Question for all you Shroud leaders out there...

[juniorpfactors]

You can use shield wand level 10 with umd blurr the same haste pots rage pots , so you basicelly put 5 levels of wizard on a ranger for extended displacement people never use displacement or almost in most raids wich are the most difficult quests .U.M.D.

So if i have a choice between you and pretty much any other melees ill take the others ,nothing personnal just because id rather do a 45 minutes shroud than a 60 minutes shroud because of limited time to play that means i get 5 shrouds done instead of 4 in the same amount of time.

Why dont barbs put 5 level of wizards or fighters or rogues or clerics if its such a great gain and a great build how comes theres not another one on the whole server ?

Originally Posted by CSFurious
"why are you wasting all of that quality loot on your gimpy-arse arcane archer build?"

then let you come because:

1) the servers are dead

2) you must be sort of good to level that gimpy-arse character to cap & acquire that wasted loot.

So yeah its a lot of gear on a build that most wouldnt build so dont be offended when you have a unique build on a server and you get denied.Because for a couple people when looking at lfm panel when they want a ranger they want dps and hp for the big fight if im going to give a tanking or ranger spot id rather have a ranger that seems more of a melee build rogue ranger pally for example .

Just my 2 copper.

gax would have never taken him, he is a shroud worry wart, i think he has taken to many ddoors in part 2 with bad pugs LOL
gax still takes em to 4 corners lol

jrp

[gaxpar]

your right bro i dont know what a wart is but if you say so ill assume myself bro

[Inspire]

your right bro i dont know what a wart is but if you say so ill assume myself bro

9 Dictionary results for: Wart

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
wart /wɔrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[wawrt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–Noun

1. a small, often hard, abnormal elevation on the skin, usually caused by a papomavirus.
2. any small protuberance, as on the surface of certain plants, the skin of certain animals, etc.
3. any unattractive detrimental feature or aspect: The biography presents the full story of the prime minister's political career, warts and all.
4. venereal wart.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Origin: bef. 900; ME; OE wearte; c. G Warze, ON varta; akin to L verrūca wart]

—Related forms
warted, adjective
wartless, adjective

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Wart


!

[stockwizard5]

Not to derail but Gax has an important point on many of these "self buffing" multi-class builds. That point of course is they suck Investing multiple levels to "self-buff" is really "self-gimping" because:

A) UMD is Better, Longer, and Wider or
B) One Level Buys Everything or
C) Clickies/Gear and
D) For Raiding We Have a PARTY

Want to know why "pug" DPS is horrible ... here is one major cause.

[CSFurious]

bards & wizards will cast most of those buffs on you

i want a pure ranger or ranger that is not multi-classed with that much wizard

Heh

Ranger/wizard doesn't mean arcane archer... Ranger/wizard means TWF with favored enemies AND self-cast shield, blur, haste, displacement, rage.

[Thrudh]

Heh.... I recognize a couple of Gaxpar's characters... He's already on my DNP list...

I think I got into a conversation with him back when he denied this same 11/5 ranger/wizard we're talking about from a normal DQ1 run because and I quote... "You're a gimp". He denied a 16th level character on a NORMAL DQ1 flagging run... He's really not very nice (maybe he was having a bad day)



I don't get into arguments anymore in the game about it... (Instead, I guess, I come here!!) Anyone who has run with Hasenpfeffer knows he's no gimp...

What's interesting is that I've run with some of Gaxpar's OTHER characters (didn't realize it was the same person) and he's a decent player (I was running my plain jane 16 wizard - I guess he's able to comprehend that build and let me in the group).

I'm not sure why he's so opposed to multi-class builds though...

Just think it through Gax....

What does a 16th level ranger have over a 11/5 ranger/wizard?

• He has +1 AC of barkskin (You get that at 12)
• He has +1 Favored Enemy damage (you get that at 13)
• He has 4th level spells (you get that at 14 and 15) - Freedom of Movement is nice
• He has another favored enemy (THIS is the big one)

4 favored enemies instead of 3 and an extra +3 damage on all favored enemies... That's pretty big... It was a tough decision to give that up.

So what do I get in exchange for that fourth favored enemy?

• Two free meta-magic feats
• (Maximize works with my healing dragonmarks -doubles their power)
• (Free Extend is nice for my ranger and wizard spells)
  
• Self-cast Shield (Kind of hard for pure rangers to get the UMD for 10th level shield wands, and wands are a pain to use in battle anyway)
• Self-cast Blur (not that big, most casters cast it on the whole party)
• Self-cast Haste (affects multiple people, lasts twice as long as a potion)
• Self-cast Rage (affects multiple people, lasts twice as long as a potion)
  
• Ability to use Greater Heroism, True Seeing, Fire Shield, Dimension Door scrolls
• Ability to use Stoneskin wands, remove curse wands (used to be a big deal before they changed potions)
  
• And finally, Self-cast Displacement... This is huge...

