Discussion: Improving S&B

[Cold_Stele]

Fair points Maddmatt, but remember Dwarven Rangers will be able to take the (Dwarven) Defender PrC if they meet the prereqs too.

Can you point me to the post where they state this?

Oogly, these are from the thread where the devs first came out and said that they acknowledged there was a problem with Barb and Dorf enhancements, but that they weren't going to nerf -

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=18

Yes, Dwarves (and Barbarians, for that matter) have several overpowered enhancements. We're adding to everyone else rather than taking them away from them.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=38

I really should have worded that as "we'll do what we can to add rather than take away."

While it's possible that some changes will be made to some of the enhancements that are most out of line, we try to stay away from that when we can.

[Raiderone]

So being spec'd for S&B means fighting with a shield? That's it?
How is that spec'd?
That requires no Feats.
All it requires is the Armor Mastery and Tower Shield Enhancements as far as I can tell and only as far as you have the Dex for.
How is that different today then when the cap was 10?
If it's because no new Feats and enhancements for S&B have been added then I'm in 100% agreement.
But by this argument, it would appear that there never have been S&B Feats.
Are you counting the Stunning Blow Feat for S&B?
Trip?
Those are equally beneficial to all fighting styles that can squeeze them in so you can't be counting that as a S&B specific Spec.
They are dependent on Stats, not Fighting Styles.
So how is a S&B specifically spec'd to be S&B, and by spec'd I mean which Feats does he take, what Stats does he need?
In the case of TWF it's pretty straightforward:
17 minimum Dexterity.
Then TWF, ITWF, and GTWF.
If you plan on having higher Dex than Str then you take Weapon Finesse.
Otherwise you don't.
If you want to get OTWF you need a minimum 13(?) Str I believe.
There you have it: a TWF spec'd Character.
Just holding a shield and swinging a sword does not make you S&B spec'd, does it?

There is no Spec for S&B besides a few enhancements to make Armor and Shields
slightly more productive, if the PC increases Dex to take advantage of the Enhancements. S&B is automatic (fighter class). I would like to see them
combine as one. Armor & Shield Mastery or no Dex limitation like Ranger TWF.

That's what I think the problem is. No feats and very limited or poor enhancements.
(not talking about Shield Bash, I don't see any use for it).

TWF has spec's. Feats and Enhancements to increase capability.

All I want are feats to separate the boys from the girls... I'm not looking for feats to make S&B better than TWF or even balanced with TWF.

If you want to play TWF, go ahead. But I want to play S&B and not feel that
any tom, richard or harry can do it just as good. Like TWF switching to S&B
and not missing a beat.

[Aspenor]

There is no Spec for S&B besides a few enhancements to make Armor and Shields
slightly more productive, if the PC increases Dex to take advantage of the Enhancements. S&B is automatic (fighter class). I would like to see them
combine as one. Armor & Shield Mastery or no Dex limitation like Ranger TWF.

That's what I think the problem is. No feats and very limited or poor enhancements.
(not talking about Shield Bash, I don't see any use for it).

TWF has spec's. Feats and Enhancements to increase capability.

All I want are feats to separate the boys from the girls... I'm not looking for feats to make S&B better than TWF or even balanced with TWF.

If you want to play TWF, go ahead. But I want to play S&B and not feel that
any tom, richard or harry can do it just as good. Like TWF switching to S&B
and not missing a beat.

I would be very, very much in favor of combining the armor and shield mastery enhancements for fighters, as long as the AP expense associated is not kept at the current cost.

Speccing into armor and shield mastery is exceedingly expensive, and if the combined enhancement is compensated for with an increased cost, the benefit is entirely lost.

The new enhancement should have the same cost as a single line of each, 2AP for Armor/Shield mastery I, 4 AP for armor/shield mastery II, and 6 AP for armor/shield mastery III.

[oogly54]

Fair points Maddmatt, but remember Dwarven Rangers will be able to take the (Dwarven) Defender PrC if they meet the prereqs too.



Oogly, these are from the thread where the devs first came out and said that they acknowledged there was a problem with Barb and Dorf enhancements, but that they weren't going to nerf -

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=18



http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=38

This is quit a leap to say they will never nerf, if this is all the evidence. One time not doing something doesnt mean they will never nerf.

[oogly54]

Turbine is addressing your "sword and board crises".

1. Last I checked you couldn't wear the icy rainment and another set of robes. Robe wearers will be forced to choose one or the other whereas armor wearers will have the dragonscale option which will be undoubtedly at least as good as the icy rainments hence neutralizing the current robe wearers icy rainment advantage.

2. Pally and fighter love. Turbine is adding enhancements and spells to the two primary sword and board classes in DDO this coming mod.

3. Defensive prestige enhancements: The dwarven defender and a paladin defensive prestige enhancement are due to come out in mod 9 these defensive prestige enhancements will again give sword and boards plenty of ac love.

