Discussion: Improving S&B

[Borror0]

No, but I still believe nerfs can be healthier for the game too. It is possible to nerf something, yet have it still remain one of the best options

I like the way you said it.

Bringing back fighter dodge would help

I don't like Fighter Dodge because it makes you "waste" your APS on something that other build don't have too.

Limits options, in my opinion.

I'm not sure they are penalized, it's just the player mentality that does it. A defensive build can work, but most other people don't have the patience to let it work.

Sorry, maybe I was unclear.

I meant that, the way the to-hit of mobs in Elite dungeons climb, it hurts the S&B character more than the no-AC HP blobs.

[QuantumFX]

What about item inflation?

With the exception of greensteel I don't see anything that's grossly overpowered from P&P. In fact there's a bunch of Raid only item effects that should be on the general loot tables. (ex. Cloak of the Zephir is a poorly disguised cloak of displacement.)

Enhancement inflation/Class limitations are leading us down the road of no Rings of Evasion (Cause some loser needs to feel “special” even though his character is able to do something w/o wearing an item.) and no +5 Tomes. It's also handing out feats without costing feats. (ex. See just about every barbarian enhancement outside of Crit Range.)

As for a Dodge cap, I'd be in favor of one for as long as Combat Expertise and Dodge are seen as feat bonus or whatever, rather than Dodge bonus.

Like I said don't let the +Dodge bonus on items stack with each other. They're really a GM created item that falls outside the d20 ruleset so it's up to the GM to balance them. Natural armor in P&P is capped like what I'm suggesting for DDO +Dodge.

How would it do that?

Because in DDO you can still easily hit stuff on a 2 on the first hit even with the -9 to hit penalty to hit from not needing OTWF and not needing to turn off PA. In P&P you could probably get away with this on your 1st attack but forget about doing a full round attack option on anything with an easily achievable AC.

If you need a good demonstration as to what TWF should work like go do some TWF'ing until you hit +5 BAB. You don't hit an awful lot. TWF starts scaling in power the moment you give it a free +5 to attack. (Bringing your 1st attack to +10 before any additions or subtractions are made.)

TWF in P&P either requires you to use shortswords for feat conservation or to have a lot of feats available.

[Borror0]

With the exception of greensteel I don't see anything that's grossly overpowered from P&P.

Chattering ring? Icy Rainment? Chaosgade if you're not Lawful and without UMD?

SoS back in its days?

In P&P you could probably get away with this on your 1st attack but forget about doing a full round attack option on anything with an easily achievable AC.

That's the way Turbine set the mob's AC, not the progression.

+20/+15/+10/+5 is the same as +5/+10/+15/+20 in practice. It's only the AC that is too low.
(And anyway, that would hurt S&B as much as they also have very low to-hit.)

[Riminy]

1. Is it a good idea for Turbine to change drastically the definitions and roles of the fighting styles in DDO? Why?
   Realistically, any other successful game would nerf or change something they see as a future threat to game balance, sometimes they test these things before they implement them and do all kinds of tricky math to double and triple check the degree of impact. I think working around a problem is like trying to compensate for missing support posts in your house. We can put cardboard boxes to hold it instead and just strengthen the other supports on the otherside of the house. In the end, the whole thing is likely to collapse.
2. Is it OK for Turbine to nerf in this situation? Why? If yes, by how much (or how)? And why?
   As stated above, What is better, a well planned and balanced game that may be less profitable, however may attract new players, or eventually a comparison of DDO China (the game is on hiatous)
3. If you answered no to the previous question, would you change your mind if a full respect system would be implemented? If you answered yes to the previous question, are you in favor of a respect system and would you nerf more if there was one? In both cases, why?
   This is something that should have been in the game long ago. Even if it were only several areas (aside from the current ones) such as skill points.
4. Are you scared of inflation? Why?
   Not nerfing has lead to inflation, building around the problem doesnt fix it
5. Do you think it would be a good idea reduce the AC scores that PCs can reach if mobs' to-hits were also lowered? What about just lowering mobs' to-hits? Justify your answers.
   Yes I think it would be a good idea to reduce possible ac scores, however I think it would be better for the game if it is still possible for ac speced twf to have very similar ac to the top S&B although giving S&B advantages to having agro, such as DR.. etc. I think mobs attack bonus' are a little high, only a little.
6. Would you like to see a bunch of feats to improve S&B? Any suggestions? (It can be either in the form of feats or just unrefined ideas that still need to be rethought. It can be as general as "Something giving them DR would be cool." if you want.) If you use feats already existing in PnP, please indicate the book.
   Think i answered this question above.
7. Do you think that S&B could use more DPS, also, to be brought back in line?
   I'm not sure on this, it depends on the changes really.
8. Do you think paladins and fighters should become S&B specialists and receive enhancements focused on S&B fight? Explain your answer.
   I think diversity and customisation are two factors to why the game is so great. However I do believe paladins and fighters should have advantages to using a shield over other classes, more so then what they already have. Doesn't mean that they should be based on shield users either though.
9. Do you think S&B should have the ability (or opportunity) to be protected by other means than AC? If yes, list a few.
   A stackable damage reduction when using a shield for a fighter or pally, maybe through enhancements or feats. (Have to be careful when implementing enhancements though). I could think of others but running low on time
10. Would you be in favor of a cap on Dodge AC? Why?
    Depends, because it can work both ways. Could be bad for both twf and S&B. Sacrificing item slots for dodge bonus' may be more approriate. Things like icy rainment or what create inbalances because they not only offer the dodge, but other things also. Things like chaosguarde and chattering ring are ok in my opinion as you cant wear anything else in that slot.

