My attempt at a pure defensive tank

[Craggath]

Build breakdown below character planner post

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Tank 
Level 16 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(11 Fighter \ 3 Paladin \ 2 Monk) 
Hit Points: 308
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 23
Reflex: 16
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 16)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            14                    14
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence         12                    13
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma             12                    14

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 16)
Balance               2                     0
Bluff                 1                     2
Concentration         3                     4
Diplomacy             1                     2
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                1                     3
Heal                 -2                    -2
Hide                  2                     0
Intimidate            5                    26
Jump                  7                    20
Listen               -2                    -2
Move Silently         2                     0
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     1
Search                1                     1
Spot                 -2                    -2
Swim                  3                     2
Tumble                n/a                   2
Use Magic Device      3                    11.5

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Mithral Body


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Deflect Arrows


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Force of Personality
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Luck of Heroes


Level 7 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 8 (Fighter)


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Resilience


Level 10 (Fighter)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Bash


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Bullheaded


Level 13 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Shield Mastery


Level 14 (Fighter)


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Shield Mastery
Feat: (Selected) Lightning Reflexes


Level 16 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery III
Enhancement: Way of the Clever Monkey I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate I
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate II
Enhancement: Fighter Intimidate III
Enhancement: Paladin Charisma I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking I
Enhancement: Warforged Construct Thinking II
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction I
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction II
Enhancement: Warforged Damage Reduction III
Enhancement: Warforged Hardiness I
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I

I'm not familiar at all with equipment at high levels, so I'm afraid I can't show this builds full potential. However, here's my shot:

Intimidate:
26 base build
11 item
2 heroism potion
3 +6 cha item

=42

Armor class:
10 base
5 mithral body
5 dex (with +6 item)
5 docent
9 +5 tower shield
1 dodge
5 CE
2 self pally aura
3 barkskin pot (or do they sell +4's now?)
5 +5 prot item
1 parrying weapon

= 51/53 blocking, which I know is not enough. Am I missing anything and what can I do to get it higher? What other pieces of equipment will help me here?

Saves:

Fortitude:
23 base build
3 +6 con item
3 +6 cha item
5 +5 resist item
2 pally aura
2 heroism
1 parrying item
= 39/43 with Resilience

Reflex:
16 base build
3 +6 dex item
3 +6 cha item
5 +5 resist item
2 heroism
2 pally aura
1 parrying weapon

= 32/33 vs. traps/36 with Resilience. Is this enough?

Will:
15 base build
3 +6 cha item
3 +6 cha item again (force of personality)
5 +5 resist item
2 heroism
2 pally aura
1 parrying weapon

=31/33 vs. enchantments/35 with Resilience.

HP:
308 base
46 +6 con item
20 improved False life item

=376

Other perks of this build:

minor UMD potential

Massive DR when blocking with a shield, thanks to Shield mastery and Improved Shield mastery

Evasion (not really worth mentioning, but it's there)

As a warforged I don't have to worry about poison, disease, exhaustion, paralysis, enervation, etc. which allows me more manueverability in the equipment department. I won't have to worry about taking off my +6 con belt to put on my poison proof item.

Any comments or suggestions, particularly in the AC and Reflex save department, are welcome.

Edited from original to include suggestions

[Blazer]

Even "pure defensive tanks" need to swing a weapon, contribute DPS, and kill stuff now and again. As such, 10 STR is laughable. You DO NOT need 15 CHA, especially on a WF, to successfully intimidate all the mobs in this game; it is simply too costly for the attribute points.

Try to pull that CHA down to 11-12 and bump that STR to 16. You'll be better off in the long run.

[Aranticus]

Even "pure defensive tanks" need to swing a weapon, contribute DPS, and kill stuff now and again. As such, 10 STR is laughable. You DO NOT need 15 CHA, especially on a WF, to successfully intimidate all the mobs in this game; it is simply too costly for the attribute points.

Try to pull that CHA down to 11-12 and bump that STR to 16. You'll be better off in the long run.

/signed

[sirgog]

Even "pure defensive tanks" need to swing a weapon, contribute DPS, and kill stuff now and again. As such, 10 STR is laughable. You DO NOT need 15 CHA, especially on a WF, to successfully intimidate all the mobs in this game; it is simply too costly for the attribute points.

Try to pull that CHA down to 11-12 and bump that STR to 16. You'll be better off in the long run.

Agreed on the Cha and Str, but you will need a higher Intimidate. 52 is the key breakpoint where you can hold the aggro of every foe in the game.

Fortunately, you will have more help hitting that than you realise.

You can get a +15 Intim item (these are pretty rare, but sadly needed for the build). You can also get a +4 boost from Greater Heroism (cast by a party member or from a clicky), and a Shroud item can boost the skill further, by 1 to 6.

