Strength based AC Intimidate Build...Need input please.

[Sequell]

My original post of this was a 10 rogue / 6 fighter...from all the input I have recieved I have edited the post to the split shown. Any more help with the build would be greatly appreciated.

Dwarf Lawful Good 10 Rogue / 3 Fighter / 3 Paladin

The concept is as an Inti-build to keep aggro and if for some reason I happen to have a monster that wants to turn his back a little before my intimidate recharges I can just stab him in the back for a large number that automatically gives me aggro right back.

I am at work right now so some of my calculations may be incorrect as I am doing this from memory. I rolled a character last night and was thinking of a split like this. 10 rogue 3 fighter 3 paladin High DPS high AC Intimidate build that also has full trap abilities. Before I get alot of negative feedback about tomes I will state that plus 2 tomes fall frequently and aren't nearly as uncommon as the once were. That being said I still only used 2 plus 2 tomes. Here is what I am working on atm.

Str 17 - +2 Tome +1 Ftr Str +4 Levels +6 Item = Str 30
Dex 15 - +2 Tome +3 Rogue +6 Item = Dex 26
Con 10 - +2 Dwarf Con +6 Item = Con 18
Int 12 - +2 Tome +6 Item = Int 20
Wis 8 - +6 Item = Wis 14
Cha 11 - +1 Tome +6 Item = Cha 18

The most important skills of this build with no enhancements and gear were...Also I should have enough to keep trap and lock skills close to maxed but not quite, so maybe not all leet traps for me.

Intimidate - 21
UMD - 21

The build will be a sword and board build wearing +5 Mith Breastplate and a +5 Mith Heavy Shield in intimidate mode. The armor class break down will be as follows if I remember correctly. If I make any errors please correct me, like I stated i'm at work atm. The Dex bonus to the AC comes from the 5 base max dex bonus...plus the 3 Dwarven Armory Mastery feats which equals a total of +8 with a 26 Dex.

10 Base
10 +5 Mith BP
8 Dex Bonus
7 +5 Mith Heavy Shield
4 Insight Bonus
5 Combat Expertise (Used only while Intimidating)
5 Protection Item
3 Barkskin pot
2 Aura
2 Chaos Guards
1 Armor Ritual (Which I have collectibles waiting already)
1 Shield Ritual (Same as Above)
1 Haste Pot
1 Dodge
--------------
60 Self Buffed

Raid Buffed

60
4 Bard Songs
3 Pali-aura
2 Full Barkskin
2 Recitation
--------------
71 (Which I hope will be moderately respectable)

Optimal AC potential

71
3 Chattering Ring
3 Situational Boost for 20 seconds
2 Shield Blocking
--------------
79 Total

I may have missed some extra AC somewhere which is the main reason for the post. Trying to get some input to see if this is a decent idea or that I just missed a post of a character that was made this way.

Feats will be something like this.

Dodge
Kopesh
Combat Expertise
Toughness

And really that is all I need as far as feats go. I am not even sure how many more I will get since i'm at work and don't have generator. That is all I can remember off the top of my head, any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Seq

[Aspenor]

I recommend obtaining a Daggertooth's Belt to increase your max dex bonus, but then you'd have to spend more build points in dexterity. It's going to be a little rough to have an AC oriented strength rogue.

You might have a few issues with hit points as well. You're not really looking at top end AC here, and you won't have a lot of leniency when the monsters are rolling high.

You also forgot a +4 Insight AC bonus from a tier III shroud weapon.

Personally I favor dexterity builds for rogues, for ease of AC.

It looks solid, I'm just a little concerned that end-game, you won't be as effective as you hope to be at your chosen role (intimidating and holding aggro efficiently).

[Gol]

+2 AC for Ranger Bark
+4 AC for Shroud crafted item
+3 Chattering Ring

And unless you need the Bonus Feats or don't want to be Lawful Good, Paladin 3/Fighter 3 gives you 2 more AC that you don't need somebody else for, as well as disease immunity and a boost to saves.

[Aspenor]

+2 AC for Ranger Bark
+4 AC for Shroud crafted item
+3 Chattering Ring

And unless you need the Bonus Feats or don't want to be Lawful Good, Paladin 3/Fighter 3 gives you 2 more AC that you don't need somebody else for, as well as disease immunity and a boost to saves.

ah, I forgot the ring.