My thoughts

[QuantumFX]

Chattering ring? Icy Rainment? Chaosgade if you're not Lawful and without UMD? SoS back in its days?

Actually I could see any of those items being a special DM designed item in a P&P campaign. Like I said, +Dodge items are outside the normal d20 ruleset. It's up to the GM to balance them. THat's why the DMG discourages their inclusion into games.

That's the way Turbine set the mob's AC, not the progression.

No, Turbine is actually very good about giving mobs an appropriate AC. It's SR, HP and DR that they're going overboard on.

+20/+15/+10/+5 is the same as +5/+10/+15/+20 in practice. It's only the AC that is too low.
(And anyway, that would hurt S&B as much as they also have very low to-hit.)

Um… Borror0… you obviously do not understand how this works in P&P. (Not trying to be harsh but based off what you typed it shows. ) This is how it works in P&P and what I'm advocating: Bubba the Barbarian in a full rage has a starting to hit of +50. (BTW: +50 to hit is very, very generous in P&P.) In P&P it would be +50/+45/+40/+35. In DDO his chain of attacks would be +50/+50/+55/+60/+60.

[Raiderone]

But TWF being the way for AC is the drastic change! Not the other way around!

Then here's my suggestion. No nerf needed, just don't let Dodge Bonuses stack.

No stacking bonus for Icy Rainment, Chattering Ring or Chaosguard.

Or make each different alignment base and set UMD to 50.

[Angelus_dead]

Then here's my suggestion. No nerf needed, just don't let Dodge Bonuses stack.

How can you claim that's not a nerf? Do you know what "nerf" means?

[Ralmeth]

1. Is it a good idea for Turbine to change drastically the definitions and roles of the fighting styles in DDO? Why?
   
   My Thoughts:
   I really like the idea of the three fighting styles each having an unique advantage. S&B should have higher defenses because they have a huge shield strapped to their arm. Two weapon fighting should be able to dish out the DPS, but at the expense of being more vulnerable, etc.
   
   
2. Is it OK for Turbine to nerf in this situation? Why? If yes, by how much (or how)? And why?
   
   My Thoughts:
   Yes, if necessary, but kept as limited as necessary. I wouldn't mind seeing a little bit of 2-weapon fighting nerfing along with some moderate increases to S&B. Specifically, I think that the monk AC bonus should only apply if you are centered, though still keep evasion if you are in light or no armor. It's just crazy that you can have better AC by wearing no armor with a high Dex.
   
   
3. If you answered no to the previous question, would you change your mind if a full respect system would be implemented? If you answered yes to the previous question, are you in favor of a respect system and would you nerf more if there was one? In both cases, why?
   
   My Thoughts:
   If there was a respec system would I be open to more nerfing? Maybe a little, but not too much. The issue is that you could have really worked hard on your character and that's just not cool to have the developers take it all away. If there was a complete respec, if you couldn't rebuild your character to what you were close to before I know I would be rather discouraged.
   