Charisma tomes are now common enough that you can hope to loot one at endgame (IMO it's pretty reasonable to assume you'll have 2-3 +2 tomes at endgame if you shoot for them).

[vyvy3369]

...You DO NOT need 15 CHA, especially on a WF, to successfully intimidate all the mobs in this game; it is simply too costly for the attribute points...

I have to agree with this - I started my 16 Fighter with a 6 Charisma back in Head Start days, and have his intimidate up to +53 unbuffed (which typically means +57 w/ GH or +59 if there's a Bard around). Plenty to completely floor everything in the game on normal, and a pretty good chance at even the Hound on elite. Yeah, it takes a lot of equipment, but that's what Fighters seem to be all about these days.

Edit: and since you're probably going to argue that it's for the extra saves, it's probably not worth it there either. Sure you may want to get it up to 12 or so (since up until then it's only 1 point for another +1), but getting up to 15 gives you an extra +2 I'd assume at the cost of a lot of your build points.

[Craggath]

Thanks for all the great feedback. The original post has been edited. He's now got 22 str end game and improved crit: slashing. I just have one more concern:

Is this guy viable in terms of Armor class?

[Aesop]

why the monk levels?

[Craggath]

Evasion, mostly. Then there were 2 bonus feats and +3 to all saves to make it more enticing.

[Aesop]

Evasion, mostly. Then there were 2 bonus feats and +3 to all saves to make it more enticing.

Personal opinion here but you'd get more mileage out of Rogue levels. (Evasion Sneak Attack and the big one UMD. I'd also spread them out further. Say level 1 and level 10. Being able to wand whip, scroll spam and Equip race restricted is a very nice thing.

if you weren't going with mithril body I'd say Monk levels would work fine but with Mithril Body it just doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Aesop]

Armor class:
10 base
5 mithral body
5 dex (with +6 item)
5 docent
9 +5 tower shield
1 dodge
5 CE
2 self pally aura
3 barkskin pot (or do they sell +4's now?)
5 +5 prot item
1 parrying weapon

= 51/53 blocking, which I know is not enough. Am I missing anything and what can I do to get it higher? What other pieces of equipment will help me here?

Chaosguards= +2 Dodge Bonus
Shield and Armor Alchemical Rituals= +1 each
Shroud Weapon could net +4 Insight (instead of +1 for Parry)



HP:
308 base
46 +6 con item
20 improved False life item

308 Base before items or Favor
+6 Con item at lvl 16 = 48 HP
Greater False Life Item= 30 HP
Agent of Argonessen Favor = 10 HP
Minos Legens= 18 HP at level 16
Shroud HP item= 45 HP
+2 Con Tome = 16 HP

so about 465 HP potential

=376

Aesop

[Craggath]

yeah, and I'd be using Tower Shields on this guy too. I may try a different approach to the whole thing (I'm eyeing the ranger/monk builds on the Ranger forum)

[Aesop]

yeah, and I'd be using Tower Shields on this guy too. I may try a different approach to the whole thing (I'm eyeing the ranger/monk builds on the Ranger forum)

Well what is your overreaching goal with this build? That's the first thing to consider

You may also want to hold off til you findout what the new Fighter enhancements are going to do

Aesop

[Craggath]

My overall goal for this build is to have a tank who holds aggro through intimidate and takes very little damage due to high ac/saves. I will hold off on making this or a variation on this concept until I'm sure that it will be viable end game and when the cap goes up to 18 and 20.

[Angelus_dead]

My overall goal for this build is to have a tank who holds aggro through intimidate and takes very little damage due to high ac/saves. I will hold off on making this or a variation on this concept until I'm sure that it will be viable end game and when the cap goes up to 18 and 20.

FYI, you'd be better at that function by trading most of your fighter levels for more of monk or paladin. (Or ranger, and maybe even rogue)

[sephiroth1084]

As a warforged I don't have to worry about poison, disease, exhaustion, paralysis, enervation, etc. which allows me more manueverability in the equipment department. I won't have to worry about taking off my +6 con belt to put on my poison proof item.

With 3 paladin levels you don't need to worry about disease anyway. Also, as a paladin, you can use Neutralize Poison wands, which, while not sufficient for every situation, take care of most, and, in the situations that wanding isn't enough, a cleric will often have the spell prepared.

Exhaustion is easy enough to deal with using the paladin spell (at lvl 4), a clicky, potion, or wand. Paralysis, in most forms, is subject to a save, so with good saves, you just have to worry about rolling a '1'. And even in that event, most of those effects permit additional saves every X number of seconds, so you are likely to break at the first opportunity anyway. Not perfect, but this doesn't seem a strong enough reason to roll a WF.