4. More feats: Turbine has maintained there will be new tactical feats in mod8. New sword and board feats are all possible.

The post below yours admits to dwarves and barbarians being over powered in yet dwarven defnder is coming out? STOP IMPROVING DWARVES!!!!

If the tatical feats that are added do not work against most orange names and zero red or purple names, they are pointless in my book.

[Aspenor]

This is quit a leap to say they will never nerf, if this is all the evidence. One time not doing something doesnt mean they will never nerf.

There has not been evidence given that demonstrates that a nerf is the best way to handle this "situation."

[Borror0]

There has not been evidence given that demonstrates that a nerf is the best way to handle this "situation."

Yes:

I'm not gonna run around for weeks tabulating damage, misses, and damage resisted on varying AC's and armor sets. It's not my job nor it is it anybody else's on this forum.

Something taking "weeks tabulating damage, misses, and damage resisted on varying AC's and armor sets" means it is overly complicated.

Nerfing wouldn't take as long to analyze: we've been there before. The most simple solution is usually the best one.

[Aspenor]

Yes:

Something taking "weeks tabulating damage, misses, and damage resisted on varying AC's and armor sets" means it is overly complicated.

Nerfing wouldn't take as long to analyze: we've been there before. The most simple solution is usually the best one.

Wrong.

The best solution is rarely the easiest OR the fastest.

I cringe in horror to imagine what the world would be like if this were true.

[quickgrif]

NWN version of Defender. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Dwarven_defender
If opened as an enhancement line for pally and fighter for any race some of this stuff could be adapted nicely to help out I would think.

[Aspenor]

Yes:

Something taking "weeks tabulating damage, misses, and damage resisted on varying AC's and armor sets" means it is overly complicated.

Nerfing wouldn't take as long to analyze: we've been there before. The most simple solution is usually the best one.

additionally from above, the quickest, easiest solution to the problem is to just throw S&B another loot bone in the next mod, not to nerf people's characters and currently earned loot into oblivion.

change leviks bracers to a dodge mod. maybe introduce a shield with a dodge mod, or a profane mod.

the idea is to move forward, NOT backward.

[Cold_Stele]

This is quit a leap to say they will never nerf, if this is all the evidence. One time not doing something doesnt mean they will never nerf.

/shrugs

You know the devs, that's as much as you're going to get from them.

We've had Crit Rage and Dorf enhancements for a year so they're obviously here to stay.

You can read into that whatever you want but my guess is that the devs are unlikely to nerf Tempest and/or Monk splashes now they've set that precedent.

Who knows though?

[Xithos]

additionally from above, the quickest, easiest solution to the problem is to just throw S&B another loot bone in the next mod, not to nerf people's characters and currently earned loot into oblivion.

change leviks bracers to a dodge mod. maybe introduce a shield with a dodge mod, or a profane mod.

the idea is to move forward, NOT backward.

The Dodge bonus on that shield is going to have to be huge to get the S&B guy to an acceptable level of AC vs. Rainment/Wis AC guy to justify gimping himself/herself out with a shield

[Alcides]

Yes:

Something taking "weeks tabulating damage, misses, and damage resisted on varying AC's and armor sets" means it is overly complicated.

Nerfing wouldn't take as long to analyze: we've been there before. The most simple solution is usually the best one.

Well the devs have basically said they aren't going to apply nerf bats, according to Cold's Post here.

It is not a trivial matter to rebalance all of the content in the entire game just so S&B AC is on par with TWF AC. You're talking lots of man hours, and coming from a software engineering background I'm going to agree with the Devs on this one. It's easier to make a weaker class/combination stronger than it is to rebalance the game every time you have this sort of issue arise. Plus if an item was added to the game, and players took the time to acquire that item, you should not devalue it. If you start Indian Giving then you stand a good chance to alienate your player base.

[Borror0]

additionally from above, the quickest, easiest solution to the problem is to just throw S&B another loot bone in the next mod, not to nerf people's characters and currently earned loot into oblivion.

This where your "The best solution is rarely the easiest OR the fastest."

Yes, opiate for the masses, throwing an overpowered ability to the S&B is the fastest and easiest solution. Doesn't mean it's the best one. It'll just imbalance the game more than it was before. It's like pilling up items of different weight, size and form pretending it's building up something solid and you're moving forward. One day, you're going to have to resign it all becuase the game will be poorly designed.

the idea is to move forward, NOT backward.

By that logic, if killing was made legal. It would be a bad idea to go back when killing was illegal.

Sometimes, you make a change and realize you messed up. Better to go back to the way it was. Yes, sometimes you make a change and you feel it needs just a little adjustment to fix it. However, that is not the case here. Do you realize how much the fact that TWF can get more AC now is game changing? I do.