You're insane if you think 50% miss change is worthless... It doesn't work against the raid bosses, but it still makes a big difference in the end-game quests and raids... I require much less healing in the Vale quests and in the Shroud and Hound than your typical melee while still dealing out high DPS (If you believe a 16th level ranger with two Mineral II weapons can deal out high damage against a favored enemy, then realize that I'm hitting for the same damage -3)

So maybe 90-95% of the DPS, 50% of the healing (oh, wait I can heal myself with dragonmarks - so 90-95% of the DPS, 0% of the healing)

Beholder comes out in Hounds? All the other tanks lose their buffs, and the casters are too busy to rebuff... Me, I have shield, haste, and displacement back up in seconds (my haste hits the tanks next to me as well). My dragonmark heals on my fellow tanks will save them from the mind-blast stun...

Is it the ultimate build? Nope... but it ain't gimp... The PUG runs I'm in don't wipe... I can solo either elemental in Part 2... Not I'll do all the damage, and maybe the bard can come along and heal me if needed... I can heal myself... It's more... You 11 take the rest... I got the elemental...

Since I recently finished my second mineral II, I could probably solo the devil too... Maybe I can find a group to let me give it a try...

Why dont barbs put 5 level of wizards or fighters or rogues or clerics if its such a great gain and a great build how comes theres not another one on the whole server ?

Barbarians get Crit Rage I and II at 12 and 14... Rogues give up their 12th level enhancements (Assasin, Acrobat), Clerics... duh... Fighter/wizard could work...

Not sure why I see very few ranger/wizards or fighter/wizards... It only became a good build when the cap was raised to 16... At level 14 cap, 9/5 is a gimp ranger, 11/3 isn't worth much...

Displacement and Haste make the build (plus, in this case, as a hobbit with Dragonmarks, the free Maximize feat at level 5 wiz was huge too). It's only since 11/5 has become possible, that this build has become so good (in my eyes)

Look, you don't want me... no worries... I think you don't really understand the mechanics behind this game, and the power of multi-classing, but hey, it's all good...

[Thrudh]

Not to derail but Gax has an important point on many of these "self buffing" multi-class builds. That point of course is they suck Investing multiple levels to "self-buff" is really "self-gimping" because:

A) UMD is Better, Longer, and Wider or
B) One Level Buys Everything or
C) Clickies/Gear and
D) For Raiding We Have a PARTY

Want to know why "pug" DPS is horrible ... here is one major cause.

This is a good point.... A good party of min/maxers is better than a party of self-reliant characters... A barbarian can max out his DPS, and rely on the cleric to heal him... He's pretty gimp on his own... He really can't do any tough quests without a cleric, but the assumption is that there will always be a cleric to heal him...

Now it's true that a multi-class character can be gimped if they try to do too much... I believe it takes a skillful player to build a GOOD multi-class character that doesn't gut the core class...

I've already detailed why rangers can stop at 11th level, and not gimp themselves... Barbarians can stop at 14 and pick up two other levels of something with ZERO impact on their DPS... They lose like 1 extra rage and 1 uncanny dodge... that's it... Instead they could get two levels of rogue for evasion, or two levels of fighter for feats, or two levels of ranger for Bow Strength and free TWF, etc., etc., etc.

There are a lot of GOOD Multi-class builds out there that could actually be considered stronger than the pure version... DDO front-loads a lot of classes... You guys don't consider a fighter who takes two levels of paladin for the saves a gimp do ya??

Nope...

Now... I'm cutting a lot deeper than normal... Instead of splashing 1 or 2 or 3 levels, I've splashed 5... but again, I've detailed how I didn't cut too deep into the ranger's core abilities... The ranger gets 90% of his abilities by 11th level... Unlike a barbarian who needs 14 levels to get his major class abilities.

In a 16th level game, I have to decide if the benefit of another class is worth that 10% of ranger power I'm giving up... I detailed why I thought it was....

1 level of rogue for UMD might have been a better choice... UMD is huge...

But I went with the wizard, one to try something different, and two because on paper, the synergies looked real good... I get almost all the same benefits I would have gotten from UMD... plus some more...

