Discussion: Improving S&B

[krud]

One thing that might offset a TWF AC nerf is implementing touch attack. What they loose in melee AC they gain in the ability to "dodge" rays and such. I know it's probably not as important as the melee AC, but still it's something that could set the two types of AC apart.

[Desteria]

A bunch of very good to the point observations which I'll skip then:


And I would have to give a resounding "NO, if that's all S&B Fighter has going for him is S&B, then DON"T DO IT!"
But after creating a S&B Fighter using 2 Feats for SM and ISM, what are you going to do with the 13-14 Left-Over Feats?
If I had the Dexterity I would get TWF feats too, which would really start to shine after level 10. Until level 10 I would be just as well served going S&B as I would going TWF, especially as AC matters more and the TWF is usually behind (again ignoring the Monk Splash because that's a separate issue) at those levels.
Then after level 10 when my Shield AC matters less, I can switch to TWF and keep the Shield Mastery Feats for those rare occasions when I do indeed want 6-9 extra DR.
If I didn't have the Dexterity I would invest in at least some THF Feats.
Then when my AC no longer matters I can switch to THF and keep the Shield Mastery Feats for those rare occasions when I do indeed want 6-9 extra DR.
Or get rid of (or never take) SM and ISM and get something else completely and forget S&B.
Or shelf him until better Feats come out.

But um then hes a TWF or a THF guy who happens to have the feats for the tiems he wasnt to pull out a sheild....
Why not build a TWF guy and just take the sheild feats for the few tiems you realyl want to pull a sheidl out, though the reality is the tWF can build for more DPS and WAY more AC to the point that who cares about blocking DR when nothign in teh game can hit you on any thign but a nat 20 when you not even fully buffed, 1 hit in 20 swings doesnt even tax a sorc with heal scrolls at a resnable high succes % let alown 100% on the highest level raids on elite....
Basicaly there is NO real advatage to EVER make S&B past about level 10 and that is the issue that the combat style underperforms in all catigorys.
Note my monk10rgr6 AC tWF kama build that started with a 8str out dmaages my 33 STR dwarf THF buy a considerable margin the fighter has bloodstone/pa/1 ranegr level for +3 favored damage, has tharn's goggels, the monk has NO PA, no bloodstone, no tharn's ok slight better favored damage +6 i belive and about 30 unbuffed AC more i think the ac difrecne stays about the same as they buff up. soo even of the S&B buidl wanted to swap to THF as a secondary losign the vast magority of his AC and havign to have PA as well etc he woudl still lose out to oen of the lowest end TWF damage scales that is out of wack end of statment.

now are wis/dex monk or monk/ builds getitng crazzy AC yes they are but tbh that about the same as it was in PnP well actuly tbh in PnP wizzard coudl get the crazest AC but I wont even go there the problem is it was much harder for a TWF to get a full set of attacks off often they would get the same numebr of attack as a S&B with less or similar AC now the THF PAign guy on the other hand out dmaages every thign when he gets his one attack ;P

[Desteria]

One thing that might offset a TWF AC nerf is implementing touch attack. What they loose in melee AC they gain in the ability to "dodge" rays and such. I know it's probably not as important as the melee AC, but still it's something that could set the two types of AC apart.

god dont get me started on how ddo basterdised touch/incorpreal touch attacks and the relivent AC types....

[Mithran]

All my main melee characters TWF's:

1. GTWF 12 Paladin/2 Fighter/2 Monk
2. Tempest 13 Ranger/3 Paladin
3. Weapon Finesse 3 Ranger/3 Paladin/1 Monk, for whom I intend 12 Ranger/3 Paladin/1 Monk

Having said that, and in order to object to the many protests I see here, I need to ask something. . .

When did S&B's A/C get better than GTWF? I can remember a friend doing a build whose A/C was higher than mine, and he had no armor. As I said a few pages back, this was in about 1983, but I'm curious about what the objection is you guys are basing this argument on. Are you a bunch of unemployed S&B specialists who can't find groups? My main uses S&B any time she's going from dps to tank mode. What is your collective problem with this?

