Discussion: Improving S&B

[eonfreon]

Yes, but getting to 22 Dex is much easier than getting to 26.

Not only that, but getting to 26 Dexterity cuts Tower Shield and leads to a decrease of AC by two, as Angelus dead has previously mentioned! (Or 3 if you used dragonplate armor.) Now, you could lower the AC to 1 (or two if you used dragonplate armor) by going with 24 Dex, but that is still an AC loss.

Not to mention that 24 Dex is quite expensive to get. It requires 16 base Dex, a +2 tome and choosing rogue over monk.

True, but TWF doesn't have to face that loss.

True, because TWF doesn't have it to begin with.

Now a Tempest Ranger has to take:
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack

Leaving 4 Feats to Play around with (or 5 for a Human).
So let's take a Dwarf TWF Tempest Ranger with MBP as an example.

He can take TWD as well for a net AC bonus of +3 while TWF.
Now if he wants to throw on a shield for the +7 AC he loses bonuses for TWF and Tempest (or he should when it gets fixed), so a net AC gain of +4.

The max AC Bonus a Tempest Ranger Dwarf can get from the MBP is +18 (besides alchemical ritual) if he has a 28 Dex and DAM III.
MBP: +10 Armor +8 Dex =+18
Shield: +7
AC:+25

Without Shield: +3 from TWD and Tempest
So +21

Now the Fighter: let's assume what you said that since 22 Dex is easier that's what he has.
MFB: +13 armor + 6 Dex = +19
MTS: +9
AC:+28

That Fighter changing AC for Evasion has:
MBP: +16
Shield: +7
AC: +23

Yes he drops 5 AC for the use of Evasion, but only two less versus a HIGHER DEX RANGER who also wants shield usage.
If they have equal Dex they have equal AC while using a Reg Shield for AC and Evasion usage.
If they have equal Dex the Tempest Ranger has 2 or 3 more points of AC max than the Fighter while TWF.
Any Fighter who is AC minded will take Dodge so that cancels out.
They both can take CE so that cancels out.
And most S&B Fighters can probably squeeze in TWD if he wants, after taking SM, ISM, Dodge, CE, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, and TWD he still has 7, or 8 Feats if Human, to spend as he sees fit.
So taking TWD cancels out if the Fighter feels like it, leaving the Tempest TWF ahead by 2 points of AC if Both Fighter and Ranger have the same Dex while TWF.
They both can get Chaos Guards, so that cancels out.
They both can get Chattering Ring, so that cancels out.

The lucky Str-based 24 Dex Dwarf Tempest Ranger who also gets the +4 Dodge Bonus from Icy Rainments AND +8 Armor Bracers gets +12 +8 Dex=+20
2 more points of AC.
So:
MBP + Shield = +27
MBP TWF = +23

[Angelus_dead]

He can take TWD as well for a net AC bonus of +3 while TWF.
Now if he wants to throw on a shield for the +7 AC he loses bonuses for TWF and Tempest (or he should when it gets fixed), so a net AC gain of +4.

Looks like you're ignoring the Shield spell, which turns that net AC into +0.

[eonfreon]

Looks like you're ignoring the Shield spell, which turns that net AC into +0.

True, I forgot about spamming a 1 minute Shield Clickie and constantly losing CE.
Or getting a high enough UMD to use a high level shield wand.
I'm glad you brought that up because before reading it on the forums I always forgot to use my Shield Clickies.
So I have a serious question:
Where can I buy those high level Shield Wands and what's the UMD required?
If you don't feel like looking up the UMD or can't remember, just tell me where to buy them and I will check myself.

[eonfreon]

Looks like you're ignoring the Shield spell, which turns that net AC into +0.

What, no:
Incorrect. You are ignoring the Shield spell.
or
That is completely and horribly wrong. You are ignoring the Shield spell.
You old softy you .
I'm sorry, shouldn't poke fun, but it's nice to get into a polite discussion with you.
And that is by far the less snarky correction you've made yet.

[Borror0]

True, because TWF doesn't have it to begin with.

Nope. Because TWF is most likely aredy in light armor or is wearing no armor to benefit of the overpoweredness of Icy Rainment!

