How to make Dispel Magic a non-broken part of DDO gameplay

[Angelus_dead]

Introduction
It was just announced that Arraetrikos, the preeminent DDO boss for nearly a year, has supposed to have been casting Greater Dispel Magic all along, even though it has never worked until a very recent surge of lag. This serves as a good reminder of the serious problems Dispel Magic has fitting into DDO gameplay.

First, it's important to understand the major changes to the underlying gameplay between D&D and DDO, and how this has shifted the power of buffs, debuffs, and dispels. Because DDO is a realtime game, there is no opportunity for the Dungeon Master to say "Ok, so you walk down the path for 2 more hours and then- roll for Spot check!". Time moves at a constant rate (except when you rest), so there's less chance for minute/level buffs to expire between encounters. Also because of the automatic dice rolling, more combat can be handled in a game session, meaning DDO PCs will face more monsters per minute than D&D characters would meet. That further magnifies the value of buffs on the PCs, because those buffs last for all the monsters in X unit of time, while offensive spells work only on the Y number of monsters attacking at one time.

The obvious conclusion: since PC buffs are more important, for an enemy to use Dispel Magic to unbuff is relatively more valuable than most any other spell they could cast. The converse is also true: for PCs to dispel enemies is unlikely to be helpful.


With that design consideration in mind, here are assorted changes to improve the Dispel Magic family of spells so it can be a better and more-balanced part of DDO gameplay, instead of dispelling and non-dispelling enemy casters being so completely different levels of threat. I don't think it's particularly important for DDO design focus to go on improving Dispel Magic gameplay, but if that were desired, here are some ways to do it.

Background notes:
Dispel Magic is level 3 and allows a maximum caster level modifier of +10.
Greater Dispel Magic is level 6 (bard 5) and allows a caster level of +20.
Break Enchantment is level 5 (bard 4) and allows caster level +15, but is only supposed to work on harmful enchantments, transmutations, and curses. However, the DDO version can also remove lingering environmental spells.

Suggestions
1. Make Dispel Magic (and similar) a multiple-choice spell, using a popup window like Resist Energy. The four choices are:
a. Dispel All- like the current spell
b. Dispel Defensive- attempt to remove only harmful spells
c. Dispel Offensive- attempt to remove only beneficial spells (those that would be removed by a rest shrine, plus Fingalar buffs)
d. Dispel Smart- act as Offensive or Defensive, depending on if the target is a friend or foe.
Obviously, this change would lead every caster with Dispel to put Dispel Smart on their bar as the preferred mode.

2. When Dispel Magic (and similar) is cast without a selected target, it shouldn't apply to the caster. Instead it should work as an AOE dispel that removes lingering environmental spells from a circular AOE. If used in Smart or Defensive mode, it only removes hostile effects. In Offensive mode it removes friendly effects. In All mode it gets both.

3. For reasons of D&D fidelity only, remove the ability of Break Enchantment to clear lingering evocations, conjurations, and the like, as they can now be handled by untargetted Dispel.

4. Add Gust of Wind as a wiz2 spell which acts as Dispel Smart, but only against cloud-based spells like Obscuring Mist or Glitterdust. In addition, it could have a weak CC knockdown against Small enemies.

5. Make the central eye beam of a beholder suppress magic for 3 second intervals, instead of dispelling it. (Beholders should not act like they spam CL 500 Dispels every 3 sec, as that is far above their supposed challenge-level)

6. Add Suppress Magic as a new level 2 spell, for any class that gets Dispel Magic. It functions similar to Dispel Magic (including the multiple-choice menu described above), except that instead of being truly removed, spells it hits are only deactivated for 6 sec + 1/level. (It can be Extended). However, the caster of Supress Magic gets a +2 bonus on the caster level check.

7. Add Greater Suppress Magic as a new level 5 spell, for any class that gets Greater Dispel Magic. It functions as above, except with the obviously higher caster level limit.