I suppose with the ring you're looking at a very respectable AC, but you're still going to be low on hit points.

If you can drop some charisma for more con, I'd do it. Just my 2cp.

[minivanman]

It's a neat idea. However, my concern would be mitigating damage. Even shield blocking, you're going to go down fairly quick. You should think about some kind of "Shield Mastery" feat, or enhancement (since you're a dwarf). That'll put some more DR on you when you go into turtle mode.

[Sequell]

I recommend obtaining a Daggertooth's Belt to increase your max dex bonus, but then you'd have to spend more build points in dexterity. It's going to be a little rough to have an AC oriented strength rogue.

You might have a few issues with hit points as well. You're not really looking at top end AC here, and you won't have a lot of leniency when the monsters are rolling high.

You also forgot a +4 Insight AC bonus from a tier III shroud weapon.

Personally I favor dexterity builds for rogues, for ease of AC.

It looks solid, I'm just a little concerned that end-game, you won't be as effective as you hope to be at your chosen role (intimidating and holding aggro efficiently).

I am thinking as far as hit points go I should end around 300...thats with dwarven toughness as well as fighter toughness. How much Hp do you think is a good number to shoot for?

What do you think will cause me to loose aggro? I am not following why I would fail at that unless my AC isn't high enough to keep from getting the **** kicked out of me lol. I am quite sure I can reach a mid 50's intimidate without much effort at all.

[Aspenor]

I would also consider reworking your level split and attempting to take Way of the Acrobat. You'd have 8 improved uncanny dodges and would be immune to knockdown effects. Both of these abilities would be awesome for intimidating.

You need 12 rogue levels to obtain this enhancement.

What do you gain for 6 fighter that you wanted? Fighters STR 2?

[Aspenor]

What do you think will cause me to loose aggro? I am not following why I would fail at that unless my AC isn't high enough to keep from getting the **** kicked out of me lol. I am quite sure I can reach a mid 50's intimidate without much effort at all.

I'm more concerned about you running out of hit points and dying, causing you to lose aggro, than about you failing an intimidate roll.

[Sequell]

+2 AC for Ranger Bark
+4 AC for Shroud crafted item
+3 Chattering Ring

And unless you need the Bonus Feats or don't want to be Lawful Good, Paladin 3/Fighter 3 gives you 2 more AC that you don't need somebody else for, as well as disease immunity and a boost to saves.

I would have liked to put the 3 paladin in the build but if I did that I would loose one of my Fighter Strength points and cap at a 29 Str.

I guess it's a matter of opinion which is a better trade-off.

Pali Levels
2 AC
Higher saves
2 LoH
2 Smite Evils

Fighter Levels
1 more Str

Hummmm....maybe this is a no brainer...

[Sequell]

I would also consider reworking your level split and attempting to take Way of the Acrobat. You'd have 8 improved uncanny dodges and would be immune to knockdown effects. Both of these abilities would be awesome for intimidating.

You need 12 rogue levels to obtain this enhancement.

What do you gain for 6 fighter that you wanted? Fighters STR 2?

The Fighter Strength was really all I was after since a 30 sorta seems to be the bench mark. I don't know if it would hurt to be at a 28 max strength that bad as all my other builds are pretty much min/max style.

Any input about the effectiveness from anyone that has a max 28 on a important stat would be greatly appreciated.

[Sequell]

Thanks everyone for the input!

I have edited the AC ability per the input I recieved. I am thinking that makes the build look a good bit better for sure.

[Xanthrawl]

Str 17 - +1 Tome +2 Ftr Str +4 Levels +6 Item = Str 30
Dex 15 - +2 Tome +3 Rogue +6 Item = Dex 26
Con 10 - +2 Dwarf Con +6 Item = Con 18
Int 12 - +2 Tome +6 Item = Int 20
Wis 8 - +6 Item = Wis 14
Cha 13 - +1 Tome +6 Item = Cha 20

It appears in your stats that you did not include the Dwarven +2 Con and -2 Cha to start.
Stat/Ability Score/(Number of points Ability Score costs)
Str/17/(13)
Dex/15/(8)
Con/10/(2)
Int/12/(4)
Wis/8/(0)
Cha/13/(5)

Total points spent: 32.

