Permadeath Cleric, need advice

[Grenfell]

The benefit of the halfling build is AC. You don't fight your way to the shrine, you just run past everything and open the door, drop the stones, and run around till the party is up. Its called kiting. If there are enough mobs to have wiped your party, then you are next. The 8 STR is only a liability if you are facing Arcane Skels and Hobgoblin wizards because they like to spam Ray of Enfeeblement.

At low levels with my clerics I like to spam Sound Burst. It keeps mobs stunned (does not work on undead) and the party can slaughter them with little threat of a wipe.

And while you're trying to open the door to the shrine, the mobs are chillin' and relaxin'?

I guess I'd have to see this enormous AC benefit of the halfling build. Fullplate has max dex of 1; Halfling gives you another 1 AC. So the diff between say 36 AC and 37 AC is going to let the halfling kite so much more effectively?

I just don't buy it. I would rather have the HP's -- I can heal myself after all.

/gren

[Allistair]

The benefit of the halfling build is AC. You don't fight your way to the shrine, you just run past everything and open the door, drop the stones, and run around till the party is up. Its called kiting. If there are enough mobs to have wiped your party, then you are next. The 8 STR is only a liability if you are facing Arcane Skels and Hobgoblin wizards because they like to spam Ray of Enfeeblement.

At low levels with my clerics I like to spam Sound Burst. It keeps mobs stunned (does not work on undead) and the party can slaughter them with little threat of a wipe.

Most PD Guilds do NOT allow the use of shrines, so there is no point in running stones to the shrine.

[EKKM]

This next part is not related to Sir's post, but a different one and saves me from having to post a second time.
Charisma is not needed, the enhancements tied to charisma are not usable on self, only on others so they in no way enhance your own survivability. In the time it takes for you to use one of these abilities you could use a wand, cast a heal, burn a dragon mark, etc. If they are taking so much damage that all you have left is divine healing then let them die and make a new toon. They are playing a gimp.

The OP is talking about a dedicated permadeath group, not sure the underlined parts are very helpful or in the spirit of his objectives. Also, enhancing the survivablility of the group does enhance your own survivability.

Never played PD before but i imagine DVs, divine cleansing and turn undead are probably pretty important. Dvinie cleansing does a lot of the work purchased potions do, but thise pots may not be available in PD depending on the rules used.Turn undead doesn't start becoming useless until level 8-10 ish unless you are a turn build and there are not a lot of level 10 permadeath characters.

[Lehrman]

And while you're trying to open the door to the shrine, the mobs are chillin' and relaxin'?

I guess I'd have to see this enormous AC benefit of the halfling build. Fullplate has max dex of 1; Halfling gives you another 1 AC. So the diff between say 36 AC and 37 AC is going to let the halfling kite so much more effectively?

I just don't buy it. I would rather have the HP's -- I can heal myself after all.

/gren

Have you ever played a high AC character? I open shrines all the time with a mob on me, if one of them hits me with a magic 20, I start over. Besides, if shrines are banned, then your best bet if the party wipes is to run to the exit, not melee everything in one last blaze of glory.

[Vanda]

I have to back saying not to gimp strength. At low levels don't underestimate the power of a well placed command and few blows. If you want to multiclass, I would take a two fighter levels for the feats and the martial weapons. Toughness is a fighter bonus feat and is a good fit for PD. Its also nice to hide behind a tower shield if you wish and not be totally gimped if you want to swing.

[Lehrman]

The OP is talking about a dedicated permadeath group, not sure the underlined parts are very helpful or in the spirit of his objectives. Also, enhancing the survivablility of the group does enhance your own survivability.

Never played PD before but i imagine DVs, divine cleansing and turn undead are probably pretty important. Dvinie cleansing does a lot of the work purchased potions do, but thise pots may not be available in PD depending on the rules used.Turn undead doesn't start becoming useless until level 8-10 ish unless you are a turn build and there are not a lot of level 10 permadeath characters.

Turn undead is pretty much worthless and if the survivability of the party is low because they are poorly made, then they lower your own survivability as a cleric If you die, they die. If they die, you do not necessarily die. My argument is that putting points into Cha rather than into a stat that will raise your armor class or saves weakens your character. Saves>AC>HP and all of these are more important that charisma if you are not a Sorc. If you do not take cha, then spending the APs on cha based enhancments is wasteful and would be better used increasing your concentration on the off chance that you do get hit while casting a heals, taking 10% boost to wand healing, 10% boost to healing spells, +2 wisdom, +20 sps, etc.