Ranger Devotion enhancements and Wizard Maximize are a very nice combo for my dragonmarks... I run quests all the time without a cleric... because I don't need one (unlike the pure 16th level barbarian, who may do more DPS than me, but he NEEDS a cleric). There are times, even in a party with a cleric, where people get split up, or there's a lot going on, and I jump in and help the cleric heal...

Displacement is the big one though... My barbarian rarely gets displaced in the parties he's in... Casters do not throw it out very often... (My wizard does though, since I know how powerful it is). Being able to self-cast displacement is a huge benefit...

And my DPS barely suffers at all....

Stockwizard... ask around in your guild... I've run a few raids with Maelstrom... you guys are elite.

Sure, first glance.. ranger/wizard? What? But ask some of your guildmates if Hasenpfeffer is a gimp...

Maybe next time you see a strange build, you won't dismiss it out of hand...

[Angelus_dead]

What does a 16th level ranger have over a 11/5 ranger/wizard?

There's also +1 Ram's Might damage.

You're insane if you think 50% miss change is worthless...

You're insane if you think Displacement won't be cast on you by Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards. Nearly all of the advantages you list could (and should) be provided by teamwork.

Beholder comes out in Hounds? All the other tanks lose their buffs, and the casters are too busy to rebuff... Me, I have shield, haste, and displacement back up in seconds

Not with Madstone Rage you don't. And if you're not using Madstone, then that's another -2 damage / -4 attack / -64 hp you have below a pure ranger.

[Thrudh]

There's also +1 Ram's Might damage.

Good point... so it's +1/+4 less damage per swing (everything/favored enemy).. That's not huge, but it's not small either...

You're insane if you think Displacement won't be cast on you by Wizards, Sorcerers, and Bards. Nearly all of the advantages you list could (and should) be provided by teamwork.

Displacement never gets cast in a PUG... Maybe Guild runs, people are smart enough to use it a lot... but my barbarian gets it cast on him maybe 2% of the time in PUGs.

Haste and Blur and most of the time Rage, yes..

However, sometimes you get debuffed, sometimes you get split up (when I'm fighting my lieutenant in Part 2 of the Shroud, I can keep my haste and displacement going without a caster being around).

I wonder if we'll ever see a raid where debuffing happens all the time... Be interesting to see how the min/maxers do in a raid like that... It sometimes happens in Hound now... Beholder comes out, all buffs gone... Mine are back up pretty quick... Too bad for the other melees (actually if there's no wizard on our side, I'll cast haste and displacement on them too)

Not with Madstone Rage you don't. And if you're not using Madstone, then that's another -2 damage / -4 attack / -64 hp you have below a pure ranger.

Actually, I use dual w/p in Hound, so DPS doesn't matter at all... So actually in there, I'm probably better than a pure ranger with my self-cast spells.

[Thrudh]

P.S. Thanks a lot you bastages... Now I gotta stay late tonight to finish all this work on my desk that I've been neglecting while posting my novels....

[Pyromaniac]

If there's a strange build, then I check the player name and the guild tag. I'll also ask other people in the group if they know a specific player that is asking to join. That gives me a certain confidence level of the ability of the player.

Frankly I've clericed way too many pug shroud runs where part 4 is taking up to 5 rounds. So I'm getting much more picky than I've been historically.

So my preference is towards anything other than monk, a paladin I don't know or some sort of strange build from an unknown guild. If its a strong group, then traditionally lower DPS/crazy build toons can be brought in.

The problem is that I'm more than tired of having to pop mana pots on my clerics because players will not bring something that can hit the Pit Fiend to the quest.

[stockwizard5]

Stockwizard... ask around in your guild... I've run a few raids with Maelstrom... you guys are elite.

Dude, I know who you are - and you have run more than "a few"

That said you detailed why you don't think Ranger 12-16 is all that great. Let me grant you that point for the sake of discussion. Now explain how 5 wizard compares to levels of fighter or rogue or pally or ... This is were I think your arguement suffers a serious breakdown.

ps: Shroud Displacement clicky is also available.

pps: The point is multi-classing more than one level for "self-buffing" is gimped, not multi-classing in general which offers some great trade-offs.

[Bunker]

Good Points
There is no arguing when it comes to the numbers game. So anyone that can prove a point of what is gained and what is lost thru the numbers of ddo makes good points.

Bad Points
There is no sense in trying to tell a player how good or bad HIS build is if you have never played it. Also to say that a build is bad based on the cover instead of knowing anything about the player. Stats are not everything.

Pettiness
And of course there still is the LFM to which this thread derived from. The Leaders whom will pass up players purely based on thier idea of a perfect group. Passing up a great player cause you think that thier build is just WACK.