8. Change the majority of monsters who cast Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic to use Supress or Greater Supress instead. From the players' point of view this is a weaker attack, because their buffs return in under a minute. However, from the monsters' selfish point of view it's better, because the higher caster level makes it more likely to success than Dispel, and they won't care what happens when it expires because their fight is over by then. (Monsters do not generally look ahead to the future after they're killed, so their tactics don't put value on weakening the players for their buddies to kill later)

9. New enhancement: Tenacious Magic I, II, III. Available to all casters, you gain a +1,+2,+3 bonus on rolls to resist Dispel and Suppress.

10. New enhancement: Counterspell Mastery I, II, III. Available to any class that gets Dispel Magic, you gain a +1,+2,+3 on Dispel/Suppress Magic rolls.

11. Altered feat: Spell Focus Abjuration also gives a +1 bonus on dispel checks, and so do Abjuration Focus magic items. (Arcane Focus items don't have this benefit)

12. New enhancement: Spellcarved Soldier I, II, III. Available to Warforged, beneficial spells on you have +1,+2,+3 bonuses to resist Dispel and Supress attempts. (Based on material in Races of Eberron. Note that the Spellcarved Prestige class could be expanded into a whole racial class specialty)

13. New magic item properties like Resilient Magic, which grant beneficial spells on the wearer a +X bonus to resist Dispel/Suppress attempts.

14. Alter enhancement: Arcane Archer so that the character gains a +3 bonus to caster level for the purpose of dispel and SR checks against the targets you damage with an arrow, lasting for 8 seconds.

15. Add Greater Dispel to the Paladin list at level 4. This is to correct a simple oversight: D&D paladins have caster level = level/2, while DDO paladins have double that. Therefore D&D pallies improve dispelling at every 2 levels, and are always far behind wizards. But DDO pallies are exactly equal to wizards up to level 10, and then stop improving because they hit the cap for non-Greater dispel. Since their caster level is higher, they should be able to use it for Greater Dispel. (Alternatively they could be given a 50% CL penalty when using Dispel Magic, but I wouldn't suggest that). (Paladins, then, would have Greater Suppress at level 3)

[Gol]

16. Ignore 1-4 and 6-15. Compensate with smarter tactics instead.

[Angelus_dead]

16. Ignore 1-4 and 6-15. Compensate with smarter tactics instead.

If you think you have some valid point, you should probably try again. I can't tell you why that is, but the result of your post was not what you intended.

[Jesen]

I don't think this is necessary.

Unfortunately dispel is not very useful due to mobs living 5-10 seconds. Why bother dispelling when you can just kill them with a finger, hold, scorching ray, banish?

Break Enchantment is already very useful, ever had a Blade barrier that the melee have to jump into to attack a mob or were stuck in? Throw a Break Enchantment on it.

How about, some caster in your raid believes to control 2 mobs you need Web, Dancing Ball, Solid Fog and Acid Fog. Throw down a Break Enchantment, everybody is happy!(Well except the caster who just blew 100+SP).

Or, Jim Thefunnyguy throws the 50th grease of the raid...well you get my drift.

The actual spells work fine, its the usefulness of them that is lacking. Dispel on PC chars is a whole different story though. In PVP Greater Dispel is awesome, but thats becuase PC characters now rely on buffs(See: Any "AC Build", "Max TWF build" etc.).

But from memory, most monsters are beefed up prior to buffing and do not need buffs to perform well. Therefore making Dispel and Greater Dispel far less useful. I mean if Arretrikos had some Greater Hero, Haste etc. on him at the start of the fight you would definitely want to dispel those and other effects off before sending in melee to get smacked around.


-Jesen

[MrCow]

I mean if Arretrikos had some Greater Hero, Haste etc. on him at the start of the fight you would definitely want to dispel those

Given the state of CR on monsters vs. player Caster Levels, even if you wanted to dispel those buffs from Big Red, could you? Given that example I think you could only dispel those on normal difficulty.

