Discussion: Improving S&B

[Oreg]

It sounds simple to me but is probably harder to implement.

Make AC matter. Get rid of the ac bonus to tempest and force people to either go heavy dps, light on AC or vice versa.

or

Allow a shield block to deflect a significantly higher amount of damage so that actively shield blocking becomes a skill set wanted in groups.

I have both a twf barbarian and a f/p/r S&B. I like playing both and I'd probably play the latter more if you didn't have to get intimidate to an absurd level to be effective as a "tank".

[Oreg]

And another thing - Tower shield mastery or Shield mastery should give strength bonus to AC not Dex. I'm in full plate and carrying a shield for goodness sakes - my dex should suck - but I should be tougher because of my strength in being able to maneuver in full plate and a shield.

There should be a full line of fighter enhancements that give you additional AC that aren't dependent on Dex. Why can't I use 20 enhancement points to get an additional 12-14 AC if I want?

Pre-requisite of course that AC means something and it should be fighter level x only so that my sorc with Fanion doesn't get the AC advantage.

[QuantumFX]

I know it's not exactly the reverse. I get the difference, always did. Just never seen the 'problem' there that much.

All I see right now is:
1) AC is a passive defense against BaB in P&P.
2) That AC is not working as a passive defense in DDO.
3) AC numbers for PC's (while monty haul and dealing with some band aid raid loot) aren't that far off from what you can get in P&P.
3) BaB number are way off from what you see in P&P.

This leads me to conclude BaB is the problem.

Like I said, unless you show me HOW to ix it and what are the benefits, you're not going to convince me.

Well, I can't see all ends to this either.

Would a breakdown of how I'd make multiple attacks work and the list of metagame changes I expect work for you?

If so, there would be a couple things I'd expect from you.

1) You would not offer up: “Because so-n-so is buggy we shouldn't move forward.” as an excuse. Working around bugs is what got this game into this situation. The goal is to push for fixes to the problems and not enshrine them as “Features”.

2) Answer this question: Is your complaint that a TWF can achieve a higher AC or that he can achieve a higher AC while maintaining a good DPS? From my PoV: I don't have a problem with high AC. (cause it's that way in P&P) I have a problem with them being able to keep an excellent DPS as well.

3) Understand that, like everything else, there are exceptions to the rules. (ex. the step n move bug and tower shields.) It took a lot of balancing around a bug to get us here. It's gonna take just as much work to convert over.

[Gennerik]

AC is a problem just as much as BAB. In DnD, my character sent my DM into fits with a 54 AC, since everything basically missed except for dragons, and that was fighting CR32-35 things. Most other party members had between a 27-35 AC, and while most of the time would get hit on the first attack, started to see some misses further down the chain.

I think the problem is more four-fold:

• AC of players is much too high, meaning there is too much variance between a high AC and a moderate AC, and unless you have a high AC, you get hit all the time.
• BAB of players and monsters are too high. Monsters have much to high attack bonuses in order to hit the high AC characters, and players get an artificial bonus to stand still in the way of inflated bonuses further down the attack chain.
• Monster HP is too high to balance for the fact that monster AC means nothing, meaning that ability damage is the way to go, which minimalizes 2/3s of the melee fighting styles and any casting that doesn't have a chance to kill instantly.
• Monsters get only one attack instead of a sequence, meaning that to compensate, their damage is scaled between 2-3 times their normal damage to approximate hitting multiple times. The problem is that they only have to hit once, and they can move without being penalized and still get the equivalent of 3 attacks, and with inflated BAB, they hit anything but the high AC characters.

[Raiderone]

How can you claim that's not a nerf? Do you know what "nerf" means?

I consider nerfing when you make changes to make PC's core abilities weaker
via Feats, Enhancements.
I don't consider it nerfing when an item is reduced in power. Or limiting the amount
that can be worn at one time.

This game is becoming UBER players only. Sorry CASUAL player but you aren't gonna
get these items. I'm a bored UBER player that's starting to become a CASUAL one.

[Impaqt]

That's not true.

