feat vs. enhancments

[oogly54]

There is a lot of talk about the issues around S&B. One of the main issues I see, around fighters in general, is the fact that the main advantage to being a fighter is having lots of feats. In yet, the DEVs have made many very power feats for other classes into enhancments and negating one of the draw backs of those classes. Barbarian crit rage is supposed to be a feat giving one weapon the improvment. Making it an enhancment for ALL weapons has negated the fact that barbs do not get a lot of feats. Same with Tempest. Many, many, enhancments should have been feats, which would have limited the choices of the "over powered" classes and brought there power back to a balanced level. The enhancment system in DDO has allowed for over powered characters, actually increasing the power for many classes. I believe that the enhancment powers need to be looked at in the future and changed to put more emphasis on feats.

P.S.
How many fighters have 5+ toghness feats or the feats that do absolutly nothing to red and purple names? (trip, sunder, etc.)

[Aspenor]

There is a lot of talk about the issues around S&B. One of the main issues I see, around fighters in general, is the fact that the main advantage to being a fighter is having lots of feats. In yet, the DEVs have made many very power feats for other classes into enhancments and negating one of the draw backs of those classes. Barbarian crit rage is supposed to be a feat giving one weapon the improvment. Making it an enhancment for ALL weapons has negated the fact that barbs do not get a lot of feats. Same with Tempest. Many, many, enhancments should have been feats, which would have limited the choices of the "over powered" classes and brought there power back to a balanced level. The enhancment system in DDO has allowed for over powered characters, actually increasing the power for many classes. I believe that the enhancment powers need to be looked at in the future and changed to put more emphasis on feats.

P.S.
How many fighters have 5+ toghness feats or the feats that do absolutly nothing to red and purple names? (trip, sunder, etc.)

This is an issue, but the choices have been made and it's a little too late to go back and change them now. It's probably a good idea for the devs to consider this in the future, however.

In RE: to your PS, hopefully none. Having more than 1 toughness feat on a fighter is a waste.

[oogly54]

This is an issue, but the choices have been made and it's a little too late to go back and change them now. It's probably a good idea for the devs to consider this in the future, however.

In RE: to your PS, hopefully none. Having more than 1 toughness feat on a fighter is a waste.

Taking stunning blow, trip, etc. is a waste IMO because they only work on the mobs that can be killed a 100 different ways. When you have 16 feats, it is very common to have several toughness just for the extra level +2 HP.

I have heard of a fighter having 10 toughness feats. That is almost 200 extra HPs, of course I feel there are at least 10 good feats a fighter can take that are useful.

[Aspenor]

Taking stunning blow, trip, etc. is a waste IMO because they only work on the mobs that can be killed a 100 different ways. When you have 16 feats, it is very common to have several toughness just for the extra level +2 HP.

I have heard of a fighter having 10 toughness feats. That is almost 200 extra HPs, of course I feel there are at least 10 good feats a fighter can take that are useful.

That's fine, I don't have any tactical feats on my fighter, and still have only 1 toughness feat, simply to open the enhancement line.

Other feats of note are feats that increase intimidate, weapon specialization (why fighters out there don't take this feat is beyond me), etc. When the level cap is 20, my fighter will have the feats to invest fully in both S&B and TWF. I find this to be very, very flexible.

[William_the_Bat]

Like a lot of game mechanics, the incentive to pure-class a fighter is small.

A whole lot of melee builds take a few levels of fighter just for feats. Fighter is an awesome class at low-mid levels when you are still taking useful feats. But you run out of those. In standard DnD, you end up switching to prestige classes. In DDO, all you can do is multiclass standard classes.

I'm very curious to see what the three standard fighter builds in the upcoming module will look like at high levels.

[Samadhi]

Taking stunning blow, trip, etc. is a waste IMO because they only work on the mobs that can be killed a 100 different ways. When you have 16 feats, it is very common to have several toughness just for the extra level +2 HP.

I have heard of a fighter having 10 toughness feats. That is almost 200 extra HPs, of course I feel there are at least 10 good feats a fighter can take that are useful.

Wow, I can't believe you find the tactical feats a waste. The main reason I frequently enjoy my fighter over my barbarian is that stunning blow + improved trip means that I'm close to untouchable.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they do nothing for beating on Arrae or the like, but the difference between beating him in 1 round and 2 is almost more just coolness points than it really matters.

Meanwhile, I can take my fighter and her almost good AC into the subterrainne, Hound, vale quests etc - and take down multiple enemies before I need any healing at all. Improved trip the first mob - assuming I have haste he will still be laying there when I'm done. Stunning blow the next - that's virtually an autokill. By the time he's beat down I have another trip ready for another mob, if needed, but my almost good AC does pretty well so I might not.

If we are judging the usefulness of something by its usefulness vs. red-named - I guess finger of death is useless too? The only thing I DON'T like about the tactical feats - is that for a fighter it is a massive AP investment - and for a dwarf it's almost none :/

[oogly54]

That's fine, I don't have any tactical feats on my fighter, and still have only 1 toughness feat, simply to open the enhancement line.