If you are running heals on a group with low AC (2wpn/2hander builds) then your sps will not last long and having 3-5 clicks of divine healing(the only "divine" remotely worth taking at lower levels) will not make much difference. 1d3 every 2 seconds for 30 seconds=an average of about 30hps, but because it has a timer, the benefit ceases to apply once they are full so you will only get the full benefit if they have abysmally poor AC. At which point you may need to decide if you should keep them up or the rest of the party because they are effectively a spell point sponge. If you have more than one in the group, the problem compounds.

I do not run PD, so perhaps your groups do use sword and board or splash monk for high AC--at which point taking divine healing becomes unncessary since they will not be taking much damage to begin with. If people are playing weak builds, then, yes, they should die and be recreated rather than have the burden of their weakness be placed upon the shoulders of the cleric. The strong survive and the weak perish.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Have you ever played a high AC character?

Sorry Lehrman. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that question.


Yes. Yes he has.

But a non-twinked character is probably not going to have the gear available to reach a "high ac". At least not on a cleric build.

[Lehrman]

Sorry Lehrman. I almost fell out of my chair when I read that question.


Yes. Yes he has.

But a non-twinked character is probably not going to have the gear available to reach a "high ac". At least not on a cleric build.

Non-twinked AC for a level2 cleric
-----------------
10 Base
1 Race
9 Armor (FP with Dex)
2 Medium Shield
2 Defensive Stance
2 SoF (spell not pot)
2 Bark Pot
-----------------
28 = a 1 in 20 chance of being hit by a Str20 Lvl3 monster while opening a shrine.
27ac = a 1 in 10 chance of being hit by the same monster.

The same armor setup on a Lvl2 Pali is 27 without DS and 29 with DS.
Since your friend plays AC, then he knows that its the key to survivability at low levels just like HPs are in end game. If he combines both, then he is probably one of the better PD players.

Tangent Alert!
The point of ac for halfling only makes a difference if/when it requires that they roll a 20 to hit you, just like any 1 point of ac. The benefit of the halfling cleric is that you give him a high dex and eventually splash monk and put him in robes.

[Grenfell]

Non-twinked AC for a level2 cleric
-----------------
10 Base
1 Race
9 Armor (FP with Dex)
2 Medium Shield
2 Defensive Stance
2 SoF (spell not pot)
2 Bark Pot
-----------------
28 = a 1 in 20 chance of being hit by a Str20 Lvl3 monster while opening a shrine.
27ac = a 1 in 10 chance of being hit by the same monster.

The same armor setup on a Lvl2 Pali is 27 without DS and 29 with DS.
Since your friend plays AC, then he knows that its the key to survivability at low levels just like HPs are in end game. If he combines both, then he is probably one of the better PD players.

Tangent Alert!
The point of ac for halfling only makes a difference if/when it requires that they roll a 20 to hit you, just like any 1 point of ac. The benefit of the halfling cleric is that you give him a high dex and eventually splash monk and put him in robes.

This is a silly argument. If your lvl 2 cleric dies in PD, what's the big deal? Reroll and move on. You can get back to level 2 in less than 30 minutes.

The levels I would be concerned with, seriously, are from about 6 - 10, prior to getting Heal. (Lvl 12 if you go with my splash-ranger concept). It takes a decent amount of time, especially when slow-playing, to get to around lvl 6, so it makes sense to be protective. In all my time of playing, and levelling up at least 10 cleric builds of all kinds, I don't recall dying prior to lvl 7 -- and that usually because we bit off more than we can chew (since I'm not PD). Like going into SC on Elite at lvl 5. I assume PD groups would play with much more care, going slowly, using tactics, and the like.

Now, PD rules are all over the place, so I have no way of knowing what gear is or is not allowed. But at lvl 6, the following is really not out of the question:

10 base
11 Armor (FP +4)
1 Dex
5 Shield (HSS +4)
2 Deflection (self-cast Shield of Faith spell)
3 Barkskin potion (if allowed to buy these)
----------------------
32 AC

That's pretty robust at lvl 6. Gotta stay away from Trolls/Ogres, and elite Vermin, but Tangleroot, for example, can be profitably farmed equipped out like this. If +4 armor/shield is too much, then reduce them and get to around 28 AC. Still not bad.

