Discussion: Improving S&B

[Cold_Stele]

Hmmm, I'd contend PK and Evasion were fixes to blatant deviations from PnP, just like vorpaling on crits.

HV is part of the whole fiasco i'm talking about with the enhancement system.

Let's say then (because the devs have changed in the history of the game) what's been nerfed since the enhancement system changed?

[smatt]

Hmm, well there's no doubt that the swings in Race/Class over-powering have made S/B tanks the weaklingsw of Stormreach... I mean heck, when you can build a 2 weapon melee with a 65-72 AC that can almost double the DPS of a S/B build There's never going to be exact balance in DDO, and there never should be, but the way they've let certain classes so outstrip other classes in every single way is very poor game devolopment. I think the main problem is that everytime they try to improve a class, that seems a bit weaker they go way overboard, then the try to correct it by going way overboard on another classs. It ends up being this huge seesaw. And if they dare to take away something form a class or race that should've never been implemented in the first place, it turns into Romper Room time They've made it way to easy to for minimal level splashes to gain major bonues of said classes.

A reasonably easy way to give the S/B people a bit of a cookie without destroying the other classes would be to give a graduated DR scale by level for shield/armor users..... As you increase in level your regular DR as well as your blocking DR increases. There's no doubt that the dex build and intuitivenss of the Monk wisdom bonus to AC are proper. But also such clases should take MORE damage when they do get hit as oppossed to when a fully armored class takes a hit. And I'm not talking 3 or 5 points more either, nto at lvl 16..... It should be in the 15-20-25 points range. Not getting hit is one thign, but when you do get hit when not wearing tangible armor you shold get a good whack. There's nothing there to dampen the impact, to spread out the kinetic energy.

Easy yes, logical yes.... Plausible.... nope

[Borror0]

Meh, I gotta say I agree with Dex on this.

It would appear from the available evidence that Turbine have a clear no nerf policy - unless you consider unfavourable mob makeup in new content a nerf.

They don't have a no nerf policy, they have a "well, we'll try not to nerf too often" policy. Which, in itself, isn't a bad idea.

They never stated they would never nerf.

[Aspenor]

They don't have a no nerf policy, they have a "well, we'll try not to nerf too often" policy. Which, in itself, isn't a bad idea.

They never stated they would never nerf.

Theoretical question....

Is changing the functional rules of an enhancement a nerf????

For example, if they introduced Way of the Acrobat III, and made it such that it required tier III instead of tier II to obtain the knockdown immunity, is this a nerf???

Just asking opinions, not making an argument.

[Turial]

Theoretical question....

Is changing the functional rules of an enhancement a nerf????

For example, if they introduced Way of the Acrobat III, and made it such that it required tier III instead of tier II to obtain the knockdown immunity, is this a nerf???

Just asking opinions, not making an argument.

I would view it as an adjustment to the requirements because you can still get the "ability" you want, which in this case is knockdown immunity, and the level of power you had prior, just through a different pathway.

A nerf in my mind would be restricting something like axe attack and damage enhancements to dwarven axes when prior they used to cover all axes. (extream example)

[Borror0]

For example, if they introduced Way of the Acrobat III, and made it such that it required tier III instead of tier II to obtain the knockdown immunity, is this a nerf???

Just asking opinions, not making an argument.

That's a good question... I'd say yes.

Those who planned their 12 rogues/6 rangers (or whatever deeply multilcassed builds) would be pretty upset. As for those who can always get tier III, they have to spend more APs to get as much out of it. It's a nerf, just a softer one for them. As you long as you become less powerful from having the same enhancement, you've been nerfed. (Unless the content has been nerfed as well, but that does not apply here.) At least, that's my opinion.

Why do you ask, Asp?

[Aspenor]

That's a good question... I'd say yes.

Those who planned their 12 rogues/6 rangers (or whatever deeply multilcassed builds) would be pretty upset. As for those who can always get tier III, they have to spend more APs to get as much out of it. It's a nerf, just a softer one for them. As you long as you become less powerful from having the same enhancement, you've been nerfed. (Unless the content has been nerfed as well, but that does not apply here.) At least, that's my opinion.

Why do you ask, Asp?

That makes sense.

Oh, no reason....