Fedaykin (my main) certainly prefers to use GTWF to S&B, but her armor is nevertheless better with a shield in Crippling Chain than while using two weapons, at least until I get my Radiance II w +4 to A/C as an offhand. She also still needs the Chattering Ring. Her Dexterity is high enough for her to (eventually) benefit from discarding the Chain Shirt, but I haven't looked at getting the necessary equipment (which would mean a considerable investment of time).

Nevertheless, Fedaykin is the result of my having had to do a lot of builds and a lot of rerolling and a lot of work in playing this game. I hadn't rolled Brutality until Meridia's expansion (the influx of +2 Tomes was just too sexy to not do a new roll with them), but you guys are making me angry by proposing that Turbine undo all my work. Brutality's dps is a lot higher than Fedaykin's, her A/C is almost as good, but the gear I've had to assemble for both my characters was an enormous investment of time. Despite her superior dps, Brutality is not my main; she's my off-main, and while I love playing her, I don't agree that there isn't a balance, here.

[eonfreon]

But um then hes a TWF or a THF guy who happens to have the feats for the tiems he wasnt to pull out a sheild....
Why not build a TWF guy and just take the sheild feats for the few tiems you realyl want to pull a sheidl out, though the reality is the tWF can build for more DPS and WAY more AC to the point that who cares about blocking DR when nothign in teh game can hit you on any thign but a nat 20 when you not even fully buffed, 1 hit in 20 swings doesnt even tax a sorc with heal scrolls at a resnable high succes % let alown 100% on the highest level raids on elite....
Basicaly there is NO real advatage to EVER make S&B past about level 10 and that is the issue that the combat style underperforms in all catigorys.
Note my monk10rgr6 AC tWF kama build that started with a 8str out dmaages my 33 STR dwarf THF buy a considerable margin the fighter has bloodstone/pa/1 ranegr level for +3 favored damage, has tharn's goggels, the monk has NO PA, no bloodstone, no tharn's ok slight better favored damage +6 i belive and about 30 unbuffed AC more i think the ac difrecne stays about the same as they buff up.

Yep, I agree.
But like I said, let's ignore the Monk for now because we all know the Monk Splash should be nerfed.
So other than to say the Monk Wisdom AC should be nerfed for all but pure Monks, what else is on the table?
Because without changing the way Monk Wisdom functions, then all melee classes are inferior to the Tempest Ranger Monk Splash.
Is the Pure Monk Overpowered as well?
Considering how few players seem to be playing them, I'd have to say "NO".
But that may just be the learning curve, so I'll wait and see.

[maddmatt70]

Yep, I agree.
But like I said, let's ignore the Monk for now because we all know the Monk Splash should be nerfed.
So other than to say the Monk Wisdom AC should be nerfed for all but pure Monks, what else is on the table?

It is that way in pen paper 3.0-3.5 so why should it be nerfed in ddo. No reason whatsoever. I agree with the previous poster who asked why S&B should get any attention - on the basis of what.

In pnp S&B at high levels disappears as well. Spellcasters in pnp do so much damage and have so much utility that melee and archers serve more of a hit the opposing group with a hammer mentality not as much of this I will be the last bulwark of defense and shield my spellcaster from the battle or whatever it is that S&B think they can do in the limitation of a video game which lacks super sophisticated monster AI.

I personally feel that thf merits more attention then S&B especially in light of the crummy last attack for thf. That is unfinished business that Turbine should fix. I don't enjoy cheating or tying to cheat the last attack option so I can do more dps - that lessons my enjoyment of thf, but I have to do it no choice in the matter. I have one character that fights two handed about 33%-50% of the time and that is enough for me. After they fix the crummy attack motion they should add some more thf feats.

I should just ignore these S&B threads that Borro0 keeps posting. After the 6 or 7 thread they don't have any purpose anymore really. Is it what everyone in ddo is concerned about no, but rather a really small portion of the population. By posting these threads over and over does that raise the S&B issue which isn't an issue I guess Borror thinks so.

[Borror0]

It is that way in pen paper 3.0-3.5 so why should it be nerfed in ddo.

See the previous link on appeal to traditions. (EDIT: D'oh, ninja'd myself. See under.)