• If they go dex-based, no matter the class, they win over S&B. Untrue. Most S&B AC Builds have a 18-22Dex anyway, so a 38Dex gets them 8 Dex AC more.... But they cant wear Armor.... How do they exceed a Mithral Full Plate wearing Tower sheild build?
• If they got Str-based with decent Dex and monk splash, they win over S&B. Only if they invest heavily in Wisdom/
• If they go Str-based on a paladin or a ranger, they win over S&B. Paladin get s +4 Via Aura and Rangers can get +2 via Tempest. Neither of those means they automatically get a Higher AC than a S&B Build

That's more than "one build".

Please detail out how these builds are hittin their "Greater AC than S&B" and then lets talk some more. Every example of a High AC TWF Build I've seen has sacrificed something significant to get there.

Bottom line is these kinds of builds sacrifice a LOT for uber ac. anyone who thinks differently is kidding themselves.

An argument without examples is pointless.

[Angelus_dead]

Please detail out how these builds are hittin their "Greater AC than S&B" and then lets talk some more.

Why do you think anyone would want to take the effort to obey that demand?

[Borror0]

Please detail out how these builds are hittin their "Greater AC than S&B" and then lets talk some more.

I'll set S&B AC at 64 AC, fine with with you?

• Dex-based
  
  10 Base
  +14 Dexterity
  +8 Armor
  +1 Two-Weapon Defense
  +9 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +4 Insight
  +5 Deflection
  +5 Combat Expertise
  56 Unbuffed AC
  +3 Barkskin
  +1 Dodge (Haste)
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  64 AC self-buffed
  
  That's without any class abilities that can raise the total higher! (Tempest I, Favored Defense, Aura of good, etc.)
  
  As for 'giving up a lot', what do you mean? What do they have to sacrifice that S&B has?
  
  
• Str-based on a paladin or a ranger
  
  Str-based Ranger:
  10 Base
  +7 Dexterity
  +10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
  +7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +1 Two Weapon Defense
  +5 Protection
  +4 Insight
  +2 Tempest I
  +5 Combat Expertise
  51 AC Unbuffed
  +1 Haste
  +5 Barkskin
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  61 AC Buffed
  +3 Favored Enemy
  64 AC Buffed against favored enemies
  
  Str-based Paladin:
  10 Base
  +6 Dexterity (15 Starting)
  +10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
  +7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +1 Two Weapon Defense
  +5 Protection
  +4 Insight
  +5 Aura of Good
  +5 Combat Expertise
  53 AC Unbuffed
  +1 Haste
  +3 Barkskin
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  61 AC Buffed
  
  "Over S&B" was over-stating it, but you get the point.

As for "high investment in Wisdom", that simply not true. It takes only 12 Wisdom and you're higher... with a Str-build! Don't believe me? Ask Icey.

[Raiderone]

Those are AC numbers for a UBER player, maybe even for very lucky UBER player.

Here's numbers for what I think are for the Average Player to unlucky UBER players.

Dex Based TWF Ranger:
10 base
12 dex
6 armor
2 dodge(dodge and ritual).
+5 Prot Item.
+1 TWF
+2 Tempest I
Total AC=38 Unbuffed with no Penalty to Fighting Abilities.
with Defensive Fighting=40
with Combat Expertise=43 (keeping in mind -5 to-hit) so it's a give or take.
Buffed Approx +10 to AC.
+3 AC vs Favor Enemy.

Let's keep in mind your +4 Insight is from Crafting Large item (again Uber).
Crafting two weapons with Supreme Shard (uber).
Icy Rainment (Uber). Chattering Ring (UBer). Chaosguard is more probable
but not everybody plays Lawful Good.

Str Based TWF Ranger:
10 base
6 dex
9 armor
2 dodge (dodge and ritual)
5 prot item
1 twd
2 tempest I
Total: 35 AC.
37 AC with DF, 40 AC with CE (to-hit minuses).
+3 AC vs Favored Enemy.
+10 AC Buffed.

[Alavatar]

I'll set S&B AC at 64 AC, fine with with you?