[sirgog]

Well the devs have basically said they aren't going to apply nerf bats, according to Cold's Post here.

It is not a trivial matter to rebalance all of the content in the entire game just so S&B AC is on par with TWF AC. You're talking lots of man hours, and coming from a software engineering background I'm going to agree with the Devs on this one. It's easier to make a weaker class/combination stronger than it is to rebalance the game every time you have this sort of issue arise. Plus if an item was added to the game, and players took the time to acquire that item, you should not devalue it. If you start Indian Giving then you stand a good chance to alienate your player base.

Generally I'm for avoiding nerfs, but the Raiments are IMO such a balance problem that they probably should be nerfed.

[Borror0]

Well the devs have basically said they aren't going to apply nerf bats, according to Cold's Post here.

But they also said "While it's possible that some changes will be made to some of the enhancements that are most out of line, we try to stay away from that when we can."

It is not a no nerf policy, they just will try to not wave the hammer pointlessly.

It is not a trivial matter to rebalance all of the content in the entire game just so S&B AC is on par with TWF AC. [...]It's easier to make a weaker class/combination stronger than it is to rebalance the game every time you have this sort of issue arise.

Yes, but that is not what is happening right now.

They made a change that would push they to redefine S&B. Not Buff it, redefine. You're talking about making the game balanced for TWF AC rather than S&B like it once was.

[gfunk]

There is no Spec for S&B besides a few enhancements to make Armor and Shields
slightly more productive, if the PC increases Dex to take advantage of the Enhancements. S&B is automatic (fighter class). I would like to see them
combine as one. Armor & Shield Mastery or no Dex limitation like Ranger TWF.

That's what I think the problem is. No feats and very limited or poor enhancements.
(not talking about Shield Bash, I don't see any use for it).

TWF has spec's. Feats and Enhancements to increase capability.

All I want are feats to separate the boys from the girls... I'm not looking for feats to make S&B better than TWF or even balanced with TWF.

If you want to play TWF, go ahead. But I want to play S&B and not feel that
any tom, richard or harry can do it just as good. Like TWF switching to S&B
and not missing a beat.

sword and board "specing" in my mind would include:

-shield mastery and improved shield mastery (what else is a shield for if not for blocking?)
-possibly improved shield bashing (though i've never experimented with it)
-intimidate feats (have to hold agro somehow while blocking) + associated enhancement line
-enhancement line for towersheild mastery

I think that alot of people just want to have that sheild just for improved armor class, which doesnt seem to be fully utilizing the S&B fighting style. Intimidating/blocking can be a fantastic boon to the rest of the party... if you have a group that is willing to coordinate their fighting style that way... it doesnt fit in particularily well with the killquick/spamheal playstyle.

[Mistinarperadnacles]

Yes, opiate for the masses, throwing an overpowered ability to the S&B is the fastest and easiest solution. Doesn't mean it's the best one. It'll just imbalance the game more than it was before. It's like pilling up items of different weight, size and form pretending it's building up something solid and you're moving forward. One day, you're going to have to resign it all becuase the game will be poorly designed.

This is a big part of the problem.

The Devs have already casued far too many yawning chasms. mostly, somthing did need to be done, but the consequences of it have generally hurt players a lot.

Because of how the game works, (mob ToHit and mob HP) melee is very much all about having a 70+ AC and being able to fire off as many vorpal/banish/burst attacks as you can in as short a time as possible. This means that super high Dex + dodge + monk + 2WF is going to be so hugely more effective at anything fighting wise it pretty much makes any other build worthless.

[Aspenor]

By that logic, if killing was made legal. It would be a bad idea to go back when killing was illegal.

This generalization is so obnoxious that the only reply I have for it is: Straw Man Fallacy.

Comparing killing and video game mechanics and claiming they are similar is completely ridiculous.

[Alcides]

But they also said "While it's possible that some changes will be made to some of the enhancements that are most out of line, we try to stay away from that when we can."

It is not a no nerf policy, they just will try to not wave the hammer pointlessly.

Yes, but that is not what is happening right now.

They made a change that would push they to redefine S&B. Not Buff it, redefine. You're talking about making the game balanced for TWF AC rather than S&B like it once was.

Well your OP to this whole thread was the community views on balancing/improving S&B. The real issue currently in game is that TWF melee does better damage and "can have" better AC than a S&B melee. Here's my views on this issue instead of dancing around the hat anymore.

1. Shield Specialist S&B AC should be strengthened enough to be equivalent to TWF AC.
2. Shield specialist classes should be given more abilities that allow them to generate significatnly more threat while using S&B than a TWF melee.
3. S&B DPS should be less than TWF DPS, no matter how you slice it 10 attacks should result in more damage than 5 attacks.
4. Shield specialist classes should be granted a passive partial blocking DR while using S&B.
5. Allow shield bashing to do an entire attack chain instead of 1 attack every few seconds.