Tempest Battlecaster

[Gabrion]

Just looking for early opinions on a mod9 build. The theme is the tried and true WF battlecaster - a self buffing melee arcane. The twist from some of the old THF builds is to try and make this guy a TWF build with tempest. Some crunch:

Sorc 12/Ranger 6/Fighter 2

STR: 18 (36 buffed endgame)
DEX: 15 (Use +2 tome to get 17 for GTWF)
CON: 16 (28 buffed endgame)
INT: 8
WIS: 6
CHA: 8

Feats:
Well, everything needed for Tempest and then GTWF. Extend Spell also, then fill the rest with toughness.

Like any battlecaster the idea is to keep self buffed and use DP clickies to set BAB=HD. Self heals from reconstruct. Didn't calculate HP, but my current sorc 14/fighter 2 has 400 hp, so it should be a good chunk higher than that with more d8s replacing d4s in this build.

One thing I question is the inclusion of two levels of fighter to round the build out. I toyed with monk but ultimately I don't like the weapon limitations - otherwise the two bonus feats would be perfect and the floating +2 STR, +2 CON, or attack speed boost would be nice. Fighter offers two feats as well, a constant +1 STR, and some good enhancements like attack speed boost.

Anyway, thoughts?

[Aspenor]

Personally I'd go with the monk instead of fighter. I dont see what you mean by limiting your weapon choices, you'd only lose 1 BAB using any weapon of your choosing.

One thing you might want is the +1 str from fighter strength, and access to the low level toughness enhancement. That's a build decision of your own, though.

FYI - a multiclassed monk can use any weapon assuming he has a class that has proficiency, he just can't be in stance and loses flurry of blows when using a non-monk weapon.

[Gabrion]

Ya I know the monk can use the other weapons, but a big draw of that class to me is the stances (especially if I'm just dipping two levels). Evasion is good two, but my reflex save wont exactly be epic.

I toyed around with other options as well - two more rangers levels (don't get much other than 2nd level spells, which dont thrill me), or a two level dip in another class. Almost surprisingly a bard dip wouldn't be out of line either. Access to UMD and a limited number of songs giving me +2 dmg isn't tiny, plus the chant spell for +1 attack and a few more spell points. With the steep tempest requirments though, the fighter bonus feats are real handy.

[llevenbaxx]

Looks like a pretty solid build. Well as solid as Gish characters can be in this game. Have a very similar build Im working on at the moment. At current cap I was planning on going to rgr6/wiz6/ftr4.

Was primarily worried about hps, so was planning on going more melee with with the build(ftr8/rgr6/wiz6). If I can get near 400 with all those wiz levels I may end up with the same level breakdown as you... but with wiz levels. Would really like to have Reconstruct but more important to me is having a viable melee presence.

Is having reconstruct(at least from scrolls) pretty much an ultimate factor in WF melee/battlecaster viability?

Im starting to lean twards yes, you?

EDIT
Also kinda wondering if you were going to go for any kind of AC worth mentioning. Used a +2 int tome just in case I could work CE into the build at some point but with the prereqs for tempest its pretty rough, if I decide to go 12 wiz it will prolly not be worth it, just curious.

[fluffi]

I have a wf 1barb/7wiz build at the moment and is very fun. I use +1 Holy greatsword of right. I'm perm hasted and displaced. I chose wiz for earlier spells and versitility. I know lower sp, but currently its enough for fighting in fw. I'm probably going to go 11 wiz for reconstruct then put the rest (4 at present) into barb for extra con, 2nd tough enhancement and 32extra level hp. Since thats 3 levels away, I still could go 15 wiz.
Starting stats
Str = 18
dex = 10
con = 16
int = 15
level points into strength.
I'm usually at the top or 2nd of kills in a standard group with 1 or 2 other melees which to me means that the build is currently working and my BAB deficiencies has not yet manifested itself

[Gabrion]

Is having reconstruct(at least from scrolls) pretty much an ultimate factor in WF melee/battlecaster viability?

Im starting to lean twards yes, you?

Personally I wouldnt play the concept without reconstruct (the actual spell, not scrolls). This is after playing a pure melee sorc 14/fighter 2 though. Honestly you don't need more melee levels to make yourself durable - you just need to be able to insta-heal yourself for all your HP. For instance on that guy I sit at just over 400HP, but my reconstruct (even fully talented and with superior potency VI item) only hits me for 270 or something like that. Even without more melee levels (which he should actually have - past sorc 12 was a waste), I dont feel low on HP. If anything the pool is partially wasted.

EDIT
Also kinda wondering if you were going to go for any kind of AC worth mentioning. Used a +2 int tome just in case I could work CE into the build at some point but with the prereqs for tempest its pretty rough, if I decide to go 12 wiz it will prolly not be worth it, just curious.

On the above mentioned build I didnt bother, but for a quasi-DEX based it might at least be an option. I might keep an AC gear set around for situations (soloing rep maybe?), but most of the time I think stoneskin+displacement+self healing is defense enough.