The halfling would have 33 AC compared to the above, of course, or 29 AC. But let's also look at this:

My Dwarf:

Str 16
Dex 8
Con 18
Int 10 (2pts / lvl)
Wis 16
Cha 6

At lvl 6, the HP's are:

20 Base
40 Cleric 5
08 Ranger 1
09 Toughness feat
20 Dwarven Toughness II
30 Con bonus (+1 con item, Dwarven Con I)
----------
127 HP

The 8-Str Halfling by Lehrman:

8 str
16 dex
15 con
8 int
18 wis
8 cha
1st Feat: Least dragon mark

At 3rd or 4th lvl add a monk lvl and wpn finesse so that u can melee if pressed.

- No Toughness feat by lvl 6. Assume +1 con item.

HP:
20 Base
40 Cleric 5
08 Monk 1
18 Con bonus (+1 con item)
-------
86 HP

My build has a 51 HP advantage over the halfer, for giving up 1 AC. At lvl 6. I don't recall many level appropriate mobs hitting for 50+ in one hit. Even using the math of 1 AC = 1 in 10 chance of getting hit vs. 1 in 20, I can withstand 51 hp worth of those hits. Better yet, I can just kill all the mobs -->

Combat ability:

Bull's Str is a 2nd lvl Cleric spell. Cat's Grace is NOT.

My build:
+4 BAB
+3 Weapon (a plain vanilla +3 weapon of some sort is not out of the question @ lvl 6, even without twinking right?)
+5 Str bonus (16 base +4 Bull's = 20 Str)
+2 Divine Favor
+1 Bless
---------
+15 to hit, +10 to damage.

Indeed, at these lower levels, the Cleric compares very favorably to full-BAB Paladins. Pallys have +2 BAB, but usually, that's about it.

Lehrman's:
+4 BAB
+3 Weapon
+4 Dex (assuming +1 dex item, +1 halfling Dex enh)
+2 DF
+1 Bless
----------
+14 to hit, +6 to damage (assuming Bull's Str to get to 12 Str)

Except that Lehrman is limited to using the following finessable weapons -- kamas, daggers, hand axe, light mace. The best of the bunch is probably the 1d6 x3 handaxe. Neither Cleric nor Monk give access to martial weapons. My Dwarf can be using 1d10 x3 Dwarven Axes, with axe bonuses if you want to use AP's towards those. So now the gap is 11-20 (my dwarf) vs. 7-12 (the halfling).

Around lvl 6, that's a pretty sizable gap vs. level-appropriate mobs.

For what advantage, precisely? Least Dragonmark of Healing? +1 AC and +1 Saves? I'll take the 51 hp, better combat ability, and ability to use martial weapons for survivability, Alex.

Take it to lvl 9 or 10 and the difference becomes even more pronounced.

/gren

[Lehrman]

[img=http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8921/screenshot00039ca2.th.jpg]

[img=http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1980/screenshot00037gz6.th.jpg]

You forgot about sickles and halfling receive a +1 to hitroll, but yes, you are right that my hps would be 80 at lvl6 with only a +1con item. Also, finesse builds don't rely on their str as much as they do weapon effects for damage. So my hitroll would be lower and I would be using a +1elemental or holy of pure good. Further, my build has endgame entirely in mind, so I don't mind doing a little bit less damage now if it means I can have a self-buffed 65AC later.

The 4 clicks of cure light generated by the dragonmarks works out to an average of about 48 hps in healing (unempowered) though it did cost a feat, much like you taking toughness. I don't carry divine favor because I don't melee. I just run to the end of most quests, opening doors with packs of mobs on me, then cause light/nimbus/soundwave the boss. It gets me a 7% xp bonus and takes very little time when compared to killing everything that stands in my way.

Neither of these screenshots has Defensive stance active. I only activate it when on the run.

Anyway, this basically devolves into the AC/Saves v. Hp arguement.

Seph:
Wearing +3 mithril FP. So its 2 higher than normal.

The jump in AC between screenshots is from a Shield of Faith+3 pot, +3bark pot, Haste (+1)

[sephiroth1084]

Where does that jump in AC come from Lehrman?