He can take TWD as well for a net AC bonus of +3 while TWF.
Now if he wants to throw on a shield for the +7 AC he loses bonuses for TWF and Tempest (or he should when it gets fixed), so a net AC gain of +4.

Or, a gain of 0 because you can add the Shield spell! Ok, to be fair it's 1 because of the AC ritual that you forgot.

The rest is filled with tons of mistakes that are too complicated to correct, given the high number but right there, your numbers are 3 points higher than they should in favor of S&B. I assume that you're going to ask why I am not going to refute your mistakes, and I'll just reply the following: you are not comparing the right things.

You're comparing a Str-based ranger to a dex-based S&B fighter. That is wrong.

Want to compare something more accurate? Compare the high Dexterity monk splashed ranger to the Dex-based S&B fighter! Don't forget to mention that the ranger has much higher DPS than the fighter (most likely over twice more) and that the ranger has much more AC.

[eonfreon]

Or, a gain of 0 because you can add the Shield spell! Ok, to be fair it's 1 because of the AC ritual that you forgot.

No, didn't forget but both can benefit from the AC ritual so it cancels out.
I did indeed forget the Shield Spell.
I obviously need to stock up on those Shield Wands.
Where can I buy them and what's the UMD?
Just tell me where to buy them and I'll check the UMD myself.

[Borror0]

Where can I buy those high level Shield Wands [...]

Auction House or questing. If you play more than one character, you'll be able to supply your TWF easily.

[eonfreon]

Auction House or questing. If you play more than one character, you'll be able to supply your TWF easily.

Only the Auction House or questing?
Darn.

[Borror0]

Only the Auction House or questing?
Darn.

Pretty sure you can get lower levels somewhere, but my TWF is a Str-based bard and ranger not spec'd for AC, so I do not know the exact places.

[Cold_Stele]

Putting aside the AC issue, this is why TWF is powerful compared to it's PnP counterpart -

In PnP the attacks/round in the attack chain work in reverse to DDO so it's +0/-5/-10/-15 compared to DDO's current +0/+0/+5/+10/+10 chain.

TWF/ITWF/GTWF grants extra attacks at +0/-5/-10 respectively. So GTWF gives an extra attack at -10 to hit.

That really isn't so great is it?

In DDO however that later attack from GTWF is at +10 to hit.

That's a phenomenal difference of +20 to hit over the PnP version.

[eonfreon]

Pretty sure you can get lower levels somewhere, but my TWF is a Str-based bard and ranger not spec'd for AC, so I do not know the exact places.

And thank you for all your answers.
to Borro and A_D both.
I feel like I've learned a lot.
I look forward to reading your posts and having mine picked apart further.
Until tomorrow (or whenever). The bed, she does call.
Or more accurately, she who is in the bed does call and remind me that I work tomorrow (as if I could forgot ).
EDIT: How the Heck did I just Ninja myself? LOL.

[eonfreon]

Nope. Because TWF is most likely aredy in light armor or is wearing no armor to benefit of the overpoweredness of Icy Rainment!

Or, a gain of 0 because you can add the Shield spell! Ok, to be fair it's 1 because of the AC ritual that you forgot.

The rest is filled with tons of mistakes that are too complicated to correct, given the high number but right there, your numbers are 3 points higher than they should in favor of S&B. I assume that you're going to ask why I am not going to refute your mistakes, and I'll just reply the following: you are not comparing the right things.

You're comparing a Str-based ranger to a dex-based S&B fighter. That is wrong.

Want to compare something more accurate? Compare the high Dexterity monk splashed ranger to the Dex-based S&B fighter! Don't forget to mention that the ranger has much higher DPS than the fighter (most likely over twice more) and that the ranger has much more AC.

