Discussion: Improving S&B

[maddmatt70]

Adding DR improvments does not address the obvious issue with a robe wearing two handed ranger having more AC than a Full Plate wearing, tower shield holding tank. There should be no way the ranger could have as much AC. There should be a cap on DEX to AC and a Cap based on monk levels as to how much WIS you can use for AC. Dodge bonus should have a cap as well.

I would put a max of 10 for each. So it is still possible to have a very high AC with 10 WIS AC, 10 DEX AC, and 10 Dodge, but you would gimp yourself in other stats to do so.

In pen & paper robe wearers can get more ac then armor wearers so we need to fix what?

[Alcides]

In pen & paper robe wearers can get more ac then armor wearers so we need to fix what?

We need to undertake the arduous task of fixing everything in D&D that is non-conforming to an undefined specification that promises to placate the entire player base so that a mutually beneficial arrangement is achieved.

[Angelus_dead]

In pen & paper robe wearers can get more ac then armor wearers so we need to fix what?

That's been explained to you too many times for someone to spend time telling you again. If you don't agree with the explanations, then you can go back and point out how you think they're wrong.

But if you ignore them, then expect to be ignored yourself.

[ArkoHighStar]

Yup but palaflation, rangflation and barbflation are all bad things for the game. Bad thing + bad thing + bad thing = More bad things.

Bad things != Good things.

The problem lies in the fact that Turbine has now stated that they will not nerf to fix the imbalances, so we are left with no choice but inflate paladins and fighters abilities to get them even close. I am all for nerfing barb crit range 2, tempest AC bonuses, nerfing the icy rainments to make them +4 protection instead of dodge, nerfing monk splash AC bonuses, but if Turbine is unwilling then what else is there to do, other than simply abandon those classes and all paly halfing/dwarf ranger/monk multiclases

[Borror0]

Since Nerf bats are limp and fallop [...]

Nerfing or boosting everyone results in the same thing: You are less powerful. Same with boosting with content!

[Borror0]

The problem lies in the fact that Turbine has now stated that they will not nerf to fix the imbalances

Damageflation is alright, it's out of the d20 system. AC ain't the same.

[oogly54]

The problem lies in the fact that Turbine has now stated that they will not nerf to fix the imbalances, so we are left with no choice but inflate paladins and fighters abilities to get them even close. I am all for nerfing barb crit range 2, tempest AC bonuses, nerfing the icy rainments to make them +4 protection instead of dodge, nerfing monk splash AC bonuses, but if Turbine is unwilling then what else is there to do, other than simply abandon those classes and all paly halfing/dwarf ranger/monk multiclases

Can you point me to the post where they state this?

[maddmatt70]

That's been explained to you too many times for someone to spend time telling you again. If you don't agree with the explanations, then you can go back and point out how you think they're wrong.

But if you ignore them, then expect to be ignored yourself.

Hey I never said that things shouldn't be rebalanced, but the notion that an armor tower shield carrying character has to have more ac then a robe wearing character is just not true.

[Borror0]

[...] but the notion that an armor tower shield carrying character has to have more ac then a robe wearing character is just not true.

Why?

[Dexxaan]

Hey I never said that things shouldn't be rebalanced, but the notion that an armor tower shield carrying character has to have more ac then a robe wearing character is just not true.

Oh oh...here we go.......

Why?

Madmatt is probably referring to Lo-Pan / Buckaroo Banzai and Neo (ok his latest trenchcoat looks like a robe) and a few other hollywood Martial Arts Masters.

[maddmatt70]

Why?

I am really thinking of ddo from a 3.5 pnp standpoint and from a historical martial artist standpoint - Old school asian combat. In 3.5 there is the monk and prestige classes like the duelist which are about not wearing armor or very little armor and these classes can get the highest ac in pen and paper.

Martial artists are very tough to hit. Their speed and quickness neutralize the attackers ability to hit them. Armor wearing attackers in western history get hit more but their armor absorbs more of the blow damage. In ddo armor and shield wearers get dr, but the martial artists (rangers, monks, etc.) don't have dr but should have a slightly higher ac to account for what I would argue is their better ability to avoid attacks then armor wearers.