• Dex-based
  
  10 Base
  +14 Dexterity
  +8 Armor
  +1 Two-Weapon Defense
  +9 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +4 Insight
  +5 Deflection
  +5 Combat Expertise
  56 Unbuffed AC
  +3 Barkskin
  +1 Dodge (Haste)
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  64 AC self-buffed
  
  That's without any class abilities that can raise the total higher! (Tempest I, Favored Defense, Aura of good, etc.)
  
  As for 'giving up a lot', what do you mean? What do they have to sacrifice that S&B has?

That build must have a 20 Dex starting (which sacrifices a lot of starting points that could be used on Str or Con), requires extremely rare Armor 8 Bracers, and an extremely rare +3 Dex tome OR a Shroud weapon with Dex (reducing DPS) and/or Abbot item. Either way, there is sacrafice.

• Str-based on a paladin or a ranger
  
  Str-based Ranger:
  10 Base
  +7 Dexterity
  +10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
  +7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +1 Two Weapon Defense
  +5 Protection
  +4 Insight
  +2 Tempest I
  +5 Combat Expertise
  51 AC Unbuffed
  +1 Haste
  +5 Barkskin
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  61 AC Buffed
  +3 Favored Enemy
  64 AC Buffed against favored enemies

TWD requires a feat that is better used else-where. And you are not always fighting Favored Enemies, so that is situational. Now, add a +5 Heavy Shield to that build above. Which has more AC?

• Str-based Paladin:
• 10 Base
• +6 Dexterity (15 Starting)
• +10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
• +7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
• +1 Two Weapon Defense
• +5 Protection
• +4 Insight
• +5 Aura of Good
• +5 Combat Expertise
• 53 AC Unbuffed
• +1 Haste
• +3 Barkskin
• +4 Shield (Shield wand)
• 61 AC Buffed

"Over S&B" was over-stating it, but you get the point.
As for "high investment in Wisdom", that simply not true. It takes only 12 Wisdom and you're higher... with a Str-build! Don't believe me? Ask Icey.

Now, add a +5 Heavy Shield to that and +5 MFP in lieu of the KDS, TWD, and shield Spell. Which has higher AC?

Lets build a fighter with a couple levels of paladin. Lets use the same assumption of uber items you used.

• 10 Base
• +13 Armor +5 MFP
• +9 Shield +5 MTS
• +6 Dex (Armor Mastery and Tower Shield Mastery enhancements)
• +5 Deflection
• +5 Combat Expertise
• +8 Dodge (Dodge Feat, Shield Ritual, Armor Ritual, Chaos Garde, Chattering Ring)
• +4 Insight (Shroud Item)
• +2 Aura
• 62 Unbuffed
• +3 Barkskin
• +1 Dodge (Haste)
• 66 Self-buffed

Hmmm...

[Angelus_dead]

[/LIST]That build must have a 20 Dex starting (which sacrifices a lot of starting points that could be used on Str or Con), requires extremely rare Armor 8 Bracers, and an extremely rare +3 Dex tome OR a Shroud weapon with Dex (reducing DPS) and/or Abbot item. Either way, there is sacrafice.

No, that's very wrong.

The most important factor for the success of a melee character is DPS, and second is attack rate. TWF is by far the best at both, while THF comes close in DPS but not attacks. S&B, of course, is the worst. It is S&B that makes the big sacrifice by not using the offhand slot to improve offensive power, and it is the S&B build that must search for a way to justify the sacrifice.

One potential way for S&B to compensate for the reduced offensive power is with higher AC- but as has been explained, it doesn't actually have more AC. The highest possible DDO AC is from a TWF character.

An additional way it could compensate is by saved feat slots, but that would only work if DDO included more good feats.

[Impaqt]

I'll set S&B AC at 64 AC, fine with with you?

• Dex-based
  
  10 Base
  +14 Dexterity
  +8 Armor
  +1 Two-Weapon Defense
  +9 Dodge (Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +4 Insight
  +5 Deflection
  +5 Combat Expertise
  56 Unbuffed AC
  +3 Barkskin
  +1 Dodge (Haste)
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  64 AC self-buffed
  
  That's without any class abilities that can raise the total higher! (Tempest I, Favored Defense, Aura of good, etc.)
  