OK.
Can we please forget the Monk-splashes for now?
So what is a Dex-Based S&B Fighter's Dex.
I was only comparing the Dex-Based S&B to the Strength Ranger to compare the same or comparable Dex and Strength while giving the Tempest 2 AC Bonus while TWF.
So let's compare a Dex-Based TWF to a Dex-Based S&B.
The reason I keep starting the S&B with a 17 Dex is because you said previously (either here or in another thread) that a S&B normally needs as much Dex as a TWF. Therefore 17 is the minimum.
So does a Dex-Based TWF start with 20 Dex for Halfling/Elf and 18 Dex for everything else?
My Drow Ranger/Rogue started with 20.
So:
20 +4 Level ups + 3 Ranger + 2 Drow +6 Item +2 Tome = 37
Let's give him a +3 Tome for 38
So he's in Robes:
Base: +10
Dex: +18
Bracers: +9 with Ritual (don't have yet, but I'll assume it)
Dodge: +1
CE: +5
Tempest: +2
TWD: +1
Chattering Ring: +3 (Don't have, but irrelevent)
Icy Rainments: +5 (Same as above and I'm assuming it can be Attuned and the Ritual Applied, right?)
Shield Wand: +4 (So no need for a shield)
AC = +58

Now I'm going to assume that the Dex-Based S&B can reach 22 Dex, as that is the max benefit he can get from being any Fighter besides a Dwarf in MFP. Since he apparently doesn't want evasion that's what he should use.

MFP: +14 with Ritual
Dex: +6
Dodge: +1
Chattering Ring: +3
Chaos Guards: +2
MTS: +10 with Ritual
CE:+5
AC= +41

Yes now the Ranger has a 17 point AC advantage.
But what did you expect?
He has a 38 Dex compared to a 22 Dex.
Why should he not have a more AC?

[eonfreon]

putting Aside The Ac Issue, This Is Why Twf Is Powerful Compared To It's Pnp Counterpart -

In Pnp The Attacks/round In The Attack Chain Work In Reverse To Ddo So It's +0/-5/-10/-15 Compared To Ddo's Current +0/+0/+5/+10/+10 Chain.

Twf/itwf/gtwf Grants Extra Attacks At +0/-5/-10 Respectively. So Gtwf Gives An Extra Attack At -10 To Hit.

That Really Isn't So Great Is It?

In Ddo However That Later Attack From Gtwf Is At +10 To Hit.

that's A Phenomenal Difference Of +20 To Hit Over The Pnp Version.

Exactly!!

[Borror0]

So what is a Dex-Based S&B Fighter's Dex.

That's sort of irrelevant. A Dex-based S&B is oftenly refered as a gimp, as it can be seen here.

If you need explanations as to why, after reading the whole linked thread, don't hesitate.

I was only comparing the Dex-Based S&B to the Strength Ranger to compare the same or comparable Dex and Strength while giving the Tempest 2 AC Bonus while TWF.

Why compare a solid build to a gimped build? That makes no sense.

The reason I keep starting the S&B with a 17 Dex is because you said previously (either here or in another thread) that a S&B normally needs as much Dex as a TWF. Therefore 17 is the minimum.

No! You are misunderstanding what I said (again).

My S&B character has 15 Dex, which is what a lot of S&B character have and what a lot of TWF have. (A few have 16 Dex 'cause they could only get +1 tomes but...) As for others, they have 13-14 Dex which is also what a lot of Str-based ranger have. Shortly put, it is not because you are a Str-based TWF character that you have made greater sacrifice than a Str-based S&B as to Dexterity. Both sacrifice the same.

Why should he not have a more AC?

"Why is balance desirable?"

[Desteria]

That's sort of irrelevant. A Dex-based S&B is oftenly refered as a gimp, as it can be seen here.

If you need explanations as to why, after reading the whole linked thread, don't hesitate.

THANK-YOU Borror0 you just made my night shift much more entertaining.

[eonfreon]

That's sort of irrelevant. A Dex-based S&B is oftenly refered as a gimp, as it can be seen here.

If you need explanations as to why, after reading the whole linked thread, don't hesitate.

Why compare a solid build to a gimped build? That makes no sense.

No! You are misunderstanding what I said (again).

My S&B character has 15 Dex, which is what a lot of S&B character have and what a lot of TWF have. (A few have 16 Dex 'cause they could only get +1 tomes but...) As for others, they have 13-14 Dex which is also what a lot of Str-based ranger have. Shortly put, it is not because you are a Str-based TWF character that you have made greater sacrifice than a Str-based S&B as to Dexterity. Both sacrifice the same.

"Why is balance desirable?"

How am I misunderstanding what you said?
I said:
Originally Posted by eonfreon
• Yes, because the TWF spent the FEATS to be more versatile.

Oh, really?