[Aesop]

How about this

Regardless of whether Robed or Armored there should be a way to reach the higher tiers of AC (which is really a misnomer the A should stand for Avoidance not Armor)

If you go for top tier AC you should be able to get top tier AC

currently the only way to get top tier AC is with a TWF Ranger with a Monk Splash

S&B should be able to reach comparable levels. Currently we have builds that are exceeding maximum S&B potential by 10-20... to top that off the TWF will have better Damage Mitigation in the form of Evasion and top end DPS.

the only advantage S&B has is Blocking DR which negates most DPS options when employed

I understand that no one (well most of us) would like to see Nerfs but at the same time inflation only makes it more difficult on non Elite Tier Players to compete in the game.

I certainly do not like the idea of Nerfing the Monk Splash (though I understand the open hostility towards it)

I do not like all the dodge items I'm seeing in game currently.

The Icy Raiments being the biggest offender because it inflates the TWF while leaving S&B in the dust. Would I perfer a slightly different route had been gone... certainly. I'd perfer Icy Raiments had an +4 Insight Bonus to AC and Reflex Saves as well as a Greater Ice Guard Effect instead of a Dodge Bonus to AC.

The idea to change the Levik set to a Dodge bonus instead of an Insight bonus is an alright fix but I'm not sure its great as these types of items in general make it likely that cookie cutter builds will form. Soon all S&B fighters have to have the same gear and the same build to be useful... I'm not fond of this

Another Option is creating Green Steel Shields ... but again this is a Grinding element that is unappealing to many (myself included as I haven't even been able to craft a bloody sword for my essentially gimped S&B charaxcter nevermind a bloody shield.

However it would be a step in the right direction I suppose. Especially if they were given useful options for the abilities that benefit the varying theories on Shield Fighting

I made some suggestions on page 11 but no one really commented on those ... so hey I tried not to nerf too much in those suggestions and would be happy to here some ways to balance them a little better.

I want more options not fewer Options. A vastly Superior Build to every other one out there makes for fewer options and it should be addressed.

Aesop

[maddmatt70]

They are adding dragontouched armor. The key point to that is armor. Obviously this armor will not suck and will probably be comparable to the icy rainments.

[Aspenor]

They are adding dragontouched armor. The key point to that is armor. Obviously this armor will not suck and will probably be comparable to the icy rainments.

Things that don't suck tend to be pretty good.

[ArkoHighStar]

They are adding dragontouched armor. The key point to that is armor. Obviously this armor will not suck and will probably be comparable to the icy rainments.

lets hope there are no dragon touched robes/outfits that confer AC bonuses, because that would negate any bonuses that you would get from more powerful lighth/med/heavy armor

[Aesop]

lets hope there are no dragon touched robes/outfits that confer AC bonuses, because that would negate any bonuses that you would get from more powerful lighth/med/heavy armor

well not really cause you can't wear the robe and the icy raiments as well... s it'll change things a bit

Aesop

[Borror0]

I am really thinking of ddo from a 3.5 pnp standpoint and from a historical martial artist standpoint

D&D Argument:
Covered this before. Usually, you try to not import failures from another game.

Real Life "argument":
Yup, but armors and shields protect. Their more limited ability to move is already expressed by the Maximum Dexterity Bonus on Tower Shield and Armors!

They are adding dragontouched armor. The key point to that is armor. Obviously this armor will not suck and will probably be comparable to the icy rainments.

You mean like the dragonscale armors lacked outift/robes?

[Turial]

well not really cause you can't wear the robe and the icy raiments as well... s it'll change things a bit

Aesop

I'm with you on that one. I've been hoping for an upgrade to my dragon robe that wasn't the icy rainments.

[sirgog]

My suggestions

1. Is it a good idea for Turbine to change drastically the definitions and roles of the fighting styles in DDO? Why?
   
   Having played a sword&board toon early, and having now tried a 2WF toon that is yet to get all the best gear, I can see that the 2WF with mediocre gear is far, far stronger at level 10 than the S&B fighter with better gear was at 14. Some change needs to happen, yes. 2WF should not be better at everything than S&B - S&B needs some way to shine too.
   
   
2. Is it OK for Turbine to nerf in this situation? Why? If yes, by how much (or how)? And why?
   
   Some key nerfs are needed - IMO the sensible ones (which would also need some balance changes to mob To-Hits) would be to prevent Dodge bonuses stacking (yes, this is a break from Pen&Paper, but IMO it's needed given the huge mistake that was made in making the Icy Raiments and Chattering Ring). Also the Tempest AC bonus should be changed to a Shield bonus, so that it doesn't stack with Shield clickies/wands.
   
