% attacks and +2 AC".
You couldn't claim an Ipod is half as good as an Ipod and a Pepsi, could you?

Most of the benefits of Tempest are still there. The AC boost was never the important part.

BZZT wrong (to use your completely rude way of saying things)

most of the benefits are there... um there are TWO currently. half is not MOST take a math class, followed up by a dale carnegie course.

the ac bonus was something that made spending three whole feats on a nonmulticlassed toon a liitle more bearable. 10% all by itself is not really all that impressive. especially when they have hinted about items that do this for you without the feat expenditure.

What im saying is that this is an obvious response to the whining and *****ing of a certain forum member i wont name, and it does NOTHING to curb the problem he was talking about. monk splash. when your ac is in the 90s 2 ac doesnt matter. when you are riding the razor edge of usefulness even after looting all of the most precious raid items that exist, 2 ac is HUGE.

this is NOT a nerf to hybrids. this is a nerf to pure rangers. plain and simple. you can bzzt wrong me all you want, but thats the truth of the matter.

[vtecfiend99]

Noone took tempest for the AC, is was icing on the cake. All the twf AC builds would still take tempest even without the bugged +2 AC. Think of it as a way to help rebalance S&B by taking 2 AC away from twf. Changing wisdom bonus from monk splash would essentially break alot of characters, and changing the icey rainment would nullify many many many hours of farming for some people. The 2 AC from tempest was and is the easiest way to eliminate some AC from twf w/o upsetting ALOT of people, as tempest is still a very viable and desired enhancement.

wouldnt making the 2 ac not stack with the wisdom bonus from monk REALLY be the easiest way and the way to not make so many pure builds angry?

[Cashiry]

things happen, same reaction came when they nerfed pally aura back when the cap was 10, adapt and overcome

[kingfisher]

not a big deal. this means that there will be tempest II, which will be way better than having the +2 AC on temp I. i wager that Temp II will be +5 or 10% increased attack speed and the +2 AC and possibly an additional bonus like blocking dr or small damage bonus while TWF. glancing blows seems optimistic

still total beneift would be greater than temp I by far, and i think that without this change there is no Temp II.

disclaimer: if there is Temp III then bonuses will be even more spread out. Cant see them giving more than a total 20% attack speed that stacks with haste and boosts.

[BlackSteel]

wouldnt making the 2 ac not stack with the wisdom bonus from monk REALLY be the easiest way and the way to not make so many pure builds angry?

then what about the person who wants to go mainly monk with 6 ranger for tempest? then he gets screwed. Not to mention the way they're typed would make abosolutely no sense, changing the wisdom bonus over to a feat bonus, or a feat bonus over to a wisdom bonus. And even without the hybrids you could still get a very high AC without the monk splash, the monk splash just made it easier to do w/o having to have absurdly high dex.

[captain1z]

wouldnt making the 2 ac not stack with the wisdom bonus from monk REALLY be the easiest way and the way to not make so many pure builds angry?

All I thought needed to be done was make it so the AC bonus doesnt work with shields.

seriously:


- a +5 shield gives you +7 to AC and good blocking DR
- Tempest gave you +2 and negligable DR

The benefits of using a shield were very obvious. Tempest had 2 granted benefits now there is 1 but still costs 3 feats.

It needs to be rebalanced


Tempest 1 = prereqs should be bab 6, dodge, ranger 6, mobility

Tempest 2 = should be spring attack, bab 12, spring attack, ranger 12

Tempest 3 = greater 2wpn fighting or superior....... whichever one doesnt currently exist that ppl keep talking about.


Why pay the same price and get less than before?

[Ringos]

You couldn't claim an Ipod is half as good as an Ipod and a Pepsi, could you?
part.

Now THIS is a good post!

[Borror0]

10% all by itself is not really all that impressive. especially when they have hinted about items that do this for you without the feat expenditure.

Interesting point of view.

I doubt most would agree with you though. Faster swing rate is extremely powerful. I would be surprised to see anyone dropping the enhancement, saying it's not worth it anymore. If to you the only thing there was with Tempest I was the AC bonus, ok. Spend your precious feats and APs on something else. (I'd be curious to know on what, by the way.)

I like A_D's Pepsi and iPod comparison. Represents well what happened.

[sirgog]

I'd recommend that they keep the +2 AC, but make it a Shield bonus, so it doesn't stack with Shield clickies.

That's IMO a sensible balance change.

[vtecfiend99]

Interesting point of view.