Rangers get it for free. Non-rangers have so little good feat to chose from that spending three fetas are not much of a sacrifice.

Originally Posted by eonfreon
• And put build points into Dexterity.

S&B needs that too, about as much.

Originally Posted by eonfreon
• And has practically no DR while dual-wielding

Neither does S&B.

Originally Posted by eonfreon
It's all about the choices we make.

Yes. And balance is all about making more choices suck less so that we have more options.

This is directly from your response on that very same thread about "Balance".
No word has been altered.
So, perhaps I misunderstood what you meant, but certainly NOT WHAT YOU SAID.
Your guy started with 15 Dex.
A +6 Item and a +1 Tome gets you to the 22 Dex I was talking about.
A simply +2 Tome (an obviously you play enough to acquire one- I've played 2 years ranging from a couple a times a month to 10 hours a night and I've found one +2 Dex Tome) will get you to 17 Dex so you can change your Feats to TWF or something, if you so desire, until they introduce new incentives to go S&B again.
I agree with you more as you explain things but don't start with this condescending attitude.
This is the first time in the posts of yours that you've finally stated your Starting Dex.
Maybe it's been said before but certainly not in our exchanges.
If you expect me to hunt down your Posts before I can ask you questions and discuss things with you, then forget it.
Your entire line, which I "misunderstood", was:
S&B needs that too, about as much.
That was the whole of it.
Since I consider a Dex-Based TWF Fighter someone who starts with a minimum of 17 and adds points to it, even level up points since he's probably more concerned with Dex than Strength, so he gets Weapon Finesse and forgets Strength except for enough points to do some extra damage.
And I assume that your S&B would want to fill out that MFP and MTS Dex Maximums.
So starting with a 17 Dex:
Dex: 17 +6 Item and a +1 Tome = 24 would make sense to me.
If you started with a 16 Strength:
Str: 16 + 3 Fighter +4 level + 6 Item +1 Tome = 30
So a 17 Starting Dex would not impact your strength.
And you could still start with a 14 Con.
Con: 14 + 6 Item = 20 before any Tomes or Racial adjustments. That's enough for 48 extra Hit Points above base.
So that wouldn't be a great hardship.

[eonfreon]

Sorry to get so touchy, but I'm tired of your assuming I've followed your every post.
During our discussions, this is the first time you've posted another link even.
And a S&B with a 17 Starting Dex that can reach 22 or 24 Dex is eligible for TWF.
As far as I can tell what currently designates a S&B is a Fighter wearing FullPlate (preferably MFP) of some kind and a Tower Shield with the Dodge, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats who swings a one-handed weapon!
That leaves 12 to 13 Feats free for a pure level 16 Fighter!
If he takes the full line of TWF Feats including OTWF, he spends 4 Feats!
He now has 8 to 9 left!
And spends 24 AP's on Fighter Armor Mastery and Tower Shield Mastery.
That leaves 40 AP's to spend where he will. He even saves some AP's if he's a Dwarf: If he only needs 3 extra points on his MFP he can spend 6 AP's for FAM I & II and 2 AP's for DAM I =8 thus saving 4 AP's.

I will read the link above about the "gimp" sometime soon.
But a S&B Fighter who can choose between S&B and TWF doesn't sound like a "gimp" to me. His stats are basically the equivalent to a Strength Ranger with at least 50 more hit points and no spells or Evasion! And he can get Evasion with a Monk or Rogue splash and the loss of 8 Hit Points and 3 points of AC!
And a +3 Barkskin from a potion if he's in a party without a Ranger or a stingy one or an out-of-spellpoints one.
Resists are nice but if you're in a party it's simplicity itself to get a buff.
The only awesome Ranger spells are Ram's Might and Freedom of Movement currently. And you have to be 14th level Ranger to get that. that's why I went from Building a Ranger 6/ Fighter 10 to building a Ranger 14/ Fighter 2.
I was going to go to 6th level then I figured, hey might as well go to 9th level so I can get ITWF, without having to start with a 17 Dex, and Evasion. Then I figured hey might as well go to 11th level for GTWF. Heck, might as well go to 12 for the full Barkskin. And then after a bit of thought I figured, why not go all the way to 14 for Freedom of Movement and just 2 Fighter Levels for Fighter to unlock Intimidate, Fighter Haste I, Fighter Intimidate I, and Fighter Strength I.
Is a Strength-Based Ranger superior to a "Dex-Based" S&B?
Yes, especially if all the S&B has going for him is S&B.
And I'm not saying you don't have good suggestions or advice, or that you're even wrong, I'm just saying STOP WITH THE CONDESCENDING ATTITUDE and I will be much more prone to try and understand where you're coming from.

