I'm Bored.. So I rant... Part 4 of ? Shroud Crafting!

[Impaqt]

Sorry for the Delay today folks.. COntrary to popular belief, I do indeed have a job and had stuff I needed to take care of this morning.


Yesterdays rant went over a lot better than expected, I thought I may have been a bit off base with some of my comments.. Or at least a little skewed twoards the Power gamer aspects, but stil only managed to generate one single detractor from my daily rant series.

That means one of two things....

I'm Really astute... My opinions do indeed reflect the masses.

or more Likely

People are having as much fun reading these as I am making them and simply dont want to see these degrade into any sort of flamefest that would cause me to have to discontinue the series.

Whether I'm right or wrong really has no bearing on these rants. They are indeed self admitted RANTS. and My goal with this series isnt to Bash Turbine or Create ill will. Its to provide a Distraction. I must say I am very pleased to see Eladrin posting a lot the past couple days... Maybe its because my Communication Rant struck a nerve.. Maybe its because Mod 8 Is indeed closer than we all believe and he feels it is indeed time to start leaking some info.. Maybe its just a eary coincidence......

Feel Free to make recomendations for my Future rants! I've got a couple more ideas in this warped head of mine, but am certanly open to suggestions!

So On to Part 4! The Shroud!!!!!!!!!!

Many folks have commented to me they would like me to be careful here.. Evidentally, some people beleive that the devs dont realize how unbalanced shroud weaponry and items are...... I thinks thats kinda funny as we already know many of our items we've constructed will be significantly less useful in Mod 8 with the FOcus shifting back to Undead and Specifically Dracoliches.. which are immune to Lighting damage (In PnP at least), and Highly resistanct to other forms of elemental damage. All our fancy extra damage, may be moot already.....

So no.. I'm not going to focus on the overpowered weapons at all..... Instead, I'm going right to the core of the Crafting issue IMO..... The fact that it is rediculously skewed twoards DPS.

Dont get me wrong.. The Extra Attribute points via the Exceptional Bonus' are quite nice... For people who Dual Weild and can afford to lose a little DPS off their DPS Weapon. ut overal, the craftables in this mod are WAY too focused on the DPS. What Casters, Tanks, Bards, or Rogues have as options here is sad.....

FOr people woried about AC, the +4 Insight is great..... But unlike other effects int he weaponry, It doesnt stack with the +1 and +2 bonus' available at the lower levels..... If TUrbine is going to continue to increas Mobs To hit ability, they need to give us more and easier ways to increase our AC. Peole should be relegated to Monk splash TWFing builds if they want the best AC in the game..... THe AC should of been +1,2,3 all stacking.

Guards...... Poor immpementation of the Guards.... You can have a Meger change to do 1d4 Elemental Damage to an attacker, or 10Hit Points(+ +1 Skill) Or WIzardy 6 or a Greater Resist Or Blindess Ward AND Disease Immunity.

How are those remotely similar in power?
(Yeah, the +5 to a Specific Saving throw kinda sucks too)

Thats low onthe totem pole though.. Guardsin this game are generally dismissed as useless due to reducilous amounts of mob hit ponts.

My Biggest gripe in creating Shroud items is the collasal disreagard for comparatively powerful Caster Weapons.

We can increase the damage of our 6th Level and Below Spells.

But wait! Theres more options right? Unfortunatly, not really...... and its actually worse than it sounds... Not only are we limited to 6th and lower... We have to choose a Specific elemental line to amplify!!!!!! Are you Kidding me with this??? I'm supposed to be excited about being able to make a Superior COmbustion 6 scepter? I've had one of those for 2 mods! My cleric is expected to make a Superior Devotion 6 Weapon? Gimme a break.... again, been there, done that.....

WHeres the Greater/Superior POTENCY?????????????

Wheres the Spell Penn????????

WHeres the Spell Focus??????

ANd for crying out loud, why are they limited to 6th Level Spells?????????? The devs do indeed realize we have l8 spells in the game right now right? and that VIII tier Potency and even Specific school amplification was completely forgoten about inthe regular loot tables right?????? At least of these items could go up to what we can actually cast they would be a little attractive. Insteqad we get a bunch of **** that we already have on random loot drops. Gah.. Boilsw my blood...

Hey, at least we can make our SUperior COmbustion 6 scepter have Radiance on it as well if we want to beat on mobs with it in out free time... Might as well since there is but a Single Dual tier effect that benefits a Caster in any way shape or form. Exostential Stalemate..... Really???? ONE item with a pathetically low benefit to cost ratio. an incredibly small chance to get spell points or hit points back if I get hit.....