I doubt most would agree with you though. Faster swing rate is extremely powerful. I would be surprised to see anyone dropping the enhancement, saying it's not worth it anymore. If to you the only thing there was with Tempest I was the AC bonus, ok. Spend your precious feats and APs on something else. (I'd be curious to know on what, by the way.)

I like A_D's Pepsi and iPod comparison. Represents well what happened.

ok, go back and read the second part of the sentence you QUOTED... items that grant the same speed boost. as hinted. so this prestige enh. will mean nothing. no, most people wont spec out of this because they werent there for the plus 2 ac, but it was a nice feature that came along with it and was not in the slightest broken at all.

not sure how many times im gonna have to say this but:
this doesnt hurt people who already had an amazingly high ac due to splashing and such. it hurts those of us that try to maintain a useful ac without resorting to that.


wondered when you were gonna show your face in here to start gloating. good job all of your incessant whining got you a nerf. a nerf that does NOTHING to curb the high ac of monk spalsh that keeps you up at night but hey, why would ANYONE besides a shield wearing fighter be able to achieve a meaningful ac.

[Noctus]

Change the unnamed Tempest AC Bonus to a shield bonus.

Why?
In theory the bonus should only be applied when wielding 2 weapons simultaneously (aka TWFing). But currently it is also there when you do something other than TWFing.

But what could that other be? 2 things are possible:
- THFing: only in very special circumstances would a Tempest grab a 2hander.
- using a shield: yep, thats the problem. the master of TWF also is best in Sword and Board. --> not good.

So if you change the Tempest AC Bonus to a Shieldbonus it wouldnt influence his AC when he is turtling up with a Shield, as it is intended. Only when he would use a 2hander he is the time the bonus comes out to help him when it really shouldnt, but that would happen in so few occasions that i say it is neglectible when trying to fix that problem.
this easy to apply solution is not perfect, but way better than the current situation.

[Borror0]

ok, go back and read the second part of the sentence you QUOTED... items that grant the same speed boost. as hinted. so this prestige enh. will mean nothing.

I'm too lazy to was time answering back so I'm just going to make you read this post.

no, most people wont spec out of this because they werent there for the plus 2 ac, but it was a nice feature that came along with it and was not in the slightest broken at all.

So, why are you complaining? Rangers are still the best melee class out there.

Right now, if I get it right, your complaint sounds like this :
"How dare you Turbine! I had hopes that you would waste precious resources in bringing everyone to my power level rather than nerf me and spend your time on my important issues. How dare you nerf me from very powerful to still very powerful! I deserve to be still as much very powerful as before! You shall not weaken me to fix issues, even if I remain very powerful after!"

Correct me if I'm wrong.

wondered when you were gonna show your face in here to start gloating. good job all of your incessant whining got you a nerf. a nerf that does NOTHING to curb the high ac of monk spalsh that keeps you up at night but hey, why would ANYONE besides a shield wearing fighter be able to achieve a meaningful ac.

Thing is, Dwooley, AC is all about small bonuses adding to something bigger.

Tempest was part of the problem and was much easier to fix than monk splashes, that is a much more complex issue.

[vtecfiend99]

yeah great bor. the monk splash that makes you cry your little heart out on the forums losses 2 ac... so what? they walk around still i the mid 80s buffed. someone who doesnt have that spalsh and sits closer to 60, again, the razor edge of useful here, and you see no problem with it.


doesnt pay to argue with you anyway. its apparent from this nerf that you make the decisions around here anyway.

you are telling me, that you honestly dont see how this is unfair to people who DONT splash monk to make an ac monster? sigh im done fighting. honestly, nothing anyone says around here can stand without you or a_d coming in to buzz wrong them or tell them how dumb they are for their opinion.

enjoy your nerf. maybe in a couple weeks after risia has been up for a bit you might come to see how a monk splash suffers no damage from this at all but i doubt it. no one is right but you, ever ever ever ever ever and the rest of us should jump off a ****ing cliff right? later chump.

[Borror0]

yeah great bor. the monk splash that makes you cry your little heart out on the forums losses 2 ac... so what? they walk around still i the mid 80s buffed. someone who doesnt have that spalsh and sits closer to 60, again, the razor edge of useful here, and you see no problem with it.

That 60 is "the razor edge of useful" is another problem.

Having many TWF builds that can reach the AC of S&B while maintaining much higher DPS is another one.

you are telling me, that you honestly dont see how this is unfair to people who DONT splash monk to make an ac monster?

It's not. How is it unfair to them?

Imagine a metagame without monk splash in the picture and then tell me it's unfair.