Other feats of note are feats that increase intimidate, weapon specialization (why fighters out there don't take this feat is beyond me), etc. When the level cap is 20, my fighter will have the feats to invest fully in both S&B and TWF. I find this to be very, very flexible.

I agree, taking the TWF feats will be usful, but then you are not a S&B tank when doing so. The issue is that if someone wants to be a S&B tank, what do they spend there extra feats on? What are the 14 feats that you find more valuable to a S&B other than a second toughness feat.

[oogly54]

Wow, I can't believe you find the tactical feats a waste. The main reason I frequently enjoy my fighter over my barbarian is that stunning blow + improved trip means that I'm close to untouchable.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they do nothing for beating on Arrae or the like, but the difference between beating him in 1 round and 2 is almost more just coolness points than it really matters.

Meanwhile, I can take my fighter and her almost good AC into the subterrainne, Hound, vale quests etc - and take down multiple enemies before I need any healing at all. Improved trip the first mob - assuming I have haste he will still be laying there when I'm done. Stunning blow the next - that's virtually an autokill. By the time he's beat down I have another trip ready for another mob, if needed, but my almost good AC does pretty well so I might not.

If we are judging the usefulness of something by its usefulness vs. red-named - I guess finger of death is useless too? The only thing I DON'T like about the tactical feats - is that for a fighter it is a massive AP investment - and for a dwarf it's almost none :/

I agree with you, the tactical feats have there place if you build a character for those fights. I personally try to build the best character for the bosses at the end of quests because all the rest are easily killed many, many different ways. I am not saying it is wrong to build the way you have, just not what I focus on.

The ability to kill Arae in 1 or 2 rounds isnt the point. If you ever run in a gimp pug then there are times it is a difference between 5 rounds and failure. If you are running it on elite, which I do regularly, then it is the difference between surviving with 450 HP and dying with 350.

[Aspenor]

I agree, taking the TWF feats will be usful, but then you are not a S&B tank when doing so. The issue is that if someone wants to be a S&B tank, what do they spend there extra feats on? What are the 14 feats that you find more valuable to a S&B other than a second toughness feat.

Well, on my S&B fighter I have....
Bullheaded
Weapon Spec
Gtr Weapon Spec
Dodge
Toughness
CE
PA
Skill Focus: Intimidate
etc.

There are a ton of useful feats, and taking toughness more than 1 time just seems to me to show ignorance about the flexibilty of the fighter class.

Additionally, if you mean somebody that "wants to play a S&B character" is a person that ONLY wants their character to fight in the S&B fashion, pigeonholing a character into such a position is a build mistake.

[Samadhi]

I agree with you, the tactical feats have there place if you build a character for those fights. I personally try to build the best character for the bosses at the end of quests because all the rest are easily killed many, many different ways. I am not saying it is wrong to build the way you have, just not what I focus on.

The ability to kill Arae in 1 or 2 rounds isnt the point. If you ever run in a gimp pug then there are times it is a difference between 5 rounds and failure. If you are running it on elite, which I do regularly, then it is the difference between surviving with 450 HP and dying with 350.

Lol, that example, amusingly enough, is why I do have more than 1 toughness on my fighter :P.

[EKKM]

I agree, taking the TWF feats will be usful, but then you are not a S&B tank when doing so. The issue is that if someone wants to be a S&B tank, what do they spend there extra feats on? What are the 14 feats that you find more valuable to a S&B other than a second toughness feat.

Power attack
cleave
great cleave
improved trip
combat expertise
stunning blow
weapon focus
wpn specialization
imp WF
imp WS
skill focus UMD
Iron will
luck of heroes
shield mastery
imp sheild mastery
Imp crit
dodge

Personally I think all 17 of those feats are more valuable than a second toughness feat.

I never thought about the OPs point before, but it makes alot of sense. Not sure about tempest though, that isnt supposed to be a feat but a prestige class, which the enhancments mirror nicely.

[oogly54]

Power attack
cleave
great cleave
improved trip
combat expertise
stunning blow
weapon focus
wpn specialization
imp WF
imp WS
skill focus UMD
Iron will
luck of heroes
shield mastery
imp sheild mastery
Imp crit
dodge

Personally I think all 17 of those feats are more valuable than a second toughness feat.

I never thought about the OPs point before, but it makes alot of sense. Not sure about tempest though, that isnt supposed to be a feat but a prestige class, which the enhancments mirror nicely.

I will not argu with your feat choices other than to say your opinion varies greatly from mine. To each there own. But this is off topic.

[gfunk]

I have an older 28 point pure fighter, that used to be THF, and was basically completely gimped. I wasnt even playing her anymore because she was dragging the parties down, but one day i decided to revive her so that i would have another shroud runner. With a bit of work, I slowly respec'd her to fully slash spec'd TWF with adequate intimidating and blocking (enough to either intimidate hound or lieutentants in VOD on normal). 26 blocking DR, 47 buffed intim.