[Aesop]

TWF has a POTENTIAL to get significantly higher AC than Sword and Board

I think we can call that a Fact.

Are there conditions?

Yes. But even those that take fewer conditions can have similar or higher AC than many S&B characters

Are those choices significantly costly to other aspect of the character?

debatable


TWF has the POTENTIAL to have higher DPS than Swoard and Board

I'm fairly confident in the resonding FACT


TWF has the POTENTIAL to have higher Proc effects than S&B

well considering they swing at about 180% the rate that S&B does I'd say FACT


S&B has a Higher Blocking DR POTENTIAL than TWF

Well basic numbers says Fact


SO really since TWF ghas the HIghest DPS POTENTIAL the highest AC POTENTIAL and the highest Proc POTENTIAL... The only advantage S&B has is Blocking DR

Now the relative Difference between an Optimized TWF and an Optimized S&B is like 10 AC (I think... could be a little off there. I've heard of Optimized Standing AC around 80 but that may be light on the DPS) and assuming they are both Dwarf then the Blocking DR difference is likely somewhere between 0 and 9 in a situation where blocking is more important than DPS... limited but possible

So is a 9 DR difference, in a limited situation of which more than 98% (not that the game can be truly measured in this type of ratio... but you get the point) of the game is not, a valid reason to go S&B?

Aesop

[eonfreon]

And yes, balance is desirable.
But that still doesn't answer the difference between a 38 Dex and a 22 Dex AC Potential.
What is it you desire?
A cap on Max Dex Bonuses on Robes and outfits too?
That way you have to be completely naked down to your skivvies to benefit, with absolutely no other benefits possible from your Armor/Robe/Outfit slot?

Yes, I understand about the Monk problem.
What else?
From the sound of it you're as upset about my 38 Dex (well potential still haven't got a +3 Tome) Drow Ranger as you are about the UnHoly Monk AC.

[eonfreon]

A bunch of very good to the point observations which I'll skip then:

So is a 9 DR difference, in a limited situation of which more than 98% (not that the game can be truly measured in this type of ratio... but you get the point) of the game is not, a valid reason to go S&B?

Aesop

And I would have to give a resounding "NO, if that's all S&B Fighter has going for him is S&B, then DON"T DO IT!"
But after creating a S&B Fighter using 3 Feats for Dodge, SM and ISM, what are you going to do with the 12-13 Left-Over Feats?
If I had the Dexterity I would get TWF feats too, which would really start to shine after level 10. Until level 10 I would be just as well served going S&B as I would going TWF, especially as AC matters more and the TWF is usually behind (again ignoring the Monk Splash because that's a separate issue) at those levels.
Then after level 10 when my Shield AC matters less, I can switch to TWF and keep the Shield Mastery Feats for those rare occasions when I do indeed want 6-9 extra DR.
If I didn't have the Dexterity I would invest in at least some THF Feats.
Then when my AC no longer matters I can switch to THF and keep the Shield Mastery Feats for those rare occasions when I do indeed want 6-9 extra DR.
Or get rid of (or never take) SM and ISM and get something else completely and forget S&B.
Or shelf him until better Feats come out.
And no this isn't an excuse for "bad game design".
But since the game is still being built, I prefer a "Wait and See" attitude to a "this game sucks if you're not a Ranger or Ranger/Monk" attitude.
No, this is not a dig on anyone. I am not saying I perceive anyone to be like this, just presenting two extremes.
Mostly I see good suggestings. Especially, from A_D, Borro, and many others.
But to I don't believe the entire game is broken because some things are broken or breaking.
At least not yet, and certainly not until I see what the future brings.
I doubt much will change my builds.
They work great now. And I doubt anything will "break" them in the future.
Of Course, I'm sure the S&B Fighters thought the same when the level cap was 10.
So we'll just have to wait and see.