Mod 8 Changes to Toughness

[kingfisher]

this is fair. why is toughness any different than iron will or similar body-improvment type feats? all races should reap benefits to a degree.

[DoctorWhofan]

Looks good! my WF cleric is cashing out, so are my Pallys! nice.

[Impaqt]

It doesnt have anything to do with race, they took the "Toughness" feat, therefore they are tougher.

What makes no sense is the current implimentation not allowing anyone with the feat to improve it via APs. Its still better on Dwarves and finally WF(yay), but also reflects that "tougher" individuals can be found in the other races(aka able to take the toughness feat) This sounds like a very good way to do it, for all parties involved.



This is a great move, ty for the heads up on this info OP.

Actually, Dwarves and WF Start witha 10 BASE Con. THats Why theu are Inherantly Tougher... Nothing to do with TOughness at that point.

[Noctus]

Excellent change!

Two thumbs up!

[Samadhi]

Assuming this is accurate, this was a very well thought out way to implement this. /Approved

[llevenbaxx]

Actually, Dwarves and WF Start witha 10 BASE Con. THats Why theu are Inherantly Tougher... Nothing to do with TOughness at that point.

Really?...

They are basically making it an option equal for all races with this change. Sure they could have just given Dwarves and WF a tier2 line with con1&2 prereqs, humans teir1 with adpt con prereq but this would imo be a larger and more negative change.

For Dorfs an WF, it now will require alot more investment in an increaingly difficult to choose enhancement system. Like you said this all is on top of the Base10 still.

I think they made the right move by allowing other races to also get a couple extra hps(close the gap = better balance imho) with the feat, seems smaller and more positve imho. To just take them away at this point would be to big a change for better or worse.

[Nevthial]

!! A move in the right direction !!!!

[Tin_Dragon]

Again, I believe all these imbalance issues OF enhancements simply comes down to one thing, they do NOT belong in DDO. The game system they use, or have based this game on, was ALREADY balanced.

Specialties beyond the standard, were implemented with PrCs, and added feats.

Somewhere in Alpha/Beta, if my 2nd hand info is correct, the testers, majority of which were apparently NOT familiar with 3rd D&D, complained about immediate effects at that time, and couldnt wait for later updates to bring about specialties, thus the unbalanced and partially thought out idea of enhancements was born. Something that still doesnt mesh with the current system.

Thusly, mobs were given greater HPs and damage boosts from thier MM values to make up for all the extra damage the early release of over powered gear and abilities gave out toons early on.

This opens a wider, and older debate again, so lets just simply say, that the entire argument is going no where AGAIN, other than to take up space, Imma go farm something Cheers!

[Vandos]

Another half assed botched attempt at balancing an imbalance that they themselves created.

Why now give racial toughness to all races? stupid. And yet even more stupid is that there is a distinction between the races.

There should be no racial toughness enhancements lines at all.

Dwarves are already tougher as they can achieve a starting con of 20, it is easier to "buy" a 16 starting con on a dwarf that a halfling. They also have dwarven con 1+2 to make them even "tougher". They did not need a toughness enhancement line, it was a mistake.

I am in total agreement with Impaqt, enhancement lines with a feat prerequisite should only depend on taking that feat.

A halfling rogue takes the toughness feat then it should open up the enhancement line. A cleric takes maximize then it should open up that enhancement line etc.

Race has nothing whatsoever to do with the toughness FEAT and enhancements to that FEAT. If you dont take the feat you dont get the enhancement line.

If they are revisiting the enhancement system then that is the change I would most like to see. Spend a slot on a feat and you get the enhancement line for that feat.

[jmonty]

aren't there bigger issues, like lag, content, etc?

[BlackSteel]

Another half assed botched attempt at balance.

Why now give racial toughness to all races? stupid.

There should be no racial toughness enhancements lines at all.

Dwarves are already tougher as they can achieve a starting con of 20, it is easier to "buy" a 16 starting con on a dwarf that a halfling. They also have dwarven con 1+2 to make them even "tougher". They did not need a toughness enhancement line, it was a mistake.