Had the Dwarven Stats been factored in already, the point cost would have been like this:
Str/17/(13)
Dex/15/(8)
Con/10/(0)
Int/12/(4)
Wis/8/(0)
Cha/13/(8)

Total points spent: 33.

Your stats will be
Str 17 - +1 Tome +2 Ftr Str +4 Levels +6 Item = Str 30
Dex 15 - +2 Tome +3 Rogue +6 Item = Dex 26
Con 10 - +2 Dwarf Con Enhancement +2 Dwarf Con +6 Item = Con 20
Int 12 - +2 Tome +6 Item = Int 20
Wis 8 - +6 Item = Wis 14
Cha 13 - +1 Tome +6 Item - 2 Dwarf Con = Cha 18

[Sequell]

It appears in your stats that you did not include the Dwarven +2 Con and -2 Cha to start.
Stat/Ability Score/(Number of points Ability Score costs)
Str/17/(13)
Dex/15/(8)
Con/10/(2)
Int/12/(4)
Wis/8/(0)
Cha/13/(5)

Total points spent: 32.

Had the Dwarven Stats been factored in already, the point cost would have been like this:
Str/17/(13)
Dex/15/(8)
Con/10/(0)
Int/12/(4)
Wis/8/(0)
Cha/13/(8)

Total points spent: 33.

Your stats will be
Str 17 - +1 Tome +2 Ftr Str +4 Levels +6 Item = Str 30
Dex 15 - +2 Tome +3 Rogue +6 Item = Dex 26
Con 10 - +2 Dwarf Con Enhancement +2 Dwarf Con +6 Item = Con 20
Int 12 - +2 Tome +6 Item = Int 20
Wis 8 - +6 Item = Wis 14
Cha 13 - +1 Tome +6 Item - 2 Dwarf Con = Cha 18

Sorry I was trying to do from memory what I started with...I will update my numbers accordingly.

What is your opinion of the build as a whole? Thanks in advance for any input!

[Xanthrawl]

It looks pretty solid. As for your feats, you will get one at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15. Also Fighter levels 1, 2, 4, and 6. Total of 10 feats. Keep in mind certain feats cannot be taken as fighter bonus feats.

Assuming you choose to max UMD, that will be 19 ranks, +4 cha, +3 item (unless you get raid loot), +4 Greater Heroism + 2 Luck (recitation, head of good fortune) +5 rogue boost = 37 UMD.

As a side note, what rogue ability are you planning for level 10? I imagined improved evasion, but I can easily see slippery mind or skill mastery.

Do you have a reason for going Lawful Good? I guess it's as good an option as any. I personally prefer true neutral for characters that have high UMD.

[Sequell]

It looks pretty solid. As for your feats, you will get one at 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, and 15. Also Fighter levels 1, 2, 4, and 6. Total of 10 feats. Keep in mind certain feats cannot be taken as fighter bonus feats.

Assuming you choose to max UMD, that will be 19 ranks, +4 cha, +3 item (unless you get raid loot), +4 Greater Heroism + 2 Luck (recitation, head of good fortune) +5 rogue boost = 37 UMD.

As a side note, what rogue ability are you planning for level 10? I imagined improved evasion, but I can easily see slippery mind or skill mastery.

Do you have a reason for going Lawful Good? I guess it's as good an option as any. I personally prefer true neutral for characters that have high UMD.

I went Lawful Good for Chaos Guard but I guess in hindsight it really wouldn't matter because of my UMD score...What are your reasons for taking True Neutral?

For some reason the character planner gave me a 21 UMD when I ran it thru...

Also is that enough UMD? I plan on taking Skill Focus UMD too for a easily attainable 40 UMD.

Honestly I haven't ever built a character with this many rogue levels so I have no idea what the advantages are of each. My main premiss was to have high AC, Intimidate, as well as rogue abilities. 10 Rogue gives me the full +3 Dex bonus so I can almost max my Mith BP potential. If I could get a 28 Dex I could squeak out 1 more AC lol.

[Aeneas]

If you can't reach 350HP's, you're probably wasting your time.

This is very similar to my intimitank that's a 10 rogue/3 fighter/3 pally dwarf. The main difference being that yours has 6 more strength than mine, but i have 24 con and 22 charisma at end game for hp's and umd/saves.