[llevenbaxx]

When do you plan on taking what levels of each class?

I figured on getting Tempest openned up by level10 or so. Already took one level of ftr and will likily take the 2nd at level9 to make sure I get Imp crit asap. So at current cap I think Im going to be looking at rgr6/wiz8/ftr2. Should be nice for stonskin and FW out of the 4th level.

BaseStats @ level7(rgr4/wiz2/ftr1)
19(w/+1tome&+1level up)all level ups
17(w/+2tome) GTWF also
16(w/+1tome) 24 at finish - you putting any level ups in con or making a con item?
9(w/+1tome) little extra sp
13(+2tome) skill points/sp/possibly CE
6 i aint perdy

Normally dont dump so much into a single character but it really makes a difference imo for less that min/max builds.

Did you stick with composite plating too then?

[EKKM]

Maybe a silly noob question, but why are you starting with 8 CHA? It looks like all levels ups are going to STR so its +2-3 from enhancements, +6 item = 16-17 at cap, more with tomes. It means you will be able to cast the highest level spells at any point in game with the best CHA item you can get but spell points will be very low. I also assume there woud be little no save based spells taken. I guess you are only using the spells for self buffs?

Not critisizing, just curious.

[Gabrion]

When do you plan on taking what levels of each class?

Honestly I'm not sure. The problem is that the build isn't complete without lvl 12 sorc, lvl 6 ranger, and GTWF. Getting those things (all at the same time) wont be possible till mod9, at which point the cap will be 20 so the level order will be less important. For me personally there's also the fact that I don't plan to power level a toon (actually I'm playing WoW primarily right now so who knows if this build will ever be more than theory for me) so I may not have to worry about waiting at the current cap.

If I did level to 16 before mod9 though, I think I would start with a level of ranger (skill points at lvl 1), then go sorc till I got some of the buff I want (lvl 8 or 9), then a few more ranger levels to toughen me up. Prolly save the last level for ranger as well for skill point distribution (sorc lvls put skills in UMD, then be able to round out concentration with ranger lvls). Either way I would make sure to have 6 ranger levels pre mod9 so that leveling to 18 I could grab GTWF.

Another options is to only take 8 sorc levels and grab the 2 levels of fighter under the current cap (or 9 sorc 1 fighter?). The idea here would be to grab GTWF under the current cap via fighter bonus feat at lvl 16. If you arent going to get reconstruct anyway, this might actually be the best option.

Already took one level of ftr and will likily take the 2nd at level9 to make sure I get Imp crit asap.

Check out my above comment. Since leveling is a short part of most careers, it doesn't matter how quick you get improved crit. On the other hand, if you plan to seriously level this guy, you might want GTWF pre xpac. After all, who knows how long 16 will be the cap - could easily be another 6 months.

BaseStats @ level7(rgr4/wiz2/ftr1)
19(w/+1tome&+1level up)all level ups
17(w/+2tome) GTWF also
16(w/+1tome) 24 at finish - you putting any level ups in con or making a con item?
9(w/+1tome) little extra sp
13(+2tome) skill points/sp/possibly CE
6 i aint perdy

pretty much the same, and for wizzies it's nice you can prioritize INT to get a few more skill points I guess.

Normally dont dump so much into a single character but it really makes a difference imo for less that min/max builds.

Well especially for a character like this, planning is key. Play a barb 16 with max STR/CON and you can always salvage something out of it. Mess up a melee caster and you can have a wasted character slot...

Did you stick with composite plating too then?

Ya

Maybe a silly noob question, but why are you starting with 8 CHA? It looks like all levels ups are going to STR so its +2-3 from enhancements, +6 item = 16-17 at cap, more with tomes. It means you will be able to cast the highest level spells at any point in game with the best CHA item you can get but spell points will be very low. I also assume there woud be little no save based spells taken. I guess you are only using the spells for self buffs?

Not critisizing, just curious.

Ya the idea is dump CHA because you play like a fighter, not a caster. So exactly right on the save spells - these builds dont cast them. High CHA doesn't give a ton of SP either, and even if it gave more you don't need as large of a mana pool as regular casters either (especially with the torc and a T3 existential stalemate item [whatever they are called]).

[muffinlad]

Ok....if you are not casting spells....why take 12 levels of sorc? I don't see the 8 char. either... -2/+2 tome and +6 item lets you cast level 4 spells, so why not reduce the sorc levels? Are you doing this purely to read re-con scrolls?

muffinbaffle

[Gabrion]

Ok....if you are not casting spells....why take 12 levels of sorc? I don't see the 8 char. either... -2/+2 tome and +6 item lets you cast level 4 spells, so why not reduce the sorc levels? Are you doing this purely to read re-con scrolls?

muffinbaffle

Starting at 8 CHA it is pretty easy to get it high enough to cast any spells you will have access to with 12 sorc levels. The reason for that specific cutoff for casting levels is indeed reconstruct. Arcane casters also have some good melee buffs though...