  As for 'giving up a lot', what do you mean? What do they have to sacrifice that S&B has?
  38 Dex means they Started at 20 and used 18 AP for Dex.... used TWO feats for AC, and aquirted THREE top tier difficult to aquire raid Items. Yes, thats a Lot of WORK and its a Lot of sacrifice.
  
• Str-based on a paladin or a ranger
  
  Str-based Ranger:
  10 Base
  +7 Dexterity
  +10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
  +7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +1 Two Weapon Defense
  +5 Protection
  +4 Insight
  +2 Tempest I
  +5 Combat Expertise
  51 AC Unbuffed
  +1 Haste
  +5 Barkskin
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  61 AC Buffed
  +3 Favored Enemy
  64 AC Buffed against favored enemies
  Again... Three Raid Items, Plus 2 Feats, Plus Giving up a Slot for Chaosguards, Paly or Ranger so They are using 1 min Clickies or spening An aweful lot to use high level Sheild wands Via UMD
  Str-based Paladin:
  10 Base
  +6 Dexterity (15 Starting)
  +10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
  +7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
  +1 Two Weapon Defense
  +5 Protection
  +4 Insight
  +5 Aura of Good
  +5 Combat Expertise
  53 AC Unbuffed
  +1 Haste
  +3 Barkskin
  +4 Shield (Shield wand)
  61 AC Buffed
  [COLOR=yellow] 20 AP's on Aura buffs... yeah, lots of those guys runnin around.....
  "Over S&B" was over-stating it, but you get the point.

As for "high investment in Wisdom", that simply not true. It takes only 12 Wisdom and you're higher... with a Str-build! Don't believe me? Ask Icey.

You Put too much concern into "Theoretical" numbers.. anyone who busts their butt this much to get tho this level of AC TWFing DESERVES it. These are not AC numbers the average gamer can ever hope to acheive.

[Impaqt]

Just for fun, lets put a Tower Sheild in the hands of your STR based paly and see where we end up(Lets figure the paly took a couple levels of fighter like so many do and someone going for AC would CERTAINLY do)
Str-based Paladin:
10 Base
+6 Dexterity (15 Starting)
+10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
+7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
+5 Protection
+4 Insight
+5 Aura of Good
+5 Combat Expertise
+9 Mithral Tower Sheild
61 AC Unbuffed
+1 Haste
+3 Barkskin
65 AC Buffed


Hmmm.. thats kinda what I though.....

+4 AC.. In a territory where it matters a BUNCH. thats gettin hit 20% less there....

[eonfreon]

I’m still trying to figure out this S&B Build that you’re all talking about that can’t reach the AC or DPS of a TWF.

In another of Borro’s thread I asked why a S&B (which to me just means picking up a shield) should automatically have high AC. AC is a combination of Armor and Dexterity.

I figured S&B was a Fighter who went max Strength and no Dexterity, while the TWF sacrificed Strength for Dexterity. Then I was told that S&B put just as much points into Dex as a TWF.

Huh? So what’s keeping him from going TWF when he wants? A Fighter has the Feats.

If I was to build a pure offensive/defensive build fighter this is what I would do. This assumes 32 point build with a +1 Dex Tome (because I have 1 of those still and without it you would have to drop Intelligence to 13 and Charisma to 8 to maintain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution- or do something else and deal with the consequences).