Um.... If I get Hit..... So I'm supposed to put myself in harms way in order to maybe get Hit points OR spell Points back... MAYBE?????????? Wasnt this done like 3 Mods ago already????

The Shroud Crafting is just another example of TUrbines All or Nothing approach to the game.... ALL Melee/DPS Focus.. NOTHING Caster FOcused. ALL Craftable stuff.. NO Named Items..... bah.....

Yes yes... THere is the Spell Point Wearables.... Rather nice to be able to get an extra 150 spell points via Tier 2 and Tier 3... The WIzardry 6 is ok too.. But that gets trumped quickly in the game.... So all my newer Spell point items use a different Tier 1 effect on my casters.

Please Turbine, Revisit this travesty. GIve my casters something worth holding other than a +3 stat Item. ANd if Dragontouched Armor is similiar in it imbalance... Revisit it before its released.



Impaqt

[stockwizard5]

... checks list ... completed or in-work ...

Arcanes 12 Single, 0 Double
Divines: 6 Single, 2 Double
Melee: 0 Single, 16 Double

Looks like Impaqt has a valid point here.

[Velorn]

Well said...my friend...well said. Now where's my mass repair spells???

[Varr]

Said it in yesterdays post with more words, but for me crafting anyting as good as raid loot is a mistake to me and being able to craft things that are so much better than most raid loot is a travisty. This is now and will be the grandaddy of all the broken things in the game........and most are flavor things that are broken.........managable, not totaly game altering like the shroud crafted items.

[Turial]

Mineral 2 transmuting property was a bit much.

The guards could use a big boost in the damage they deal vs the current small amount and a % chance to activate.

Another good rant.

[Angelus_dead]

My Biggest gripe in creating Shroud items is the collasal disreagard for comparatively powerful Caster Weapons.

Casters get items to give hitpoints, a LOT of spellpoints (and UMD bonus), and +3 to their primary stat. Each of those needs only 12 large (unless your clothing item is also mineral2).

Warriors get items to give hitpoints (possibly mineral2) and also Mineral or Radiance weapons. Those weapons cost 24 large, including an inordinate proportion of scales.

So, casters do not really lose out here; they've got a similar amount of stuff they could want from the Shroud. In fact, their lack of a need to put 24 large into an item can be viewed as an advantage, because their stuff is cheaper. (Why, my fighter has a spare Essence of Cleansing in the bank, and nothing I'd want to build to make use of it. Casters don't have a problem find green steel clothing they'd like to have)

It's important to understand that availability of items for a class doesn't necessarily help that class. Those items may thereafter be considered part of the essential baseline, as all new challenges are built to assume you have them, making you no more effectively powerful than if they'd never been added (but those class members who can't get the item are nerfed from then on).

[Varr]

Nobody is loosing out...........casters are getting way to much, and melee are getting way way way to much.

[Randolf_Drake]

What the hell ever happened with taking Item creation feats and spending exp, gold, and materials to make your own unique magic items, or improving on them?

Oh, that wasnt implemented in the game because...

Right, we want people to farm for stuff that we make, and give them limited options so we don't have people losing control making anything their hearts desire.

Meh... PnP already had this solved, I don't want to run around for a month collecting stuff to make an item that I dont want. You can, I will stick with the Auction house for items that catch my fancy, since I only get scrolls and gems from chests, Raid, or otherwise.

[Impaqt]

So, casters do not really lose out here; they've got a similar amount of stuff they could want from the Shroud. In fact, their lack of a need to put 24 large into an item can be viewed as an advantage, because their stuff is cheaper. (Why, my fighter has a spare Essence of Cleansing in the bank, and nothing I'd want to build to make use of it. Casters don't have a problem find green steel clothing they'd like to have)

There is a Distinct difference between Lack of a Need and Lack of a Reason.

[frugal_gourmet]

What the hell ever happened with taking Item creation feats and spending exp, gold, and materials to make your own unique magic items, or improving on them?

Oh, that wasnt implemented in the game because...

Right, we want people to farm for stuff that we make, and give them limited options so we don't have people losing control making anything their hearts desire.

Meh... PnP already had this solved, I don't want to run around for a month collecting stuff to make an item that I dont want. You can, I will stick with the Auction house for items that catch my fancy, since I only get scrolls and gems from chests, Raid, or otherwise.

I can't even begin to imagine how that could succeed in an online game.