By posting these threads over and over does that raise the S&B issue which isn't an issue I guess Borror thinks so.

For your information, it's the first thread on the issue I posted.

[Borror0]

I can remember a friend doing a build whose A/C was higher than mine, and he had no armor. As I said a few pages back, this was in about 1983, but I'm curious about what the objection is you guys are basing this argument on.

Appeal to tradition.

It's been like this for a long time, thus this is the correct thing. It's a fallacy.

Brutality is not my main; she's my off-main, and while I love playing her, I don't agree that there isn't a balance, here.

So, builds that can:

• Deal more DPS
• Reach higher AC
• Get Evasion with no sacrifice (or less sacrifice)

...than all of those from a different fighting style while that other fighting style gets nothing to balance out is a proof of proper balance?

You've got a very odd definition of balance.

[Desteria]

Yep, I agree.
But like I said, let's ignore the Monk for now because we all know the Monk Splash should be nerfed.
So other than to say the Monk Wisdom AC should be nerfed for all but pure Monks, what else is on the table?
Because without changing the way Monk Wisdom functions, then all melee classes are inferior to the Tempest Ranger Monk Splash.
Is the Pure Monk Overpowered as well?
Considering how few players seem to be playing them, I'd have to say "NO".
But that may just be the learning curve, so I'll wait and see.

The pure monk can be very strong if built basicaly the same as a tempest monk or ranegr splash monk, littel less dps btu ass soon as wind stance starts stackign with haste ad the presumable 10% stacking at level 18 they will be very similar in a lto of ways...

as an asside i dont actuyl think the monk splash Wis to ac shoudl be nerfed I'm ok with it the way it is what needs help is Shields and heavy armro need ways that are no more costly to the build then the monk splash to get more AC and more DPS...
Animated sheild could be a big step towards that THF adn a sheild for AC though there are some isses in that works just as well on a tWF guy but it does not work with monks sicne a sheidl any sheild nukes the WIS to AC.
But you knwo big stacks AC bonueson sheilds or heavy armors coudl help a lot TWF and S&B were faily even untill ICY and monks.. monks need wisdone and place other posibel limitation on you, Icy was just plain stupid

[maddmatt70]

For your information, it's the first thread on the issue I posted.

You can change the name of the thread, but not the meaning of the thread. Nearly every thread you have started over the last two months has been about this issue. Paladin sword and board, sword and board, intimidate sword and board, whatever its all the same issue when you dig into it. An issue that naturally dissipates in D%D at high levels because melee and archers are hammers not shields at those levels. That is the tradition of D&D.

[eonfreon]

I am going to apologize right now for the following line. I may get infraction point for it, but I don't care.

If you can't read what I said and figure out what I say, discern the right and the wrong and question yourself on the proper functioning of the game, then you got a problem. If you're taking what I say for truth without understanding anything else and staying at the first level you will have serious issues in life. That's how you end up with one of the most democratic country electing a psychopath wanting to conquer the world and eliminate those who don't belong to his description of the superior race in very cruel ways (It's not like they didn't know about that, he wrote a book about it before the elections!) or killing yourself for someone else's religion ideals thinning you'll get 72 virgins waiting for you in Heaven...

Think **** it!

I said something and you didn't even know if I was lying to you. You have more serious issues than the balancing of TWF vs S&B...

You are wrong on that. I am assuming you know enough about both building a solid S&B character and a solid TWF and thus the capacity to argue with me without me having to explain to you some of the very basics of character building in DDO like how much Dexterity a S&B character has or how much Dexterity does a Str-based TWF should have.

Sorry if I am overestimating you. Tell me where you get stuck, I'll inform you.

You certainly didn't read the balance page and clearly don't understand anything about this whole debate. Let me restate it!

the problem with a Dex-based S&B is that it is a S&B character and thus will not switch between TWF and S&B. Why? Because if you are a TWF character that means you won't go S&B as that would mean purposely gimping yourself out for no reasons. S&B means holing a shield and swinging a weapon. Not holding shift and shield blocking. As I have said earlier, S&B and Shield Blocking are not the same word. S-W-O-R-D A-N-D B-O-A-R-D versus S-H-I-E-L-D B-L-O-C-K-I-N-G!