When you're really in a tough spot low hit points will make having an intimitank more of a burden than a help because you'll get surrounded and plinked to death. Shield block DR only works directly in front of you, so generally only one mob of the 6 in a circle around you cares about that. The others will still hit you on 20 rolls and such, so their damage (even if it non-crit) is significant. Low will saves and fort saves are going to hurt you too.

[Sequell]

If you can't reach 350HP's, you're probably wasting your time.

This is very similar to my intimitank that's a 10 rogue/3 fighter/3 pally dwarf. The main difference being that yours has 6 more strength than mine, but i have 24 con and 22 charisma at end game for hp's and umd/saves.

When you're really in a tough spot low hit points will make having an intimitank more of a burden than a help because you'll get surrounded and plinked to death. Shield block DR only works directly in front of you, so generally only one mob of the 6 in a circle around you cares about that. The others will still hit you on 20 rolls and such, so their damage (even if it non-crit) is significant. Low will saves and fort saves are going to hurt you too.

My will save should be quite fine imo with the FoP. I should easily attain higher than a 20.

My Fort save may be a little low but really how many spells are Fort based that can't be totally blocked by a Death Block spell from a Cleric or a Deathblock item?

I have a few extra feats out there to use also. If these are weaknesses what feats can I utilize to make them less of a hinderance?

Any further input on HPs and saves would be helpful.

[Xanthrawl]

I see a lot of posts regarding HP, and I don't think that will be an issue at all.

20 Heroic Durability
10 Draconic Vitality
30 Greater False Life
18 Minos Legens
18 Toughness
60 Rogue Levels
60 Fighter Levels
80 Constitution Score
20 Fighter Toughness
20 Dwarven Toughness
----------------------
336HP (Not including Shroud item)

You can even buff this higher with False Life (The spell), Aid, Greater Heroism, Divine Power clicks, Stoneskin Wand (doesn't add HP, but makes you take less damage). Throw in situational HP like Virtue, and Bard buffs.

Also, this total HP is only using 1 toughness feat. With 10 feats Available, you could take 4-5 Toughness Feats (not that I recommend doing so) and still have all your bases covered.

L1 Force of Personality
L3 Toughness
L6 Toughness
L9 Toughness
L12 Toughness
L15 Toughness
F1 Dodge
F2 Khopesh
F4 Combat Expertise
F6 Improved Critical

This feat selection would add 72 more HP, bringing your total base HP to 408. (Plus buffs.) That being said, I'm not sure Force of Personality is worth it on this build. 14 wisdom vs 18 charisma? +2 difference for a feat? Might as well take Iron Will. =P

Saves will be a small issue on this build. Fort/Ref/Will
Base 10 Rogue 3/7/3
Base 6 Fighter 5/2/2
Ability Mod 5/8/2
Total 13/17/7
GH, Recitation, Resistance +5 = 24/28/18 (Note Will Save will be +2 higher if you take Force of Personality or Iron Will.)

[Gol]

300 HP will go awfully fast. 400 is better, but you ought to remember that most fighter based intimi-tanks are pushing 500.

And IMO, yes, Pal 3 is worth losing the 1 pt of Strength. Your build only has a +1 tome in Str and you're fairly likely to get a +2 Strength tome I'd think, so it really doesn't hurt you outside of losing a couple feats.

That said, a Dwarf with 10 starting Con makes me cry.

[Noctus]

In general looks like a fine build, but with certain places where it could be tweaked.
Including 2 +2 tomes in your calculations is fine, if you have a capped character and are willing to do the farming to get them.

1. Raise CON. You will make yourself the focus of all the monsters, and you need to have the HP to take the heat.
14 base (+ 2 dwarf in addition here) should be minimum for an Intimi-Tank.

2. To get the buildpoints to raise KON i´d lower STR by 1 point, as as an intimitank you aren´t extremly offensivly minded, but more focused on damage taking and mitigating.

3. I´d definetly include 3 levels of Paladin. Every point of AC counts. Most of the time there wont be a Paladin righ next to you to give you the Aura-Boni. And you get your CHA on saves, too, which is nearly as good,as with this you can stand the aggro from intimidated casters better.

4. Level distribution i wold go 11 Rogue / 2 Fighter / 3 Paladin. 3rd Fighter sucks, and 11st Roguegives another +1d6 damage and more skillpoints.