[Kistilan]

*nods* Short & Sweet. Nice post again.

Shroud Crafting absolutely bothers me. I came from a long line of SWG Crafters from 2003-06 & prior to that, Asheron's Call Tinkering. I know how crafting should work, and the current type of crafting available is a poor substitute.

On top of that, where is the magic in crafting your own weapon that's better than the Highly Regarded Sword of Shadows? Will I find an ancient footman's Dragonlance in mod 10, but in mod 11 be able to actually craft a Greater Footman's Dragonlance the following mod? The Titan Docent - awesome idea, could be tweaked -- but if I can *craft* a Shavarath Docent later out of the shroud, suddenly I've become a greater Artificer than Demons & Gods. How's that make any sense?

Bring crafting back with Justin Timberlake in 4 minutes to save our world. Check Asheron's Call (salvaging) and SWG (actually harvesting) for other forms of crafting that fall more into the line of a fantasy setting. I might not need to find hundreds of a specific ingredient, but that one eye of the beholder should be a good time to harvest to make a finger of death or disintegration wand at my caster level as opposed to running a million shroud runs for ingredients to make epic weapons that make obsolete all the "ancient relics" of raids past. (Yes, over-generalizing here, but it's silly how a fighter can craft a better weapon than the best magic-users in the world).

[Kistilan]

What the hell ever happened with taking Item creation feats and spending exp, gold, and materials to make your own unique magic items, or improving on them?

Oh, that wasnt implemented in the game because...

Right, we want people to farm for stuff that we make, and give them limited options so we don't have people losing control making anything their hearts desire.

Meh... PnP already had this solved, I don't want to run around for a month collecting stuff to make an item that I dont want. You can, I will stick with the Auction house for items that catch my fancy, since I only get scrolls and gems from chests, Raid, or otherwise.

To give credit where credit's due, we all know there's a ton more experience out there than we need to cap any character. I would love to see a caster take a level hit to craft an *epic* weapon & have to run back up to max level. This would certainly limit the power of weapons and the availability -- someone (even if it's just your alt) has to be willing to make a sacrifice in order to craft that truly special weapon. Also, plat farmers would have to continue to make new casters because at some point they would indeed run out of xp making & selling their windmill magic items.

I'm not sure about feats for crafting (as we're all feat-starved as it is in this game of uber D&D foes), but enhancement lines for those capable of crafting something would make sense.

[secondchance]

<waves hand at dev's (in jedi fanshion)>
you did not read this rant

you did not read how "unbalanced" the craftable weapons are

you will go back to work pn coding for new content

you will not nerf dwarf toughness

you saw nothing , you read nothing
....

**** you alandale I thought we talked about this

[gfunk]

Although I am a bit disapointed that I dont have as much to craft for my caster.. I'm also a bit happy about it. Also, casters are pretty powerful with the currently available gear. Maybe limiting crafting for casters was an attempt to balance this a bit more. Still, it would be nice to see some appropriate duel-shard crafting available for caster types...

[Pwesiela]

Wheres the Spell Penn????????

WHeres the Spell Focus??????

The spell focus.... Something I've been waiting for ever since they changed the enhancement system.

What about us casters who don't carry damaging spells? What is there to craft in order to boost my enchantment abilities?

Aes carries 4, count them, damage spells. I took the fire/ice line in enhancements in order to open up the charisma and spell pen lines. The best item out there is the Dreamspitter, which boosts my enchantments by 2. So the best item is several mods old, and I can't make better...

[Hafeal]

I agree, I agree.

Let me add that for casual gamers, the Shroud "crafting" system is really, well, laughable. I am all for power gamers getting their well earned loot for the time they put in.

The low-hanging fruit for a casual gamer was the possible random chance, no matter how small, for a raid item. With the shroud a casual gamer is almost certain NEVER to get such an item.

And for ALL players you need to run Shroud through completion successfully at least 12+ times - talk about burning players out on content? Well, I guess if you can't get more content out quicker, I guess grinding choices prevail.

Add in the over-powering nature of these "crafted" items and you forcibly increase the gap between the casual players and the power-gamers. I don't think this is a healthy dynamic for the long term health of the game I love to play but, eh, I guess I don't own the company either.

[Randolf_Drake]

To give credit where credit's due, we all know there's a ton more experience out there than we need to cap any character. I would love to see a caster take a level hit to craft an *epic* weapon & have to run back up to max level. This would certainly limit the power of weapons and the availability -- someone (even if it's just your alt) has to be willing to make a sacrifice in order to craft that truly special weapon. Also, plat farmers would have to continue to make new casters because at some point they would indeed run out of xp making & selling their windmill magic items.