One refers to the act of fighting with a one handed weapon while using the protection of a shield, the other ones refer to blocking with a shield. There are simply no fighting advantage to S&B. AC? TWF wins. Evasion? Easier to get with TWF. DPS? TWF wins again. Why would you go Dex-based S&B? Lower DPS than Str-based S&B. Lower DPS than TWF. Barely anymore AC than Str-based S&B. Less AC than TWF.

I'll say it again: No reason.

So, no, a Dex-based S&B character is not capable of switching between TWF and S&B, it's S&B character. And even if it would, it would be a pretty stupid idea because that character would be doing much better by sticking with TWF all the time and taking a shield out to block when needed. And before you ask, no, taking SM and ISM does not make you 'S&B spec', it makes you 'Shield Blocking spec'.

Sorry to be this rude, but it's a bad day and you're making me repeat over and over again.

Hey, no problem, and I hope you don't get any infraction points.

I take no offense.

I don't agree with a single thing you've said about me, but that's ok, obviously I've rubbed you the wrong way, just as you did to me earlier.

Things happen. As I've said this has indeed been an interesting discussion and I've learned a lot from it.

So I guess my question is:
What makes one a S&B spec?

[eonfreon]

Also what do you do about the Ranger with 38 Dex versus the Fighter with 22 or 24 Dex?

[Borror0]

You can change the name of the thread, but not the meaning of the thread. Nearly every thread you have started over the last two months has been about this issue. Paladin sword and board, sword and board, intimidate sword and board, whatever its all the same issue when you dig into it.

Oh really?

Here are the last few seventeen threads I posted.

• Discussion: Improving S&B -- This very thread.
• Discussion: Enhancements and Reward -- Discussion on enhancement cost in general
• "Why balance is something desirable?" -- Explanation as to why balance is needed
• Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender -- Build thread
• For Icey -- Build request from a guildy.
• On what does Quickdraw, Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload works? Do they stack? -- Rhetorical question to the Dev about unclear feat description
• 15 monk/1 rogue Halfling Intimidate Monk -- Build thread
• Please, stop posting build with the character planner layout! -- Request against unclear build OP's
• <corestrings.dll is missing string ID 131 > [131] -- Techincal problem
• Feedback: Barlak Z'rro - Str-based Tempest Ranger -- Build thread
• Request: I want my Ring of Evasion -- Title speaks for itself
• Favored Enemy -- Asking question about Favored enemy for a friend of mine
• Huh?! -- Thread about mistakes in the Compendium
• Turbine, your Compendium needs some love! -- Compendium, once again.
• Tharagrim - Levik's Defender is made of... mithral? -- Question about Levik's Defender
• DDOwiki - In Development (WDA Replacement) -- Something to replace the WDAs
• 15 Bab -- A thread about 15 BAB slowing us down.

I guess you were right.

An issue that naturally dissipates in D%D at high levels. That is the tradition of D&D.

Do I need to say appeal top traditions once more?

[Borror0]

So I guess my question is:
What makes one a S&B spec?

Fighting with his sword and his shield? (Not shield bashing, but swinging a weapon to deal damage.)

Being spec'd for both S&B and TWF would mean there are any advantage if going S&B, which there is not. Unless, again, you consider blocking as S&B...
If that's the case, it makes of S&B a very 'fun' figthing style.

Also what do you do about the Ranger with 38 Dex versus the Fighter with 22 or 24 Dex?

I still don't get the point of that comparison.

[maddmatt70]

Not thread you post in but threads you are the original poster in there is a difference.

What I am saying is why is this thread necessary. You just posted something about balancing and another enhancements argument which discusses enhancements such as armor mastery and the like. Other people keep posting S&b threads. The paladin love thread which sounds strangely like the sword and board threads (one of the best paladins I ran around with D&D at high levels wielded a great sword, rode a dragon and smited like crazy so what paladins have to do with S&B I am not really sure). Etc. Etc. Etc..