16th level TWF/S&B Fighter Intimitank: Human Hit Points: 280 (Base: without buffs, Favor, or Items/Tomes etc. -would have been 330 (before stat Items, False Life, Rage, Favor, etc) if he was a Dwarf and willing to give up 1 Feat and 10 Action Points for Dwarf Toughness IV)

Starting stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 17(+1 Tome)
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Ending Stats: Enhancements + Level Ups
Str: 22 (21 if not Human)
Dex: 18 (17 if Dwarf/WF or 19 if Elf/Halfling)
Con: 14 (16 if Dwarf/WF)
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

Max Stats:+6 Items and Tomes- not including Shroud Crafting or Rage
Str: 28 (+6 Item) 30 (+2 Tome) Common: 26 (+4 Item or +5 and dropping 1 from Fighter Strength) +8 To Hit/Dmg
Dex: 24 (+6 Item) 26 (+2 Tome) Common: 22 (+4 Item) = +6 to AC (depending on Armor) and Reflex
Con: 20 (+6 Item) 22 (+2 Tome) Common: 18 (+4 Item) = 32 Additional Hit Points
Int: A minimum 13 Intelligence is needed for Combat Expertise.
The rest of the stats aren’t really relevant for this discussion but the higher the better.

Feats: Assuming TWF DPS Feats and S&B DR Protection
Cleave
Combat Expertise (5 AC -5 to hit)
Dodge (+1 to AC)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh (or Bastard Sword in my case because I have awesome Bastard Swords (Vorpal, Several Greater Bane, etc and no Khopesh- or if I was a Dwarf or Elf I wouldn’t worry about it and just keep to my Racial weapon, since I also have great Dwarven Axes and Rapiers)
Great Cleave
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Crit:
Piercing (for Puncturing, DPS and Effects (i.e enfeebling, banishing, etc.)
Slashing (For DPS and Effects (as above- a Scimitar Crits just as well as Rapier but can’t Puncture))
Improved Shield Mastery (3 DR) (or be less DR minded and get Stunning Blow)
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Oversized Two Weapon Fighting (not really necessary- just a personal preference)
Power Attack (+5 to dmg, +10 to THF, -5 to hit)
Shield Mastery (3 DR)
Toughness
Two Weapon Defense (personally I wouldn’t bother with this but if you’re AC minded and TWF then you might as well)
Two Weapon Fighting

Enhancements: Points:
Fighter Attack Boost 1
Fighter Haste Boost II 3
Fighter Armor Mastery III 12
Fighter Tower Shield Mastery III 12
Human Adaptability Strength 2
Human Greater Adaptability Dexterity 4
Human Improved Recovery I 2
Fighter Intimidate III 6
Fighter Strength III 12
Fighter Toughness IV 10
----
64

Feats: a Human Fighter has 16 – all others have 15 – so deduct 1 feat if you don’t go Human – so personally I’d get rid of Great Cleave or Khophesh/Bastard Sword if I went Dwarf/Elf- but really it’s all up to personal choice- Do you need those extra 6 DR from Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery? Would you rather have Stunning Blow (when it succeeds it’s the best Crit DPS/Puncturing-Weakening-Banishing Effect possible for a melee, but you’re going to need a high Strength and/or Impact/Stunning Weapons- or just keep spamming it until it succeeds; the Mobs have to roll a 1 eventually)- Do you want to squeeze in Point Blank Shot, ManyShot, Precise Shot, and Improved Precise Shot for excellent ranged abilities, in which case you might also want Improved Crit: Ranged (19-20 Crit range for LongBow- so up to you if it’s worth it, for my Super High Dexterity Ranger/Rogue Drow it was- I use Rapiers and Picks primarily, so I didn’t need Improved Crit: Slash)and 1 level of Ranger for Bow Strength. If you’re looking for more hit points then you would want more Toughness Feats.

So if you start with 17 Dex (or can reach it with a Tome) why wouldn't you take TWF feats?
What are the S&B Feats besides Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery?
S&B to me has been about DR, not AC. Because anyone can pick up a shield.
A Tempest Ranger sure as heck isn't going to have the space to squeeze in DR Feats and is excluded from Tower Shield Enhancements (and will lose a lot of AC for even picking up the Tower Shield).

No one's arguing that Fighter's don't need some improvement.

The only things that have changed from before are Tempest +2 AC and 10% alacrity bonus and the Monk Splash.
And Raid Items.

So apparently what is needed is to get rid of the +2 AC Tempest Bonus?
Prevent Dodge Items from stacking?
Although the S&B benefits equally from the Chattering Ring and Chaos Guards.
So apparently the Icy Rainments is the problem because it's far easier to get then the Chattering Ring?
Make Monk Wisdom AC Bonuses dependent upon Monk Levels?