   
4. Are you scared of inflation? Why?
   
   My Thoughts:
   Inflation is bad, though you have to also realize that there already is massive inflation in DDO. Efforts should be made to minimize inflation so it's easier to keep balance in adventures. The more balance can be maintained, the more everyone in a group can contribute and thus the more fun it is for everyone
   
   
5. Do you think it would be a good idea reduce the AC scores that PCs can reach if mobs' to-hits were also lowered? What about just lowering mobs' to-hits? Justify your answers.
   
   My Thoughts:
   I think primarily just the ACs of TWF builds with monk splashes so that again TWF have an awesome DPS that they do but at the expense of less defense. In my PnP campaigns we nerfed everyone once in a while when we realized that things had gotten a bit out of control. Of course, only in my later campaigns after having learned the lesson that overpowered campaigns with cheesy tactics are not as fun to play in as balanced campaigns with reasonably powered characters.
   
   
6. Would you like to see a bunch of feats to improve S&B? Any suggestions? (It can be either in the form of feats or just unrefined ideas that still need to be rethought. It can be as general as "Something giving them DR would be cool." if you want.) If you use feats already existing in PnP, please indicate the book.
   
   My Thoughts:
   This would be awesome! I think that the developers have said this is going to be part of mod 8, though I've never seen them list any real specifics. I'm keeping my fingers crossed. One issue with them just throwing tons of more feats at us is that this would primarily benefit Fighters who has lots of spare feats. It would not benefit more feat starved classes such as Paladins. So instead it would also have to be other things such as enhancements, greensteel shields (TWFrs can use two greensteel weapons, but S&B can only use one greensteel weapon, and a regular shield?). You could also simply increase the AC and/or DR value of using a shield.
   
   
7. Do you think that S&B could use more DPS, also, to be brought back in line?
   
   My Thoughts:
   That's a tough one. If they bring the defense in line such that S&B has more defenses than TWF you may not need to increase the DPS of S&B.
   
   
8. Do you think paladins and fighters should become S&B specialists and receive enhancements focused on S&B fight? Explain your answer.
   
   My Thoughts:
   Well, Fighters are supposed to be able to specialize in whichever fighting style they choose. If the fighting styles are brought more in balance, then simply by picking the appropriate feats for that style would make fighting in that style worthwhile. The advantage would be that they could go DPS with TWF or 2-handed, or if they need more defense throw on a shield. As for Paladins, they should be given more enhancements to be more defensive oriented. However, to pay for those enhancements the cost of some other enhancements should be brought down some.
   
   
9. Do you think S&B should have the ability (or opportunity) to be protected by other means than AC? If yes, list a few.
   
   My Thoughts:
   You could perhaps have a passive DR for having the shield in your off-hand. The DR would be dependent on the shield type.
   
   
10. Would you be in favor of a cap on Dodge AC? Why?
    
    My Thoughts:
    Yes! It is ridiculous that dodge AC stacks, but no other types of AC stack. That makes no sense to me. If you have the Chattering ring, then good for you. You get +3 dodge AC. If you have the chaosguard then you get 2. For most of us that have dodge, then you could drop this feat for perhaps one of the new feats that are coming out. What would this do for TWF builds, they would be forced to spend a feat on dodge to get tempest but with no additional 1 to AC. The benefit is tempest, which is really nice as we all know. It would also reduce slightly the AC that some people have (most notably those of us going for high end AC).

[Borror0]

Um… Borror0… you obviously do not understand how this works in P&P. (Not trying to be harsh but based off what you typed it shows. ) This is how it works in P&P and what I'm advocating: Bubba the Barbarian in a full rage has a starting to hit of +50. (BTW: +50 to hit is very, very generous in P&P.) In P&P it would be +50/+45/+40/+35. In DDO his chain of attacks would be +50/+50/+55/+60/+60.

Nope. Turbine can set it for a +50 to-hit to miss 50% of the time in both cases. The value changes nothing.

[QuantumFX]

Nope. Turbine can set it for a +50 to-hit to miss 50% of the time in both cases. The value changes nothing.

Yes it does. Just in case you glossed it over: AC is fine as is. BAB is the problem. Turbine is basing AC off of P&P values but BaB off of their whacked out +5/+10 Bonuses. We have HP inflation is a result of AC not mattering. Monsters last longer in P&P with fewer HP because they have the same layered defenses as PCs and those defenses work. Arguing anything else is just someone trying to “win” an argument by not reading the rules DDO is supposed to be based off of.