[Jesen]

Given the state of CR on monsters vs. player Caster Levels, even if you wanted to dispel those buffs from Big Red, could you? Given that example I think you could only dispel those on normal difficulty.

Good point, didn't even consider that.




-Jesen

[Angelus_dead]

Given the state of CR on monsters vs. player Caster Levels, even if you wanted to dispel those buffs from Big Red, could you?

Notice that amoung my suggestions were ways DDO player characters could chose to increase their caster level for the purpose of dispelling bosses. Greater Suppress, Counterspell, and Abjure Focus items come up to a total +6 increase. The Abjure focus feats could go up even more. (Possibly my suggestions would be better if they gave +2,+4,+6 for the dispel enhancements, to make it more worthwhile to spend APs on improving such a narrow list of spells)

PS. If the boss had Haste, you could dispel it without rolling a caster check if you had specifically prepared Slow. That would be an effective way for a wizard to take off 25% of his DPS.

[Angelus_dead]

Break Enchantment is already very useful, ever had a Blade barrier that the melee have to jump into to attack a mob or were stuck in? Throw a Break Enchantment on it.

1. That's against the D&D rules, because as already explained, BE isn't supposed to work on Evocation spells.
2. You can't cast BE when you're level 5, but it'd be nice to be able to remove some enemy spells before you can get BE, which by the D&D rules you could do with Dispel Magic.
3. BE caps out at +15, meaning it should soon stop being effective on the spells from higher-level casters. Greater Dispel keeps going.

[sirgog]

These are some excellent ideas, especially the Suppress Magic idea.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

16. Ignore 1-4 and 6-15. Compensate with smarter tactics instead.

QFT

Garth

[Angelus_dead]

QFT

For your information, that kind of response just makes it appear you guys failed to comprehend the post. If you want to refute it while appearing somewhat knowledgable, you'll need to be a least a little specific.

To "compensate with smarter tactics" is impossible, because it's not as if I'm complaining that some monsters are too hard or whatever. It's that activities like dispelling magic are not an effective part of gameplay, nor do they convey any of the feeling Dispel had in D&D. No tactics by the player can change how the game mechanics work (unless it's something like Permadeath, where players willingly nerf their own features)

In D&D it was expected that a sorcerer would take Dispel Magic at level 6 or 7, and upgrade to Greater Dispel at level 13. It was so useful that to do otherwise was a worrisome risk. But in DDO, not only is it a joke for a sorc to learn Dispel, but also wizards and clerics hardly find it of any value. Greater Dispel should be a reasonable way to cure Crushing Despair, but it's not. Conversely, Dispel Magic is super-useful for monsters, and giving even the 3rd level version to the monsters in a level 15-18 quest would majorly increase the difficulty, as well as shift your whole tactics around.

[Uska]

Unlike most of the time I like most of what the OP has put espcially #5 but the rest wouldnt be bad either if it could be worked out without breaking something else.

[Gol]

If you think you have some valid point, you should probably try again. I can't tell you why that is, but the result of your post was not what you intended.

The dozen or so PMs in my inbox, all stating "LOL @ your post on A_D's thread" in some form or another beg to differ.

The purpose of my post was purely comedic in nature. It was to mock an overly complicated and longwinded diatribe (and the ego-stroking that was sure to follow) by offering an almost (but not quite) over-simplistic alternative that our friend "average Joe" understands during his evening forum cruising. It comes as no surprise that you completely missed my point. In fact, I was expecting it. Based on the assumption that you put a lot of thought into the post (and I admittedly could be wrong here, but I doubt it), the pride of ownership often blinds one's self to mockery of the produced work.