My 13 Fighter/2 Monk/ 1 Ranger Human only uses the Monk Levels for the Extra Feats and Evasion anyway.
At least until I get one of these +8 Armored Bracers that apparently are falling out of the sky. They're everywhere, I tell you, everywhere. Can't move without bumping into +8 Bracers apparently.

So my point is it’s not the Builds that are the problem but rather the Items. And even then it’s only a perceived problem of the haves and the have-nots.

If they implemented every nerf you want, I’ll still be fine.

Across all my toons I have 1 pair of Chaos Guards. No Icy Rainments, no Chattering rings, no Green Steel Weapons or Items yet. And I have Levik’s Bracer’s so I barely use the Chaos Guards except when I solo. My favorite armor is my Breastplate of Destruction which I attuned and Alchemically enhanced, before that I used my +5 Mithral Chainshirt which I finally bound, attuned, and Alchemically enhanced just one hour before doing the Hound Raid that got me the Breastplate – d’oh, now it sits in the bank waiting for the day the Devs introduce Unbinding (for non-Raid items) Rituals (please, please, please ).

If they get rid of the +2 Tempest bonus to AC while TWF I’ll be fine, but then I’ll demand Toughness enhancements for Rangers.

Add Bow Strength as a Feat? Fine, you convinced me in the other thread. If someone wants to burn a Feat on it, fine, but then I’ll demand Toughness enhancements for Rangers.

Take away Dwarf Toughness Enhancements? No problem, I’ll survive without the 50 hit points (my Drow Ranger/Rogue does fine without it), but then I’ll demand Toughness enhancements for Rangers (which will keep my Dwarf IntimRanger the same and benefit my Drow Ranger/Rogue immensely if I can figure what to sacrifice in it’s place- heck, I don’t need to get that Cabal trap on Elite anymore, the chest is lame anyway).

So nerf away if you have to. The game would have to drastically change to affect my builds and my enjoyment.

But if you expect me to cry for the S&B that chose his stats poorly and lost his versatility… well I guess there’s something to be said for reaching a 34 Strength on a Fighter.
My Dwarf 13 Fighter/ 2 Barbarian/ 1 Ranger, without a +2 Strength Tome yet, can reach a 38 self-buffed Strength (32 constant and 36 situational and undispellable), self-heal, Intimidate, and although I miss Evasion, his nearly 500 unraged and undispellable hit points compensates for that somewhat and for his low AC (which used to be higher but I love the Chainshirt of Crippling too much to ever don my +4 Mithral Fullplate). Would a pure Barbarian have been better? Probably. More fun? Doubtful. I never went beyond 12th level with my 28 point Dwarf Barbarian (and took 1 level Ranger so I could dispel my Rage and save the Cleric if I had to .
Both my Fighter/Barbarian and my Fighter/Ranger can tank the Hound all the way up to Elite. Neither has any problem in the Shroud on Elite. VOD? Don’t know, haven’t done it yet.

[Riminy]

Just for fun, lets put a Tower Sheild in the hands of your STR based paly and see where we end up(Lets figure the paly took a couple levels of fighter like so many do and someone going for AC would CERTAINLY do)
Str-based Paladin:
10 Base
+6 Dexterity (15 Starting)
+10 Armor (Kundarak Delving Suit)
+7 Dodge (Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Dodge feat, Ritual)
+5 Protection
+4 Insight
+5 Aura of Good
+5 Combat Expertise
+9 Mithral Tower Sheild
61 AC Unbuffed
+1 Haste
+3 Barkskin
65 AC Buffed


Hmmm.. thats kinda what I though.....

+4 AC.. In a territory where it matters a BUNCH. thats gettin hit 20% less there....

The armor class is not the whole problem, it's the advantages a twf gets over a S&B. We agree that the AC's are similar, however a dex based can take a lvl of monk and he becomes better. A paladin cannot do the same as you would have to have at least 30 dex to benefit from icy rainment. So essentially, they'd have to be a dex toon to gain the higher AC.