[Borror0]

We have HP inflation is a result of AC not mattering. Monsters last longer in P&P with fewer HP because they have the same layered defenses as PCs and those defenses work. Arguing anything else is just someone trying to “win” an argument by not reading the rules DDO is supposed to be based off of.

Well, sorry to disappoint you but you're wrong. If we have inflated HP, it's because of how overpowered nuking would be if mobs still had pre-Module 6 HP.

Also, please explain me how a 40% miss rate is not a 40% miss rate...

[QuantumFX]

Well, sorry to disappoint you but you're wrong. If we have inflated HP, it's because of how overpowered nuking would be if mobs still had pre-Module 6 HP.

Also, please explain me how a 40% miss rate is not a 40% miss rate...

Congrats you've taken a completely different subject (Caster damage inflation that shouldn't exist) and tried to apply it to this subject. And for you history buffs the caster crits are a product of mob HP inflation which is a product of Turbine turning lvl 10 fighters into lvl 20 fighters by giving them a free +10 to hit.

A 40% miss rate is not a 40% miss rate when someone stops assuming that somehow Turbine will magically have to lower the ACs of mobs. To hits scale differently Borr. I'm sorry you seem to have so much trouble understanding this. You could always try downloading the rulebooks and reading them.

Here let me show you something:

This is the To Hit breakdown of Illuminati's Iron Monk. Note it's featuring a character using 2 light weapons.

Attack: (Rapier/Short Sword)
+15 BaB
+12 Dex
+5 Weapon
+4 Greater Heroism
-2 TWF
-5 Power Attack/CE
+1 Haste
+1 Halfling
------------------
+31 (w/ Greater Hero / Power Attack/CE)

Without any buffs a P&P pit fiend has a 40AC. (Pg 57 of the Monster Manual)

In DDO the attacks will go +31/+31/+36/+41/+41 for just the main hand attacks.
So vs. our unbuffed P&P pit fiend he'll miss 45%/45%/20%/5%/5% of the time

If the P&P attacks (With the DDO extra attack) applied it would go +31/+31/+26/+21/+16
Now take a look at the miss chances: 45%/45%/70%/95%/95%

LOOK all the sudden having CE/PA on is not a bonus but it starts cutting into your DPS.

[Mistinarperadnacles]

I wouldn't mind seeing some feats for "dedicated" shield users. Only possible issue with using feats is unless they are free class feats, it becomes a penalty as feats have to be sacrificed elsewhere. I've suggested Fighter and Paladin levels they might be found at to mitigate spalsh building and retain some balance between Pally abilities like auras and fighters extra feats.

Suggestions: (examples - not tested so final numbers may well need to scale down or up. Should then provide much more equal AC totals to 2wf builds.)

Improved Shield Use: Gives a +3 bonus to shield AC when using a shield. Req: Ftr11 or Pal12.
Greater Shield Use: Gives a +5 bonus to shield AC when using a shield. Req: Ftr14 or Pal15.

Improved Shield Blocking: Provides your shield Blocking DR at all times while shield is equipped instead of only when blocking. Req: Ftr13 or Pal14

Improved Shield Fighting: Increases the number of attacks (by 1) when wielding a weapon and shield. Req: Ftr6 or Pal7
Greater Shield Fighting: Increases the number of attacks (by an additional 1) when wielding a weapon and shield. Req: Ftr11 or Pal12

Improved Combat Expertise: Reduces the attack penalty for Combat Expertise from 5 to 2 Req: Ftr13 or Pal14


I think that would vastly improve S&B viability without too drastically affecting everything else.

[Drinkin]

1. I don't think they have. I think that ddo has made it easier for twf to get a better ac. I don't think that is a role change just a convient perk. Yes s&b could use some love.

2. I dislike the Idea of what a nerf brings to the game. To nerf one class or race because some people think it is over powered is silly then the people that got thier toons nerfed may feel that other classes or races are over powered and where does it all stop. I think it would be better to make it easier for s&b classes to get better ac. An example of what I'm talking about is not capping shields and armor at +5 current level cap would allow for +10rr gear and that would give you +10 to ac with both upgraded. +8 armor bracers with a 36 dex = 31 ac +5fp and +5 shield = 31 ac am I the only one that sees a problem with that? With a +10 in each it'd be 41 much more fair IMO.

3. I think the only problem with the current respec option is the fact that I think you should be able to respec all your feats at once if you have that many dragon shards and the plat then there be a three day waiting period per feat changed.

4. I am not afriad of inflation expecially not the inflation of s&b ac. I think that is about the only thing in the game unbalanced.