It's my opinion that your suggested changes have the following effects:
1) It's so complicated, most people aren't going to understand it. And even if they do, they aren't going to care.
2) (Greater) Dispel Magic still won't be carried by most or any casters, whether they understand it or not
3) I can think of dozens of things I'd rather see developers fix, #5 not withstanding.
4) Several of your suggestions involve further breaking from the core rules to fix something else they broke from the core rules in the first place, where as just fixing the original problem would be much better (1,6-15)
5) It's so complicated, most people aren't going to understand it. And even if they do, they aren't going to care.

Yes, I repeated something. That was for emphasis (and comedy).

[Gol]

To "compensate with smarter tactics" is impossible, because it's not as if I'm complaining that some monsters are too hard or whatever. It's that activities like dispelling magic are not an effective part of gameplay, nor do they convey any of the feeling Dispel had in D&D.

Impossible?

- Let's take our favorite example, mr beholder. Invis. Sneak to Flank. Finger of Death. Done.
- Our second favorite, velah's fire breath. Put casters in a safe spot, rebuff/heal as needed. Done
- Our new favorite, big Harry. Send in warforged to tank and grab a bunch of Rangers in part 4. In part 5, have 4 meat types shield block to absorb the dispells and have said rangers toast him. Done.

The part you bolded is purely subjective and based on your "feeling" of what D&D "should" be like. I happen to like it. If I was a DM and my players wandered into fights buffed to the teeth, darn skippy enemy mobs would start carrying dispel. It makes perfect sense. Subjective-opinion-stated-as-fact-from-egotist DENIED.

[Jesen]

2) (greater) Dispel Magic Still Won't Be Carried By Most Or Any Casters, Whether They Understand It Or Not

Qft

[sirgog]

Impossible?


The part you bolded is purely subjective and based on your "feeling" of what D&D "should" be like. I happen to like it. If I was a DM and my players wandered into fights buffed to the teeth, darn skippy enemy mobs would start carrying dispel. It makes perfect sense. Subjective-opinion-stated-as-fact-from-egotist DENIED.

I wouldn't metagame it quite like that, but once foes realised the PCs were so heavily buffed and escaped an encounter with the PCs, those foes, plus any of their allies that expect to fight the PCs, would certainly start carrying Dispel Magic variants.

Higher level opponents expecting to come into contact with the PCs may use Divination magics (or more mundane methods such as researching the PCs, or bribing their former allies) to discern both their likely tactics and that the PCs will be highly susceptible to dispelling as well.


How does this fit the Arraetrikos encounter?

He should use Dispelling often in part 5 but seldom in part 4, IMO. In particular, he should dispel only those characters with visible buffs (such as Fire Shield) in part 4, but any and all characters in part 5, particularly those that seem unhurt by his Meteor Swarm, or those that have died and been raised and then spent some time standing near a bard or arcane caster. That's a non-metagamed, intelligent strategy for Harry to use. (Pit Fiends have genius intellect, after all).

[Kargon]

5. Make the central eye beam of a beholder suppress magic for 3 second intervals, instead of dispelling it. (Beholders should not act like they spam CL 500 Dispels every 3 sec, as that is far above their supposed challenge-level)

9. New enhancement: Tenacious Magic I, II, III. Available to all casters, you gain a +1,+2,+3 bonus on rolls to resist Dispel and Suppress.

10. New enhancement: Counterspell Mastery I, II, III. Available to any class that gets Dispel Magic, you gain a +1,+2,+3 on Dispel/Suppress Magic rolls.

Kargon pretty much only find these 3 suggestimions to be worth implementaming. The rest of them all seem like a lot of extrama codaming for very little or no benemafit, or when changing things to be even less like PnP, a detrimament.

In fact, Kargon would go so far as to combine 9 and 10 to make it even more simple (and worthmawhile cost wise to take):

New enhancement: Tenacious Magic I, II, III. Available to all casters, you gain a +2,+4,+6 bonus on rolls to resist Dispel and Suppress.
Kargon would set the AP cost at eithermer 1/1/1 (totamal 3) or 1/2/3 (totamal 6).