With a bit more crafting, a better intim item (currently only have a +13), and some more raid loot I think I will manage ok on hard ratings in these quests. When equiped a bit better (and a bit more feat switching) she will have 38 blocking DR, and 59 buffed intim

Enough feats to get all this, full slash spec and full TWF.. I'm not complaining anymore (also remembering that it was only a 28 pointer.. not that this affects feats but with a 32 you could easily break 60 intim)

Sure, it's not as much dps as a raged barbarian, but with fighter haste boost and shroud weaponry, damage becomes significant (I know its short, but 5 boosts are enough to get you through most of rounds 4 and 5 in shroud.. and with two vorpals a double hasted fighter can really chop apart regular mobs).

I guess it just depends on what you want your fighter to do, but with the current spectrum of end game quests, you can contribute quite nicely with a pure fighter that has decent intim/blocking/moderate dps.

[oogly54]

I have an older 28 point pure fighter, that used to be THF, and was basically completely gimped. I wasnt even playing her anymore because she was dragging the parties down, but one day i decided to revive her so that i would have another shroud runner. With a bit of work, I slowly respec'd her to fully slash spec'd TWF with adequate intimidating and blocking (enough to either intimidate hound or lieutentants in VOD on normal). 26 blocking DR, 47 buffed intim.

With a bit more crafting, a better intim item (currently only have a +13), and some more raid loot I think I will manage ok on hard ratings in these quests. When equiped a bit better (and a bit more feat switching) she will have 38 blocking DR, and 59 buffed intim

Enough feats to get all this, full slash spec and full TWF.. I'm not complaining anymore (also remembering that it was only a 28 pointer.. not that this affects feats but with a 32 you could easily break 60 intim)

Sure, it's not as much dps as a raged barbarian, but with fighter haste boost and shroud weaponry, damage becomes significant (I know its short, but 5 boosts are enough to get you through most of rounds 4 and 5 in shroud.. and with two vorpals a double hasted fighter can really chop apart regular mobs).

I guess it just depends on what you want your fighter to do, but with the current spectrum of end game quests, you can contribute quite nicely with a pure fighter that has decent intim/blocking/moderate dps.

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with S&B fighting?

[oogly54]

Lol, that example, amusingly enough, is why I do have more than 1 toughness on my fighter :P.

Exactly my point, I do have multiple toughness feats.

[Mindspat]

Wow, I can't believe you find the tactical feats a waste. The main reason I frequently enjoy my fighter over my barbarian is that stunning blow + improved trip means that I'm close to untouchable.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they do nothing for beating on Arrae or the like, but the difference between beating him in 1 round and 2 is almost more just coolness points than it really matters.

Meanwhile, I can take my fighter and her almost good AC into the subterrainne, Hound, vale quests etc - and take down multiple enemies before I need any healing at all. Improved trip the first mob - assuming I have haste he will still be laying there when I'm done. Stunning blow the next - that's virtually an autokill. By the time he's beat down I have another trip ready for another mob, if needed, but my almost good AC does pretty well so I might not.

If we are judging the usefulness of something by its usefulness vs. red-named - I guess finger of death is useless too? The only thing I DON'T like about the tactical feats - is that for a fighter it is a massive AP investment - and for a dwarf it's almost none :/

Oogly has a very good point regarding the initial misdirection of feats & enhacemetns although it's not something that can easily be reverted.

I believe what it amounts to is Play Style. The ImpTrip is more then just tripping a mob since it also gets summed up as damage mitigation. If a mob is on their back then they're not going to be able to attack, in theory. FoD or PK can be looked at the same way although I personaly have not used either for close to a year now.

[gfunk]

I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with S&B fighting?

just that you can spec a fighter for part time sword and board when it actually means something, and still have enough feats left over for twf..

[Strykersz]

Wow, I can't believe you find the tactical feats a waste. The main reason I frequently enjoy my fighter over my barbarian is that stunning blow + improved trip means that I'm close to untouchable.

Don't get me wrong, I understand they do nothing for beating on Arrae or the like, but the difference between beating him in 1 round and 2 is almost more just coolness points than it really matters.

Meanwhile, I can take my fighter and her almost good AC into the subterrainne, Hound, vale quests etc - and take down multiple enemies before I need any healing at all. Improved trip the first mob - assuming I have haste he will still be laying there when I'm done. Stunning blow the next - that's virtually an autokill. By the time he's beat down I have another trip ready for another mob, if needed, but my almost good AC does pretty well so I might not.

If we are judging the usefulness of something by its usefulness vs. red-named - I guess finger of death is useless too? The only thing I DON'T like about the tactical feats - is that for a fighter it is a massive AP investment - and for a dwarf it's almost none :/

Your barb doesn't stunning blow with a higher dc than your fighter?