I am in total agreement with Impaqt, enhancement lines with a feat prerequisite should only depend on taking that feat.

A halfling rogue takes the toughness feat then it should open up the enhancement line. A cleric takes maximize then it should open up that enhancement line etc.

Race has nothing whatsoever to do with the toughness FEAT and enhancements to that FEAT. If you dont take the feat you dont get the enhancement line.

If they are revisiting the enhancement system then that is the change I would most like to see. Spend a slot on a feat and you get the enhancement line for that feat.

all races get the toughness line now, up to rank 2

it gives more build options, but to be honest, other than a very minor nerf to alot of dwarves, quite a few builds will have a hard time squeezing out the AP's for the extra hp. I wouldnt even know what I would want to drop on my cleric to get a measly 10-40 more hp. (well 40 isnt measly, but dang expensive)

[Vandos]

Why do all races get the racial toughness line now? it is stupid and not needed.

Remove the dwarven toughness enhancement line. Give the line to any class/race that takes the feat.

Problem solved.

[Dracolich]

I say while we are balancing races we change halflings to not being able to weild large weapons and having to weild medium weapons two handed, or just make their weapons do one category smaller in damage. Also movment rates of dwarves and halflings need reduced. People wearing plate armor need their movment reduced, we have the skill negetives but not the movment negetives.

I like the toughness change as previously stated, if it wasnt broken to begin with they wouldnt need to break it further. Just go back to the basic ruleset instead of borking it further.

[ArkoHighStar]

Why do all races get the racial toughness line now? it is stupid and not needed.

Remove the dwarven toughness enhancement line. Give the line to any class/race that takes the feat.

Problem solved.

because all races can take the toughness feat, sorry your in the minority here. It was a very good solution to an unbalanced enhancement.

[DagazUlf]

I like it.

[BlackSteel]

Why do all races get the racial toughness line now? it is stupid and not needed.

Remove the dwarven toughness enhancement line. Give the line to any class/race that takes the feat.

Problem solved.

um... thats exactly what they did to an extent

[Vandos]

um... thats exactly what they did to an extent

Nowhere near it.

A monk/rogue/cleric/wiz cannot enhance the toughness feat as a class enhancement after spending a feat on it.

If you add an enhancement line that has a prerequisite of taking a feat then taking the feat should open up the line. Not class based, not racial based but feat based.

[oogly54]

It is a move in the right direction but it is still silly. Dwarves are more sturdy, hense he +2 racial bonus to CON. DONE! No more needed. They are differentiated by that. Giving them Con enhancement line widens the gap, giving them better tougheness line widenes the gap more. We are continually making something that is supposed to be a small difference much, much bigger than intended.

Elves get more DEX during rolling, and more DEX with enhancments, but where is the tougness equivilent enhancment that is only given to elves? It is in the form of aromor mastery, WHICH IS GIVEN TO DWARVES. Silly.

Dwarves are short and sturdy, not fast and fleeting.

[BlackSteel]

Nowhere near it.

A monk/rogue/cleric/wiz cannot enhance the toughness feat as a class enhancement after spending a feat on it.

If you add an enhancement line that has a prerequisite of taking a feat then taking the feat should open up the line. Not class based, not racial based but feat based.

all those classes certainly can take the feat and get the a racial enhancement, they cant double dip with a class enhancement tho which is fine. Its not in game yet, but thats what this whole thread is about, the changes to toughness that are now in the ddo compendium.

ANY character that takes the feat gets the first two tiers opened up as a racial enhancement

[Vandos]

because all races can take the toughness feat, sorry your in the minority here. It was a very good solution to an unbalanced enhancement.

It is not a good solution at all and if you think it is well then you don't see the problem.

The fact that they are doing this should tell you that there is a problem and they are trying to address it. You say yourself it is an unblanced system.

Giving one race a bigger benefit above and other race does not equal balance.