[Borror0]

LOL.
I think it's that your latest threads or at least the latest one's you've participated in have been derailed into S&B discussions that make it seem like this is all you talk about.

I know, which is why I posted this thread. It seems maddmatt didn't read the OP and just wants to rant.

EDIT: Ninja again! What's wrong with these forums?!

[Borror0]

Other people keep posting S&b threads.

So? There are many reasons to post a new thread, which can be found on the OP the thread... at least, usually.

[...] so what paladins have to do with S&B I am not really sure

Congratulations, you've just said one of my most frequently repeated comment in paladins thread! If you're linking paladin to S&B, you're not getting it.

[eonfreon]

Oh really?

Here are the last few seventeen threads I posted.

• Discussion: Improving S&B -- This very thread.
• Discussion: Enhancements and Reward -- Discussion on enhancement cost in general
• "Why balance is something desirable?" -- Explanation as to why balance is needed
• Borror Z'rro - Dwarven Defender -- Build thread
• For Icey -- Build request from a guildy.
• On what does Quickdraw, Rapid Shot and Rapid Reload works? Do they stack? -- Rhetorical question to the Dev about unclear feat description
• 15 monk/1 rogue Halfling Intimidate Monk -- Build thread
• Please, stop posting build with the character planner layout! -- Request against unclear build OP's
• <corestrings.dll is missing string ID 131 > [131] -- Techincal problem
• Feedback: Barlak Z'rro - Str-based Tempest Ranger -- Build thread
• Request: I want my Ring of Evasion -- Title speaks for itself
• Favored Enemy -- Asking question about Favored enemy for a friend of mine
• Huh?! -- Thread about mistakes in the Compendium
• Turbine, your Compendium needs some love! -- Compendium, once again.
• Tharagrim - Levik's Defender is made of... mithral? -- Question about Levik's Defender
• DDOwiki - In Development (WDA Replacement) -- Something to replace the WDAs
• 15 Bab -- A thread about 15 BAB slowing us down.

I guess you were right.


Do I need to say appeal top traditions once more?

LOL.
I think it's that your latest threads or at least the latest one's you've participated in have been derailed into S&B discussions that make it seem like this is all you talk about.
ou said so in the beginning of this thread.
I quote:
Ok, seeing that about everything thread in the DDO Development Discussion section of the forums gets derailed into a S&B versus TWF discussion, I'm guessing that we make a real thread to talk about it rather than just derail every thread on the forums.

[Mithran]

Appeal to tradition.

It's been like this for a long time, thus this is the correct thing. It's a fallacy.

The question in my mind is are you arguing about the unfairness of the Enhancement system (proceeding from the availability of Tempest) or the unfairness that has existed, to my knowledge, since the game started?

Here's a better example of a fallacy:

1. God doesn't exist.
2. . . .and anyway, he's a jerk

or

1. I say you're wrong
2. Therefore objectively, you're wrong.

What I was addressing is:

Is this an issue you have with this game and the game it was based on, or do you regard this as an issue particular to DDO and NOT to D&D in its many incarnations?

Where you believe I have a strange definition of 'balance,' I disagree. Certainly my guild does Vision runs on Elite and on occasion with an mt who uses no shield; so what? Are we seeing Shroud, Vision, Reaver, or Hound raids that exclude Fighters, Paladins and Barbarians, or just Paladins? Certainly some new versions of 'tank' are better than the old builds, as the game has developed, our strategies and counter-strategies have changed, and our newer builds have been influenced by the changes in the game.

Again, the fact that you've called me mistaken certainly indicates you believe it to be the case, but your belief doesn't make it so, objectively.

[maddmatt70]

LOL.
I think it's that your latest threads or at least the latest one's you've participated in have been derailed into S&B discussions that make it seem like this is all you talk about.
ou said so in the beginning of this thread.
I quote:
Ok, seeing that about everything thread in the DDO Development Discussion section of the forums gets derailed into a S&B versus TWF discussion, I'm guessing that we make a real thread to talk about it rather than just derail every thread on the forums.

Yes, this is totally accurate. Every thread Borroro starts and many he posts in derail into S&B discussions. Is this a coincidence? I think not...