I'm not sure about feats for crafting (as we're all feat-starved as it is in this game of uber D&D foes), but enhancement lines for those capable of crafting something would make sense.

I never liked enhancements. The escalating power level with enhancements in the game caused the DC40 traps, extreamly high AC critters, etc...

Item creation Wizards would not be hard to make if the feats were available since they would be able to take them as "extra" feats at 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, etc...

Sure, you would see some power coming down from some casters, but the Sorcs already got the power here anyways, there is no argument to be made against that I don't think.

Everytime they make something new, and implement something for someone to attain, I always just want to be able to craft things I want for myself using the system that I do in PnP. The rules already in the PnP game prevent players from creating things beyond their level, as well as have added requirments of materials, such as masterworked weapons, items, and whatnot that are needed in addition to the spells going into the items.

I would just rather come up with something on my own in this game than spend months aquiring items to create something that isnt going to do my much more good than what I have now.

There is also endless potential to this system, where there is limits on what they are going to allow with this crappy find these items to craft this thing... but you are not really crafting it at all, you are simply putting the item in something, and it does the work.

Anywho, here is hoping a timemachine is made so they can go back and make this game more like dungeons and dragons.

[Bradik_Losdar]

Well written (again).

As the major subject of this rant was the lack of caster double shard upgrades and the small amount of usefulness with the one truely beneficial to casters - the Stalemate double upgrade, I have to also point out how restricted even this is...

It is it completely biased for Sorcs (not wizards, clerics, rangers, etc)

How you say?

The only double upgrade path that will achieve this is the Charisma bonus one. So as any other caster class, I have to decide if a pathetic %1 chance of this going off when I am hit to gain +15 sp and/or hp is worth giving up a major bonus to another more useful stat (like say Int for wizards) - - at the cost of an ADDITIONAL 12 large ingredients I might add.

Just not worth it. Unless your a Sorc that is.

So as Impaqt had put so well - why is every single caster effect severely limited to very specific areas when the melee crafting is so wide open by comparasion?

I sure would have liked to have had an option to build a Superior Potency 8 effect on my scepter...

[TFPAQ]

I agree, I agree.

Let me add that for casual gamers, the Shroud "crafting" system is really, well, laughable. I am all for power gamers getting their well earned loot for the time they put in.

The low-hanging fruit for a casual gamer was the possible random chance, no matter how small, for a raid item. With the shroud a casual gamer is almost certain NEVER to get such an item.

And for ALL players you need to run Shroud through completion successfully at least 12+ times - talk about burning players out on content? Well, I guess if you can't get more content out quicker, I guess grinding choices prevail.

Add in the over-powering nature of these "crafted" items and you forcibly increase the gap between the casual players and the power-gamers. I don't think this is a healthy dynamic for the long term health of the game I love to play but, eh, I guess I don't own the company either.

... because you must be wrong. We were promised that DDO wasn't going to be a grind fest, remember?...

(sarcasm off ...)

[Solmage]

Um.... If I get Hit..... So I'm supposed to put myself in harms way in order to maybe get Hit points OR spell Points back... MAYBE?????????? Wasnt this done like 3 Mods ago already????

Actually, it's a lot worse. The necklace from the DQ has a MUCH MUCH higher proc rate than this travesty that requires an extra 12 larges to create an essentially useless property.

I love my DQ necklace on my caster - I keep switching between it, beholder optics, and silver flame necklace, depending on what is best at the time. I'm not sure I would waste 1 single scale on the existing concordant opposition II however.

(Tip: Torc + bramble-casters = happy caster when surrounded by archers )

However, this is not just limited to the shroud you know. Enhancements, items in general - the dearth of stuff for casters is abysmal. Where are our greater and superior disintegration focus items? Or spell-school instead of spell-related, like say evocation?

Also, just consider this: How many people would be outraged if fighters and barbarians had the same enhancements? Yet in spite of some people mentioning this since day one of the new enhancements, sorcerers and wizards have exactly that, because...?
Where are the wizard school specialization enhancements? How about Arcane Potency enhancements instead of a per-element thing like sorcerers get - after all, isn't their strength supposed to be to be able to switch to the actual spell that's best for the situation? Being tied to a certain element through enhancements kind of defeats this, doesn't it?

Whoops. Seems I made my very own rant. Heh. Sorry for the small derail. Anyway, In short, I agree with your shroud points