Bottom Line
No matter whether good, bad, or just plain petty, each leader can do as they please. Hence the ability of leadership. Thrudh, if you feel like you have to explain yourself to anyone to prove you can hang with them, they are not worth the trouble to hang with.

[Thrudh]

That said you detailed why you don't think Ranger 12-16 is all that great. Let me grant you that point for the sake of discussion. Now explain how 5 wizard compares to levels of fighter or rogue or pally or ... This is were I think your arguement suffers a serious breakdown.

Hmm... okay I can see your point... a 15/1 ranger/rogue with high UMD would probably be "better" than a 11/5 ranger/wizard...

Or a couple of fighter levels for some good feats...

You're probably right.... The build isn't the best possible ranger/xxxx combo... I'll admit that a lot of my wizard abilities are redundant in a good group (but I'm not always in a good group)

I think it's a solo/PUG build that's still strong enough to handle end-game content...

(And it's fun to play)

P.S. The point of the OP wasn't my build.... I know my build is strange... I was just amazed that a tell stating "Hey, I got dual w/p and dual mineral II - you can let me in" didn't work... and that he left me hanging for 20 minutes with no decline or tell...



Now back to work!!!!

[Pyromaniac]

Pettiness
And of course there still is the LFM to which this thread derived from. The Leaders whom will pass up players purely based on thier idea of a perfect group. Passing up a great player cause you think that thier build is just WACK.

Put me in the petty column cause I don't want to spend excessive resources carrying sub-optimal builds that I don't know. I don't need the perfect group, but there's a limit to how many sub-optimal toons one can have in a group. If they're known good players its not an issue...and typically if they have the gear the OP stated that would be good enough for me to invite.

[Deathseeker]

Put me in the petty column cause I don't want to spend excessive resources carrying sub-optimal builds that I don't know. I don't need the perfect group, but there's a limit to how many sub-optimal toons one can have in a group. If they're known good players its not an issue...and typically if they have the gear the OP stated that would be good enough for me to invite.

I dont get it...gear and player outrank build any day. Its not even close. The nuanced differences between the 11/5 rgr/wiz build below that would be rejected (as an example) vs the pure ranger that would be accepted are TINY in comparison to things like:

A player who's never been in the shroud
Not having top notch equipment
Being distracted while playing
Being a completely annoying talker who wont be quiet during fights
etc, etc

Passing on an experienced well equipped multiclass and accepting a mediocre inexperienced pure class is not helping you get through faster.

It's the old "don't judge a book by its cover". If your going to be a snob, at least look deeper than their multiclass selection, sheesh.

Try something polite in a tell like "We're looking for experienced players trying to get the run done in under 60 minutes. Kind of being picky tonight. Does that fit your skillset?" If they say they have a Min II item and are on their 32nd run, I'd not worry too much about their build. If they say yeah, I've done shroud once...well, then you have a reason to exclude, politely.

Me personally, I think it's more fun to take what comes and go with it (with the exception of holding out for a cleric or two). I feel more accomplished if I can work with what's thrown at me. But that's personal preference of course...but then again, I avoid leading the Shroud when I can and dump the star on a guildy (you know who you are)

[Kraak]

Not to derail but Gax has an important point on many of these "self buffing" multi-class builds. That point of course is they suck Investing multiple levels to "self-buff" is really "self-gimping" because:

A) UMD is Better, Longer, and Wider or
B) One Level Buys Everything or
C) Clickies/Gear and
D) For Raiding We Have a PARTY

Want to know why "pug" DPS is horrible ... here is one major cause.

I'd have to disagree with multi-classing leading to horrible DPS. My bard is 3 way multi-class and healthy as a horse. Self buffs and all. While multi-classing can lead to a "one build does everything" mentality which usually results in horrible dps, multi-classing itself is not a good indicator that someone has horrible dps. If you know what your build's focus is, then DPS is not inherently gimped.

That's one great thing about DDO. Where there's a will, there's almost always an excellent way to do it. There are a multitude of successful variations.

Now if that means that the person has Bard in their title, and you expect them to have something because of that, then the Bard doesn't necessarily suck. Its quite possible that pre-conceived notions about your expectations will result in your failure. That's why multi-class and Pug's have stigma. You don't know what to expect, and for most people its often to difficult to ask .

[Pyromaniac]

Passing on an experienced well equipped multiclass and accepting a mediocre inexperienced pure class is not helping you get through faster.

You're reading a little too much into my post.

From my post...."If they're known good players its not an issue...and typically if they have the gear the OP stated that would be good enough for me to invite."