[Aspenor]

He's making sure you don't have a doppleganger or are posting under two names maybe?

well that's awful pessimistic, a guy can't ask a question?

*3rd ninja of the day*

[Turial]

..,..
Why do you ask, Asp?

He's making sure you don't have a doppleganger or are posting under two names maybe?

[Borror0]

*3rd ninja of the day*

I'm up to like 5 so far, in less than 30 minutes. Seems the forums are buggy again today.

He's making sure you don't have a doppleganger or are posting under two names maybe?

....what?

[Torron]

I think ddo lowerd the sword and board user abilities accidently With the addition of monk class and that icy item allowed the 2 wpn dex biulds to equal and surpass the sword and board ac.

sheild mastery enhancements could be like this (for fighter Pally only)

enhancement 1 +1 damage reduction +1 shield ac
enhancement 2 +2 damage reduction +2 shield ac
enhancement 3 +3 damage reduction +3 shield ac

feats

shield mastery all melee biulds

+3 damage reduction +2 ac while using shield

improved shield mastery

+3 damage reduction +4 ac while using a shield

armor mastery enhancements

enhancement 1 +1 max dex bonus 1/2/3/5 armor passive dr bonus lvl 8 ftr pally barb rng
enhancement 2 +2 max dex bonus 2/3/6/10 armor passive dr bonus lvl 12 ftr pally barb rng
enhancement 3 +3 max dex bonus 3/6/10/15 armor passive dr bonus lvl 16 ftr pally barb rng

robe/light/med/heavy


dwarf armory mastery bonus

enhancement 1 +1 max dex bonus 2 armor passive dr bonus
enhancement 2 +2 max dex bonus 4 armor passive dr bonus
enhancement 3 +3 max dex bonus 6 armor passive dr bonus

Im partial to dwarves but number for dwarf could be 1, 2, 3 on dr bonus

A little added bonus but not enough to be over powering to other fighters

[Turial]

well that's awful pessimistic, a guy can't ask a question?

*3rd ninja of the day*

Yeah, just ignore me its been a day and a half and I still have 2 days to go before I can go home.

[Dexxaan]

Hmmm, I'd contend PK and Evasion were fixes to blatant deviations from PnP, just like vorpaling on crits.

HV is part of the whole fiasco i'm talking about with the enhancement system.

Let's say then (because the devs have changed in the history of the game) what's been nerfed since the enhancement system changed?

/Agreed.

Evasion was a very unpopular fix...luckily most evasion batman builds in FP got rerolled anyway. But still a fix...people knew (95% or more) they shouldn´t push that envelope, yet they did and Turbine delivered as it should have been. (IMO of course)

I don´t claim Nerf´s are impossible....just highly unlikely. i mean when did the last Police Officer that pulled you over due to a bad taillight pull his Piece on you? Same Difference.

I think ddo lowerd the sword and board user abilities accidently With the addition of monk class and that icy item allowed the 2 wpn dex biulds to equal and surpass the sword and board ac.

sheild mastery enhancements could be like this (for fighter Pally only)

enhancement 1 +1 damage reduction +1 shield ac
enhancement 2 +2 damage reduction +2 shield ac
enhancement 3 +3 damage reduction +3 shield ac

feats

shield mastery all melee biulds

+3 damage reduction +2 ac while using shield

improved shield mastery

+3 damage reduction +4 ac while using a shield

armor mastery enhancements

enhancement 1 +1 max dex bonus 1/2/3/5 armor passive dr bonus lvl 8 ftr pally barb rng
enhancement 2 +2 max dex bonus 2/3/6/10 armor passive dr bonus lvl 12 ftr pally barb rng
enhancement 3 +3 max dex bonus 3/6/10/15 armor passive dr bonus lvl 16 ftr pally barb rng

robe/light/med/heavy


dwarf armory mastery bonus

enhancement 1 +1 max dex bonus 2 armor passive dr bonus
enhancement 2 +2 max dex bonus 4 armor passive dr bonus
enhancement 3 +3 max dex bonus 6 armor passive dr bonus

Im partial to dwarves but number for dwarf could be 1, 2, 3 on dr bonus

A little added bonus but not enough to be over powering to other fighters

Icy Raiment isn´t even needed to surpass your Average +5 MFP and +5 MTS Chaosgarde and insight using Knight.

unfortunatley I disagree wholeheartedly with your approach to resolve things, the problem is that any S&B benefits cannot / should not be FEAT, nor Enhancement line dependent (unless 1,2,3 cost if that) because Paladins & Fighters are absolutely starved for AP´s and youd be going from Gimped in one area o another.....bad business IMO.