Enervation sucks. No doubt about that, but it comes into play little enough, and there is equipment that you can get that will lessen the danger here. This seems a pretty good reason to go WF, though perhaps not for what you are aiming to do.

FYI, you'd be better at that function by trading most of your fighter levels for more of monk or paladin. (Or ranger, and maybe even rogue)

Only if he bumped his Wis up significantly.

I'd definitely go with Rogue levels over Monk levels if you aren't adding the Wis to AC.

Crag, if you want a defensive tank, I'd recommend a dwarven intimitank, or a ranger/monk combo that gets intimidate in there somehow (splash of fighter or rogue). I've no experience playing WF, but it seems to me that they just cannot attain as high an AC as other armor-wearers, due to losing a handful of AC from not being able to wear FP, and fall a little short of unarmed guys as well, due to the racial modifiers the WF don't get (+Dex, +Dex enhancements, a higher Wis score, etc...).

I have run 2 intimitanks to cap (human pal 12/ ftr 4, and a dwarf pal 12/ftr 4). I rarely have had to worry about poison (even less so on the dwarf), the only disease worth mentioning is mummy rot, and that can be dealt with, pass most saves on all but a '1', and only get enervated when I forget to put on my Silver Flame Amulet or take on too many beholders at once. Dwarf is definitely superior to human for this kind of build, though if you are set on taking monk levels, I'd go halfling.

[Aranticus]

With 3 paladin levels you don't need to worry about disease anyway. Also, as a paladin, you can use Neutralize Poison wands, which, while not sufficient for every situation, take care of most, and, in the situations that wanding isn't enough, a cleric will often have the spell prepared.

Exhaustion is easy enough to deal with using the paladin spell (at lvl 4), a clicky, potion, or wand. Paralysis, in most forms, is subject to a save, so with good saves, you just have to worry about rolling a '1'. And even in that event, most of those effects permit additional saves every X number of seconds, so you are likely to break at the first opportunity anyway. Not perfect, but this doesn't seem a strong enough reason to roll a WF.

Enervation sucks. No doubt about that, but it comes into play little enough, and there is equipment that you can get that will lessen the danger here. This seems a pretty good reason to go WF, though perhaps not for what you are aiming to do.



Only if he bumped his Wis up significantly.

I'd definitely go with Rogue levels over Monk levels if you aren't adding the Wis to AC.

Crag, if you want a defensive tank, I'd recommend a dwarven intimitank, or a ranger/monk combo that gets intimidate in there somehow (splash of fighter or rogue). I've no experience playing WF, but it seems to me that they just cannot attain as high an AC as other armor-wearers, due to losing a handful of AC from not being able to wear FP, and fall a little short of unarmed guys as well, due to the racial modifiers the WF don't get (+Dex, +Dex enhancements, a higher Wis score, etc...).

I have run 2 intimitanks to cap (human pal 12/ ftr 4, and a dwarf pal 12/ftr 4). I rarely have had to worry about poison (even less so on the dwarf), the only disease worth mentioning is mummy rot, and that can be dealt with, pass most saves on all but a '1', and only get enervated when I forget to put on my Silver Flame Amulet or take on too many beholders at once. Dwarf is definitely superior to human for this kind of build, though if you are set on taking monk levels, I'd go halfling.

prolly his main reason is for vod where wf tanks are so valuable. but with a low 50 ac, it is not going to be enough to tank sally

[Aesop]

prolly his main reason is for vod where wf tanks are so valuable. but with a low 50 ac, it is not going to be enough to tank sally

With better equipment he'd be better off.

Chaosguard +2
the rituals +2
Shroud Insight Weapon (-1 parry) +4

Pocket Ranger for 2 more
Pocket Paladin for 2-3 more

Recitation +2
Pocket Bard +4


so somewhere around 70ish in Raid Mode

I'd still change out the Monk for Rogue levels

Aesop

[Lifespawn]

but monk gives him saves and 2 free feats if he doesn't care about the umd no reason to take rogue

[maddmatt70]

prolly his main reason is for vod where wf tanks are so valuable. but with a low 50 ac, it is not going to be enough to tank sally

Says you. Anybody can tank sally. The only difference from one tank to another is how much healing is required for that tank. A nice thing about wf as we both know is a wf can be repaired by arcane reducing the amount of healing that is required from a cleric on said wf.

[Lifespawn]

Says you. Anybody can tank sally. The only difference from one tank to another is how much healing is required for that tank. A nice thing about wf as we both know is a wf can be repaired by arcane reducing the amount of healing that is required from a cleric on said wf.

the main reason wf is better tank is that curse doesn't affect their arcane healing