One of the main problems I see is the advantages a twf has with a similar and higher AC is the rate of attacks and dps. No i'm not talking about my pally cant compete with the strength rangers but a twf with gtwf has a total of 10 swings. Thats 5 more then a S&B for things such as wounding, weakening, vorpaling, portals, etc... A dex ranger or rogue who take a level of monk have a massive advantage towards AC over a S&B. The ranger has 5 extra swings with his favored enemy, the rogue has alot of damage coming from sneak attack. Should either of them grab agro? It wouldn't matter because their potential AC's are ridiculous.

The Dex toons can get a massive intimidate also, maybe not as high as a fighter, but only 8.5 difference. An intimidate in the 40's is easily viable so grabbing agro isnt difficult.

Lastly back to the AC, a ranger gets favored enemy defence and barkskin, a rogue gets uncanny dodge. Both classes have higher potencial AC's but not only that, more dps and more swings. In my opinion the only advantage to a S&B is his DR with a shield, but hey, why get a S&B tank when you can just get a high dex AC ranger who can swing at the mob without getting hit. It's just wasted dps.

[Angelus_dead]

Just for fun, lets put a Tower Sheild in the hands of your STR based paly and see where we end up(Lets figure the paly took a couple levels of fighter like so many do and someone going for AC would CERTAINLY do)

That is absolutely wrong.

If he was going for AC, he'd "certainly" do MONK levels, which unlike fighter actually gives you serious AC.

+6 Dexterity (15 Starting)

Wrong. You don't get +6 dex from a tower shield unless you have 7 fighter levels, which is substantially more than the "couple" you claimed.

[eonfreon]

Still haven't answered my question about why a Fighter wouldn't take the TWF Feats if he started with a 17 Dex?
Even a 28 Point Fighter can start with a 17 Dex.
Starting Stats:
Str: 14
Dex: 17
Con: 10
Int: 13
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Yes, the sacrifices would hurt more, especially Con- and that would be the real decision.
Start with a 13 Intelligence and Sacrifice Constitution for Combat Expertise AC.
Start with a 10 Intelligence and 13 Constitution and count on a +3 Intelligence Tome, or just play the above Build until your Cleric unlocks 1750 Favor and then reroll the Fighter as a 32 Build with a +1 Dexterity Tome.

[Angelus_dead]

Still haven't answered my question about why a Fighter wouldn't take the TWF Feats if he started with a 17 Dex?

That's not a valid question, because of course the fighter would take the TWF feats if he was smart. That's the whole point of this thread: TWF is so much better than S&B that you really need to take the TWF feats if you want to be a decent fighter. An S&B build focus doesn't offer a real way to compete. On those rare situations when you want to be shield-blocking a lot, TWF builds can do it almost as well as a specialized shield-warrior can.

[eonfreon]

That's not a valid question, because of course the fighter would take the TWF feats if he was smart. That's the whole point of this thread: TWF is so much better than S&B that you really need to take the TWF feats if you want to be a decent fighter. An S&B build focus doesn't offer a real way to compete. On those rare situations when you want to be shield-blocking a lot, TWF builds can do it almost as well as a specialized shield-warrior can.

But the point is a Fighter has the Feats, so why can't he be a Specialized shield-warrior AND TWF.
Specialized shield warrior when DR Blocking is needed.
TWF when DPS is needed.
And AC is dependent on Dexterity and type of Armor, except for the Monk of course.
Currently it is impossible to be a shield-warrior and not have the Feats left for other things.
All you need are Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery.
So what should you spend the Feats on to be a "SPECIALIZED SHIELD WARRIOR"?
I guess I just don't see this need to be one or the other WHEN YOU CAN BE BOTH .

[Borror0]

These are not AC numbers the average gamer can ever hope to acheive.

It is no more harder to get than S&B AC. Of course, I omitted the Dex-based monk that goes way higher and the Dex-based ranger or (paladin) that beats the S&B build in AC.

Besides, you put too much focus on what they give rather than if they are better than S&B or not!