5. NO!! I think that if I get a rr +5 shield and a +5 rr mithril fp I can have an amazing ac for lvl 6. I never or nearly never get hit. I think the better way to deal with it is have a higher ac easier to get. I'm ok with the to hit of most of the mobs I fight. Elite quests are not for everyone!! If they were there would be nothing to challenge the better players. The reason you have a n/h/e IMO is so that people of all skill level can have fun.

6 I think feats and a line of enhancements to improve them would be great. Possibly a feat that allows you to get the dr from a shield while attacking much like two weapon defense(both arms working independantly but together). You would learn to deflect blows even while attacking.

7. No. I think the dps is fine on s&b. I think they should do less than half the dps of a twf or thf build that being said they should have some benefit and right now I see little if any. Could use some attention.

8. No. I think those enhancements should be feat oriented for the most part. Maybe a bonus for being a fighter or pali but still available to anyone that takes the feat. Like armor mastery and dwarvern armor mastery. Shield mastery enhancement for anyone that takes the feat that stacks with paladin or fighter shield mastery if you're that class.

9. I already stated the dr suggestion above bigger shield and more enhancements = better. possibly deflecting blows so you take no damage on a % per successful attack enhancements to increase the %

10. Definately not as it stands now the icy raiment and chaos guard can't be effectively used together how ever the chaos guard and chattering ring can as well as icy raiment and chattering ring. I think to Void the usefulness of items that people have already spent hours trying to get would be a mistake on turbines part.

I like the way you said it.

I don't like Fighter Dodge because it makes you "waste" your APS on something that other build don't have too.

Limits options, in my opinion.

You can choose to roll up a gimped character If a ranger would speld ap getting ac against only favored mobs why would you not be willing to against all mobs?http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=20

Sorry, maybe I was unclear.

I meant that, the way the to-hit of mobs in Elite dungeons climb, it hurts the S&B character more than the no-AC HP blobs.

fix s&b ac and you fix that problem.

[Borror0]

And for you history buffs the caster crits are a product of mob HP inflation which is a product of Turbine turning lvl 10 fighters into lvl 20 fighters by giving them a free +10 to hit.

Perhaps, but it still goes down to the mobs' AC.

You could always try downloading the rulebooks and reading them.

Being insultive won't get your point across more easily.

In DDO the attacks will go +31/+31/+36/+41/+41 for just the main hand attacks.
So vs. our unbuffed P&P pit fiend he'll miss 45%/45%/20%/5%/5% of the time

If the P&P attacks (With the DDO extra attack) applied it would go +31/+31/+26/+21/+16
Now take a look at the miss chances: 45%/45%/70%/95%/95%

/sigh

First, you made a mistake. Your calculations were made for a 30 to-hit.

We agree that 45%/45%/20%/5%/5% is a 24% miss chance and 45%/45%/70%/95%/95% is a 70% miss chance?
Now, keeping the same +30 to-hit, if the pit fiend's AC becomes 50 AC the DDO attack become 95%/95%/70%/45%/45% for a average miss chance of 70%!

It's all in the way Turbine balances!

[noinfo]

Any nerf would have to be part of a global change, if you nerf their ac then the same should be done with certain dwarf enhancements, barberian critical rage as well (Barberians dual wielding wop rapiers is a rediculous concept but in terms of effectiveness who can blame them). The problem is we have inflation on 2.5 of the 4 melee (pallys got something but a bit more would help) the fighter (and pally) who are supposed to be able to (if built for) damage mitigation are supposed to be at the top of the line. They are not anymore.


Gear dependance is one of the things that annoys me most with this game, particulary with ac. Those who want to specialise in ac have to grind constantly to achieve decent ac, though now 2 weapon fighters seem to do this much easier. In a way I can understand this as they have invested very heavily in their dex and those with a monk splash, their wisdom and should be very hard to hit. The problem lies in the way Dnd works its hit and penetration to damage. They are the same roll, in the ddo implementation there is really no difference between full ac and touch ac. I think it should be almost impossible to hit an expert swordsman with a 36 or so dex.