I believe it was aspenor who had a progressive Armor & Shield TYPE Dependent line that was quite attractive and provided AC and DR benefits.

GS Shields (That don´t act or count as Item nor Weapon) would be awesome....if need be it should act as a weapon as to not interfere with your GS items.

Lets give Mod 8 a chance of proving the direction Turbine is gonna take with this BASE Melee Class that is outgunned and can´t even out Armor Class the Dual Wielders.

[smatt]

I think ddo lowerd the sword and board user abilities accidently With the addition of monk class and that icy item allowed the 2 wpn dex biulds to equal and surpass the sword and board ac.

sheild mastery enhancements could be like this (for fighter Pally only)

enhancement 1 +1 damage reduction +1 shield ac
enhancement 2 +2 damage reduction +2 shield ac
enhancement 3 +3 damage reduction +3 shield ac

feats

shield mastery all melee biulds

+3 damage reduction +2 ac while using shield

improved shield mastery

+3 damage reduction +4 ac while using a shield

armor mastery enhancements

enhancement 1 +1 max dex bonus 1/2/3/5 armor passive dr bonus lvl 8 ftr pally barb rng
enhancement 2 +2 max dex bonus 2/3/6/10 armor passive dr bonus lvl 12 ftr pally barb rng
enhancement 3 +3 max dex bonus 3/6/10/15 armor passive dr bonus lvl 16 ftr pally barb rng

robe/light/med/heavy


dwarf armory mastery bonus

enhancement 1 +1 max dex bonus 2 armor passive dr bonus
enhancement 2 +2 max dex bonus 4 armor passive dr bonus
enhancement 3 +3 max dex bonus 6 armor passive dr bonus

Im partial to dwarves but number for dwarf could be 1, 2, 3 on dr bonus

A little added bonus but not enough to be over powering to other fighters

Nice numbers, I like it..... But take out the easy button Dwarf ones and they'd be perfect..... Dwarves are the easy button melee class and already get too much

[Artagon]

1. Is it a good idea for Turbine to change drastically the definitions and roles of the fighting styles in DDO? Why? I'm not sure here.. I guess I'm ok with SLIGHTLY higher AC for TWF, if sword/board folks get DR to compensate, more on this later.
   
2. Is it OK for Turbine to nerf in this situation? Why? If yes, by how much (or how)? And why?
   I'd like to see a monk multi-class nerf to bring the AC more in line with other builds. The way I would accomplish this would be to make a multi-class monk have a max wisdom AC bonus = their monk levels. This would make one level of monk no better than one level of paladin. As it is, one level of monk is clearly superior to ANY other single level splash.
   
3. Are you scared of inflation? Why? Another good question. Yes, I'd have to say I am, Specialization is good, but specializing in one aspect of a character should make you viable without ridiculously hard to acquire gear, thus allowing you to grab gear that fills other roles you might need to fill.
   
4. Do you think it would be a good idea reduce the AC scores that PCs can reach if mobs' to-hits were also lowered? What about just lowering mobs' to-hits? Justify your answers. Again, I'm ok with losing the insane monk-splash ACs that are currently prevalent, so yes, I'd be ok with the drop engendered by my proposed fix without lowering to-hits if you include DR, see below. This would allow monks to be more viable due to their increased AC when compared to the drop that other TWF monk splashes would feel. Additionally, Sword and board would be far more viable, especially if half their AC bonus was a static DR/- (+5 FP would be 6/-, and a +5 Tower Shield would be static 5/-, blocking DR would increase this number) By making the DR a standard, lighter armor may very well add more AC for those high dex characters, but in exchange they take more damage when hit. Of course, everyone benifits from a shield at this point as well, to varying degrees.. so do you go super AC, or decent DR?
   