3. If you answered no to the previous question, would you change your mind if a full respect system would be implemented? If you answered yes to the previous question, are you in favor of a respect system and would you nerf more if there was one? In both cases, why?
   
   I'm in favor of a full respec system for other reasons.
   
4. Are you scared of inflation? Why?
   
   I don't like serious power creep (except when level caps go up), and think that one of the first things to do is to eliminate some of the recent creep by nerfing the Icy Raiments.
   
5. Do you think it would be a good idea reduce the AC scores that PCs can reach if mobs' to-hits were also lowered? What about just lowering mobs' to-hits? Justify your answers.
   
   I'd rather see a much greater range of mob To-Hits, so that every point of AC helps, no matter how little you have. For instance, instead of having Orthons in Shroud elite with +51 To-Hit, you could have a mixture of Orthon Strikers with +35 to hit that deal 24 more damage than the normal orthons, plus the existing ones, plus Orthon Commanders with +55 to hit that deal half damage (they use the Precision feat) but also deal 1 Con damage per hit.
   
   Suddenly, instead of only increases in AC within the range 54-70 being relevant against the Orthons, players will have an incentive (and a big one) to hit an AC of 48, and will notice that a 48 AC makes them take significantly less damage than a 33 AC. Likewise, 53 AC will be noticeably better than 48, and 74 will be noticeably better than 70.
   
   
   That said, spreading out mob To-Hits more is a bigger ask - I'd consider dropping the To-Hits and max possible ACs an improvement anyway.
   
6. Would you like to see a bunch of feats to improve S&B? Any suggestions? (It can be either in the form of feats or just unrefined ideas that still need to be rethought. It can be as general as "Something giving them DR would be cool." if you want.) If you use feats already existing in PnP, please indicate the book.
   
   Feats might be an idea, but I'd prefer useful mods on shields that help them grant serious defensive capabilities. An analogue of Greater Banes on shields (adds to enhancement bonus and grants DR against a particular foe type) would be a great place to start. (IMO the most striking weakness of S&B for defense is that shield AC is limited to 9, whereas 2WF toons can get 4 from a Shield spell and 7 from Monk wisdom and 2 from Tempest easily, and those numbers all stack for 9 AC constantly and 4 more in bursts).
   
   One feat option would be a feat that granted significant boosts to tactical combat feats (like Stunning Blow and Trip) when the feat user is using a sword and shield - but that only helps on normal foes not boss fights.
   
   
7. Do you think that S&B could use more DPS, also, to be brought back in line?
   
   Yep. Perhaps a feat that grants a 10% stacking speed boost for S&B combat?
   
   
8. Do you think paladins and fighters should become S&B specialists and receive enhancements focused on S&B fight? Explain your answer.
   
   I'd rather S&B be made viable for any class - IMO DDO's strength is the versatility of builds possible.
   
   
9. Do you think S&B should have the ability (or opportunity) to be protected by other means than AC? If yes, list a few.
   
   A couple off the top of my head:
   
   DR on shields that is specific to certain foe types (e.g. a shield with DR 5/- against lawful outsiders)
   Shields (particularly tower shields) that grant Evasion when the wielder is using them to actively block (not all the time of course)
   
10. Would you be in favor of a cap on Dodge AC? Why?

Absolutely.
Items with Dodge bonuses are very, very clearly stated in the Dungeon Master's Guide to be one of the biggest screwups a DM can make. No more should ever be made - and the existing two need serious whacks with the nerf bat.

[maddmatt70]

D&D Argument:


You mean like the dragonscale armors lacked outift/robes?

Turbine is addressing your "sword and board crises".

1. Last I checked you couldn't wear the icy rainment and another set of robes. Robe wearers will be forced to choose one or the other whereas armor wearers will have the dragonscale option which will be undoubtedly at least as good as the icy rainments hence neutralizing the current robe wearers icy rainment advantage.

2. Pally and fighter love. Turbine is adding enhancements and spells to the two primary sword and board classes in DDO this coming mod.

3. Defensive prestige enhancements: The dwarven defender and a paladin defensive prestige enhancement are due to come out in mod 9 these defensive prestige enhancements will again give sword and boards plenty of ac love.

4. More feats: Turbine has maintained there will be new tactical feats in mod8. New sword and board feats are all possible.