I know most people are going to hate this but I would like to see a line of enhancements that give a dodge bonus as part of a fighting style, the dodge bonuses on items could then be given as an enhancment bonus item similar for that line just like the dagger tooth belt. If you don't have the item and you are willing to invest in it then you can achieve that ac. Makes the pain of not being lucky enough to score a chattering ring or Icy rainment a bit easier, while those who have them gain the benefit of not having to spend points. A line for insight bonus as well maybe? This makes raid loot very desirable without being essential. Having it means that you are able to spend points else where, not having it means you can build your character to concept if you are willing to sacrifice until you get such gear.

While their at it, get rid of the dwarven armour mastery and make it available to anyone with the appropriate feat and need to be taken specifically for light, medium or heavy.
Reduce the cost of ap for fighter armour master, pallies get an aura for 1pt per rank, or maybe double the bonus, 1 rank gives you 2 dex above [for 1 particular armour type], same with tower shields, the problem with this is that the low dex fighters don't get any benefit.

Armour and Shields in ddo should give a passive dr bonus. This should scale with the + bonus of the armour and how heavy the armour is (base not mithril variety) and should be cumalative with adamantine etc. This is not how it goes in dnd but that game does not have inflated damage to deal with.

I will try and summarise my ramblings below:

The roles of the melee types:

1. 2 Weapon should be the second highest dps in game with the benefit of dual special effects
2. 2 handed fighting should be the highest DPS in game,
3. Sword and board fighting should have the lowest dps in game, single weapon effect.

Damage avoidance/mitigation

Higher dex should be hard to hit
Heavier armour should mitigate damage best achieved by ac and dr?
Adding a shield should provide a measurable benefit in passive as well as active defense achieved by ac and dr?

[QuantumFX]

First, you made a mistake. Your calculations were made for a 30 to-hit.

No my calculations were made with the average to hit of the character build that you're whining about in all your threads nowadays. So, no, it's not a mistake.

I've shown that making BaB work properly forces that style of build to not use CE because it's impractical to leave on 24/7. All you've shown is that you either don't comprehend this, or are just trying to be argumentative because you think that the only solution is to screw over the d20 ruleset more than it already has been.

We agree that 45%/45%/20%/5%/5% is a 24% miss chance and 45%/45%/70%/95%/95% is a 70% miss chance?
Now, keeping the same +30 to-hit, if the pit fiend's AC becomes 50 AC the DDO attack become 95%/95%/70%/45%/45% for a average miss chance of 70%!

It's all in the way Turbine balances!

Or it's all in the way you imagine turbine needs to balance.

[Borror0]

Or it's all in the way you imagine turbine needs to balance.

Ok, get off your horses where my calculation were wrong?

[Angelus_dead]

Ok, get off your horses where my calculation were wrong?

Your errors were not (necessarily) in calculation, but in the definitions that gave those calculations their initial conditions.

That is, "increasing iterative attack bonus" can be interpreted ambiguously. Does it mean that later attacks go up in bonus instead of down? Or does it mean that the extra attacks granted by higher BAB are at higher bonus instead of lower? Or does it mean both?

Depending on what you interpret that to mean, it may not be the case that it's possible to shift ACs so as to arrive at the same relative hitting percentage in both increasing and decreasing attack bonus.

[QuantumFX]

Ok, get off your horses where my calculation were wrong?

By the fact that you're assuming that somehow Turbine will need to lower ACs and the fact that you're ignoring that with a correct BaB progression feats like CE and Power attack would hurt a TWF more. Have you run my calculations past your Dwarven Defender?

+16 - Full BaB
+10 - STR
+2 - Greater Weapon Focus
+2 - Dwarven Axe Enhancements
+5 - Weapon
+4 - Greater Heroism
+1 - Haste
-5 - CE
----------------------------
+35

With a correct BaB progression an Iron Monk build would need to turn off CE (And lower that godlike AC) in order to keep up with your dwarven defender's ability to hit with CE enabled. The game becomes more balanced when being super specialized becomes impractical. If you need a good example check out paladin saves.

And just as a side note. Sorry if this is getting so “ugly” on the personal insult front. This is what a guy pulling his hair out trying to make you understand looks like.

Depending on what you interpret that to mean, it may not be the case that it's possible to shift ACs so as to arrive at the same relative hitting percentage in both increasing and decreasing attack bonus.

I think you nailed it. I'm arguing to leave AC alone and focus on the BAB. As far as I can tell Turbine has done a pretty good job following AC rules. The reduction of damage over time would allow the devs to reduce mob HP values. Borr seems to be saying that if we adjust BaB that somehow Turbine needs to adjust AC down too. Going that route defeats the whole purpose of what I'm advocating.