5. Would you like to see a bunch of feats to improve S&B? Any suggestions? (It can be either in the form of feats or just unrefined ideas that still need to be rethought. It can be as general as "Something giving them DR would be cool." if you want.) If you use feats already existing in PnP, please indicate the book. With the proposed changes above, I feel this would be mostly unnecessary, though I would like to see improved shield bashing just make the shield arm part of the attack chain, like equipping a second weapon with only the first twf feat.
   
   
6. Do you think that S&B could use more DPS, also, to be brought back in line? See the thought just above about shield bashing.
   
   
7. Do you think paladins and fighters should become S&B specialists and receive enhancements focused on S&B fight? Explain your answer. I am certainly ok with fighters and paladins being better than other classes at S&B, and if the DR ability is added, I don't feel that them achieving better AC via shields would make the other classes NOT desire shields, after all, what bard WOULDN'T prefer to take less damage? AC is less important than DR at that point..
   
8. Do you think S&B should have the ability (or opportunity) to be protected by other means than AC? If yes, list a few. LoL... I think I've made that clear in all my answers above... didn't see this question till now :P
   
   
9. Would you be in favor of a cap on Dodge AC? Why? Meh, with the changes I have above, I think this becomes a bit moot.

I'd like to finish by saying that by adding DR, it might become important to actually LOWER AC a little bit on armor to compensate.. though I tend to doubt it.


Quick calculation. Dragontouched armor would provide DR 7/-
+5 Tower Shield DR 5/-
Blocking w/ imp, shield mastery DR 10/-
-----------------------------
Total Blocking DR DR 22/-

Neato.. even with a slightly lower AC, you'd be pretty powerful while blocking, especially if the Defender of Syberis line stacks, achieving 42 total DR! Of course, non-blocking, you're looking at DR 12/- which is pretty great too. Barb DR would stack, making a non-shield barb have equivalent DR to a towershield user, which is pretty nifty.

[Borror0]

Woah, necro.

[Djeserit]

I agree with the idea that DR is the solution to AC problems in the game. Dexterity, training and low encumbrance should make you hard to hit. Armor, helmets, shields, etc. should reduce the pain when you do get hit. Game-wise this would give you two alternate paths for character development: gnat v. turtle. Both should be useful in the game, in different ways and different situations.


On a deeper level, the solution to AC is to throw out the D20 system. <ears closed to screams of PnP idealists> To hit should be based on a scaling system. For example 1d6/BAB + bonuses v. AC. A level 10 critter with +10 from STR, weapon bonus, feats enhancements, buffs would be rolling 10d6+10, giving a result from 16-70, median 45. If your AC at level ten is 45, you would get hit about half the time by this CR 10 mob. Higher AC's would help, but unless you get above 70, you still have a small chance of getting hit. Likewise, unless your AC is truely less than 16, it would still be helping a little.

[Turial]

.....
On a deeper level, the solution to AC is to throw out the D20 system. <ears closed to screams of PnP idealists> To hit should be based on a scaling system. For example 1d6/BAB + bonuses v. AC. A level 10 critter with +10 from STR, weapon bonus, feats enhancements, buffs would be rolling 10d6+10, giving a result from 16-70, median 45. If your AC at level ten is 45, you would get hit about half the time by this CR 10 mob. Higher AC's would help, but unless you get above 70, you still have a small chance of getting hit. Likewise, unless your AC is truely less than 16, it would still be helping a little.

Or we can give mobs a variable to hit bonus which would also make the AC range wider then 20 for effectiveness....specifically the lower AC's.

[ryejar]

I remember a day when rangers were gimp, and had a hard time even finding a party. What comes around-goes-around and I'm sure sword and board will be brought back up to speed again soon.

Sheilds are the only thing yet to be crafted. When a high AC, DR, DEX sheild comes around, with all the Guards on it. I belive things will be a bit more balanced.

[kruggar]

my thinking is simple.. in pnp u cant reach that high ac in a twf cause dex and wis are way lower in a pnp game.

if u think in that terms a S&B has advantages in AC over a dex build, not much over a monk but almost the same.

in DDO with the higher stats we have here S&B dont have advantages of using shield and for me the only solution i see is give S&B dmg mitigation with shields without the blocking.. maybe a % of the total blocking DR like 25% and increse this number with the feats like shield mastery.. the exact formula can be worked out for game balancing.

so the trade off will be dps per dmg mitigation and ac.. wich will help the shield users a lot. this may balance the game for the swb a little.