Edit: There was no mention made of not casting spells - just not casting spells that have saves.

[richieelias27]

the maximum CHA you will ever have if you started with 8 is 16(18 with +2 tome) unless you put points into it while leveling, which I assume you are not planning on since you maxed STR and came close to maxing CON.

While this does allow you to cast your max level and will look great on paper, you have to consider item level requirements and the what level your sorc has to be before taking CHA enhancements. Most likely if you want to be worth anything at all from levels 1-15 you will have to take your sorc levels after taking all of your ranger levels.

This sort of forced progression will make you somewhat worthless between levels 9ish until about 12 when you get a very weak firewall. In fact you wont even have reconstruct unscrolled until at the very earliest level 18 (unless you put off having tempest until 18. One or the other.)

Honestly, is that sort of grind with an uneffective character really worth being able to cast unscrolled reconstruct on yourself for your last two levels? Not to mention you wouldnt be all that much more powerful in melee than someone that went fighter1/wiz19. In fact you would probably be alot less powerful depending on what level 9 spells they get (shapeshift spells might be in with the introduction of druids?).

In other words, its a serious mistake to build a character and only think about the last level. What you're spending on potions and scrolls from levels 1-17 will be much MUCH more expensive than what you save being able to cast reconstruct at levels 18-20.

Just a warning that leveling this character is going to be a serious PITA

[richieelias27]

Also keep in mind that at end game you will be attacking alot less per round than a full ranger and possibly also every other full BAB class with TWF feats due to your maximum BAB of 14 at level 20. Unless of course you never ever ever run out of DP clickies and have the micromanagement capacity to keep DP up constantly.

[Gabrion]

the maximum CHA you will ever have if you started with 8 is 16(18 with +2 tome) unless you put points into it while leveling, which I assume you are not planning on since you maxed STR and came close to maxing CON.

While this does allow you to cast your max level and will look great on paper, you have to consider item level requirements and the what level your sorc has to be before taking CHA enhancements. Most likely if you want to be worth anything at all from levels 1-15 you will have to take your sorc levels after taking all of your ranger levels.

This sort of forced progression will make you somewhat worthless between levels 9ish until about 12 when you get a very weak firewall. In fact you wont even have reconstruct unscrolled until at the very earliest level 18 (unless you put off having tempest until 18. One or the other.)

Honestly, is that sort of grind with an uneffective character really worth being able to cast unscrolled reconstruct on yourself for your last two levels? Not to mention you wouldnt be all that much more powerful in melee than someone that went fighter1/wiz19. In fact you would probably be alot less powerful depending on what level 9 spells they get (shapeshift spells might be in with the introduction of druids?).

In other words, its a serious mistake to build a character and only think about the last level. What you're spending on potions and scrolls from levels 1-17 will be much MUCH more expensive than what you save being able to cast reconstruct at levels 18-20.

Just a warning that leveling this character is going to be a serious PITA

While I appreciate the comments I think you overlook a few things.

The CHA really, really isn't a problem. Starting at 8 with a +1 tome, putting the points in the sorc enhancements, and using items will allow you to keep your cha ahead of your spells all the time, even if you start with a level of ranger and then take sorc all the way to 8. Even without wasting the tome you can do it with the right items.

Having leveled a melee arcane already, I can vouch for the fact that it is not nearly as hard as it might seem. Leveling that character I was afraid I would find myself useless, but having access to self healing and buffs early on actually makes it a breeze. Fact is, having a high STR score, enough HP, self-buffs (including scrolling stuff when needed), and self healing will make the character very playable. And no, in the grad scheme of thing it does not cost very much to carry around low level consumables.

Blur early on is a helpful buff and as is resist energy (although you are admittedly a level behind the curve getting each level of the spell). Once you get haste (lvl 7) and displacement (lvl 8) and scrolls of stoneskin, you are better than pretty much any tank at that level.

During leveling BAB can be a small issue, but that's one reason you will be fighting with a THW rather than TWF. At end game you are wrong about not having as many attacks as other fighter types. Yes I keep one action bar full of DP clickies. Yes they are all on the same item slot (gogs) and almost all of them are 5x/rest. No it is not hard to "micromanage" by clicking to rebuff every 45 seconds. The laziness of players in this game compared to others I have played is amazing some times.

Even if it is slightly harder to level this sort of character (which it isn't, I've done it), your suggestion that this should weigh more heavily than the end-game abilities of the character is strange indeed. In a game where leveling is a relatively short part of a character's career, while grinding end game raids is a very large part due to the slow introduction of new content, I think it makes a lot of sense to plan for the end.

[muffinlad]

Starting at 8 CHA it is pretty easy to get it high enough to cast any spells you will have access to with 12 sorc levels. The reason for that specific cutoff for casting levels is indeed reconstruct. Arcane casters also have some good melee buffs though...

Edit: There was no mention made of not casting spells - just not casting spells that have saves.

Re-read that and saw what I was missing regarding save spells. Got it.

Understand where you are coming from now.

muffinreading4DWin.