[Grenfell]

[img=http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8921/screenshot00039ca2.th.jpg]

[img=http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1980/screenshot00037gz6.th.jpg]

You forgot about sickles and halfling receive a +1 to hitroll, but yes, you are right that my hps would be 80 at lvl6 with only a +1con item. Also, finesse builds don't rely on their str as much as they do weapon effects for damage. So my hitroll would be lower and I would be using a +1elemental or holy of pure good. Further, my build has endgame entirely in mind, so I don't mind doing a little bit less damage now if it means I can have a self-buffed 65AC later.

The 4 clicks of cure light generated by the dragonmarks works out to an average of about 48 hps in healing (unempowered) though it did cost a feat, much like you taking toughness. I don't carry divine favor because I don't melee. I just run to the end of most quests, opening doors with packs of mobs on me, then cause light/nimbus/soundwave the boss. It gets me a 7% xp bonus and takes very little time when compared to killing everything that stands in my way.

Neither of these screenshots has Defensive stance active. I only activate it when on the run.

Anyway, this basically devolves into the AC/Saves v. Hp arguement.

Seph:
Wearing +3 mithril FP. So its 2 higher than normal.

The jump in AC between screenshots is from a Shield of Faith+3 pot, +3bark pot, Haste (+1)

If you'd rather use a Sickle than a Handaxe, I suppose that's your choice.

And what sort of twinking rules are we talking here? You're talking about Holy of PG weapons, which are sort of on the rare side -- I have them, but if we're talking strict no-twink PD play... somehow I get the feeling you'll be using whatever you have handy.

What I highlight is the important part. Your build is almost entirely an end-game build. You may as well splash another Monk level and get Evasion too. Making it to the endgame, of course, is a different matter.

And while this may devolve to AC/Saves vs. HP, there really is no argument when it comes to clerics who can self-heal. Our survivability is entirely tied to our HP and our healing abilities. You're trying to maximize survivability on the high-end, which is an admirable goal, but I think inartful for the situation at hand: permadeath play.

The key, again, is from lvls 6-10 or so for a cleric. What is the survivability plan during those tough mid-levels --> that is the real question.

/gren

[Lehrman]

If you'd rather use a Sickle than a Handaxe, I suppose that's your choice.

And what sort of twinking rules are we talking here? You're talking about Holy of PG weapons, which are sort of on the rare side -- I have them, but if we're talking strict no-twink PD play... somehow I get the feeling you'll be using whatever you have handy.

What I highlight is the important part. Your build is almost entirely an end-game build. You may as well splash another Monk level and get Evasion too. Making it to the endgame, of course, is a different matter.

And while this may devolve to AC/Saves vs. HP, there really is no argument when it comes to clerics who can self-heal. Our survivability is entirely tied to our HP and our healing abilities. You're trying to maximize survivability on the high-end, which is an admirable goal, but I think inartful for the situation at hand: permadeath play.

The key, again, is from lvls 6-10 or so for a cleric. What is the survivability plan during those tough mid-levels --> that is the real question.

/gren

If no twinking, then you have to settle on an elemental of PG or holy wpn except when someone is dumping their twink gear on the AH or vendors. People drop elemental of pg lightmaces and other low critroll finessable weapons on the AH all the time.

Survivability is always about how much you bite off. For instance, only a maniac would solo STK on normal in PD, but since I don't play PD, I soloed STK on normal at lvl 5. The end fight was a lot of running, jumping and casting of nimbus. Same thing on elite and I ran out of SPS when he had half HPs, then I died--though I would have just jumped into the water and recalled when he leashed if I were playing PD or more likely have gone in with a group. As I said, I don't play PD and survivability is about biting off no more than you can chew.

I am curious to see what happens between 6 and 10 as well. I don't so much have a survivability plan as I have a leveling plan and for 6-10 it involves a group. Deleras is next and when I have sucked it dry, I will move on to GM/Co6, Gwylan's, SC, and then Threnal.

Same build at end game and yes, it splashes another monk level eventually just as you predicted and while the AC is not as high as a melee's its good enough.

Thank you for mentioning the handaxe, I didn't realize that was a monk weapon
Unfortunately, the handaxe removes centered bonus, so its fine for as long as I wear armor, but when I ditch the armer I will have to go back to kamas.

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