An experienced well equipped multiclass toon would likely get into any party I'm leading. If they are experienced and well equipped likely I (or someone in the party) would know who they are. Thelanis isn't that big really.

Multiclass does not equal sub-optimal build. It sure can be if someone's gone with something odd like a wizard/sorcerer/monk combo with equal levels in each class. A pure monk could be a sub-optimal class for the shroud. Any more than 2 of them and it tends to be a low DPS run. Hopefully that changes once monks get the fixes they deserve.

But the thing with Shroud raids is - there's normally a ton of people wanting to join, so I would go with players I've grouped with before first, look at guild tag second, ensure I have a someone decent party mix third. I don't really need to send a bunch of tells asking questions, there's lots of people to pick from.

Its not about being a snob - its about beating the raid while not having to spend tons of resources. Unfortunately poor players are very unlikely to contribute to excessive costs a cleric endures to carry them through the raid.

Anyways, I've pretty much retired my clerics from non-guild shroud runs unless I know a significant portion of the shroud pug. The reason is easy - too many players not bringing what it takes to get it done. That might be poor playing skills, poor equipment, or sub-optimal builds.

One last thought - if someone is having trouble getting into groups, leading your own is always a way to get a group.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Not to derail but Gax has an important point on many of these "self buffing" multi-class builds. That point of course is they suck Investing multiple levels to "self-buff" is really "self-gimping" because:

A) UMD is Better, Longer, and Wider or
B) One Level Buys Everything or
C) Clickies/Gear and
D) For Raiding We Have a PARTY

Want to know why "pug" DPS is horrible ... here is one major cause.

Well, some of us don't have a pet Wiz/Clr in our back pocket to depend on.

And I for one think those who scream Haste, Blur, GH.......HEAL!!!!! Our the gimped ones.

And those PUGs you mention, usually see the pure classes stones being picked up by my gimped build all the time. So each to his own.

I admit that the "Hero" method is awesome and can accomplish great things.

I admit that a static group og players suporting each other can accomplish a lot.

Nothing could be better than having your raging barb get all the buffs he wants and healed non-stop without question.......just free to swing away and rack up kills without care (or competition).

But......most groups aren't like that in my experiance.

I'm flat broke on every one of ,y chars because I have to chug down potions to care for myself.

It's fine that you have those great guildies that support your play style.

I admit, it's a good one.

But it's not one I share.
And even th0ough I would be the first to say my build is gimped, I also know my build has a lot of strengths as well.

I've PUGed to 2697 favor now.
I've two manned 90% of the quests in the game with my gimp (but I admit my friend's Rgr can solo most of those without me)

But again.
Player and Gear matter way more than build in this game.

I will never understand why people can't see that.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Hmm... okay I can see your point... a 15/1 ranger/rogue with high UMD would probably be "better" than a 11/5 ranger/wizard...

Or a couple of fighter levels for some good feats...

You're probably right.... The build isn't the best possible ranger/xxxx combo... I'll admit that a lot of my wizard abilities are redundant in a good group (but I'm not always in a good group)

I think it's a solo/PUG build that's still strong enough to handle end-game content...

(And it's fun to play)

P.S. The point of the OP wasn't my build.... I know my build is strange... I was just amazed that a tell stating "Hey, I got dual w/p and dual mineral II - you can let me in" didn't work... and that he left me hanging for 20 minutes with no decline or tell...



Now back to work!!!!

My build was an evolution, and I made a lot of mistakes along the way....plus the devs conspired to make some of my choices useless or questionable as well.

Human Versitility nerf. Firewall, DD, and cloudkills scrolls gone....cloudkill nerfed big time. Flame arrow and stoneskin wands added.......turns out i could have gotten most of my advantages with only 1 lvl of Wiz.
Especially if I went Elf with dragon marks.

However, I have made a new char who will be a Rgr11/Wiz5 eventually.
The build is fun and like you said, you don't lose much. (but you do lose a little)

But mine has some very good advantages as well.
Maybe most importantly to me, is that I can run any quest with any group.
No need for that perfect combo...no need for a cleric.

You can argue jack-of-all trades, master of none....but actually, I'm a near master of ranged combat, and I would argue that I am a master trap monkey.
And most quests don't need a heavy tank....especially if you have friends along so you don't have to take all the agro.

I never ask for buffs, or healing.....and never need much healing anyway.

But it's rare that I have the high kill count either.....so I guess that means gimped to most of you.

But at the bottom of my sig it says: You need someone who can do what? Yeah, I can do that.