Kargon feel that when developamers added a monstamer with dispel they know how dangermerous it are, and they felt the dungeon deserved the dangermer. Dispel are very rare for a reasamon.

[Angelus_dead]

The purpose of my post was purely comedic in nature. It was to mock an overly complicated and longwinded diatribe (and the ego-stroking that was sure to follow) by offering an almost (but not quite) over-simplistic alternative that our friend "average Joe" understands during his evening forum cruising.

You really should learn the definition of words like "diatribe" before you use them.
It could also help if you learn the forum rules, before you break them.

1) It's so complicated, most people aren't going to understand it. And even if they do, they aren't going to care.
2) (Greater) Dispel Magic still won't be carried by most or any casters, whether they understand it or not
3) I can think of dozens of things I'd rather see developers fix, #5 not withstanding.

This is why I suggested that you read things before you mockingly dismiss them. Your complaints indicate you have no knowledge about what I actually suggested.

You may scroll up at any time to read it. Or, I will repeat it here:

I don't think it's particularly important for DDO design focus to go on improving Dispel Magic gameplay, but if that were desired, here are some ways to do it.

What part of that do you fail to understand?

I happen to like it. If I was a DM and my players wandered into fights buffed to the teeth, darn skippy enemy mobs would start carrying dispel

Yes, that's my point.

DDO player characters are majorly buffed almost all the time, so you would hope the monsters could dispel them. But high level monster casters do not dispel players. The devs can't give them dispel, because it's so imbalanced when transferred to the DDO environment. This is something I already explained above.

[Angelus_dead]

Kargon pretty much only find these 3 suggestimions to be worth implementaming. The rest of them all seem like a lot of extrama codaming for very little or no benemafit, or when changing things to be even less like PnP, a detrimament.

I already explained in detail how the D&D environment doesn't allow a minute-per-level buff to last long enough to fight 250 monsters. In M&S we have a saying that microfidelity can obstruct macrofidelity. Adhering to the small rules when the big rules are already different does not necessarily make a translation more exact, and can often make things worse.

Kargon feel that when developamers added a monstamer with dispel they know how dangermerous it are, and they felt the dungeon deserved the dangermer. Dispel are very rare for a reasamon.

Yes, as I already explained. Dispel Magic when used by monsters is a massively powerful spell with an extreme cost on the resources of the PCs. A single Greater Dispel Magic can wipe out 100-200 mana worth of buffs, which is like 1200 hitpoints of damage (using the Heal spell as the baseline for converting mana into hitpoints).

That kind of cost is far out of line with the level of the spell, compared to other level 3-5 spells the mob could chose.

Because it's so very powerful, the developers are unable to give Dispel to very many monster casters, even though it's totally logical they'd want something like that. The game rules allow a typical level 18 enemy theurge to easily learn Greater Dispel Magic, yet aside from Beholders (who are broken in the other direction) hardly any high-level monster will try to Dispel.

My suggestion to teach the monsters Suppress Magic instead would open additional design space and create new gameplay opportunities, because they'd have a way for a monster to counteract your buffs, without completely erasing them. It would open new possibilities, letting the developers actually making anti-spell attacks a typical part of gameplay, and also reduce the reliance on casters as rebuff-machines when dispelling happens.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

what an incredibly long winded over complicated useless post. thanks.

never, in the history of internet forums have i had the pleasure of reading someone with the massive ego you throw around here. must be a real treat to know you in rl dude.....

jesus...

Whether I agree with the post or not is irrelevant. Several of you(just quoting the worst) are ripping A_D a new one solely because of the length of his post.

Protip: There have been about 10 "long" posts by users in the past two weeks or so. Did anyone read Aesop's post and give similar thoughts about how "egotistical" he was?

You are reaming him solely because of his name. If you don't like him, don't read his threads. If you don't care either way(like me)/like him, post something constructive.

My 2cp