Discussion: Improving S&B

[Borror0]

This generalization is so obnoxious that the only reply I have for it is: Straw Man Fallacy.

Comparing killing and video game mechanics and claiming they are similar is completely ridiculous.

I'm replying to a fallacy with a fallacy. Yours was the appeal to novelty.

Change is not always good. Sometimes, change is bad. That was my point.

[dageth]

There are three basic melee styles in DDO: TWF, THF and S&B. I agree that avoiding nerfs is preferable if possible, so lets adjust the thinking cap to see the current version of TWF as the baseline standard.

By comparison, a well-built S&B character has less DPS than a TWF style character. Also, a TWF style character is likely to have AC that is at least equal to the S&B, if not higher (depending upon actual build and gear available). This means that, assuming roughly equal hit points (and in absence of any healing) a TWF style character has greater survivability than a S&B style character.

It seems that level 9 is the high-point for S&B style characters: +5 MTS become available at level 8 and +4 stat items at level 9. At this point, S&B survivability begins to fall compared to TWF.

To regain a roughly equal survivability, S&B needs a bit of a boost. Here are two options that could work and would like to see more discussion about:

1) Feat: Shield Combat Mastery
This has been discussed earlier in the thread – effectively this allows a % of the blocking DR to be applied at all times when a shield is equipped, with larger shields getting a larger % than smaller ones.
Min BAB +10, and possibly +12.

An Improved version of this would give a higher % and should be at least min BAB +14.

2) Active Feat: Two-Weapon Fighting: Shield
This allows a S&B style character access to the TWF fighting style by using a shield in the off-hand instead of a second weapon. Shields already have damage values and to-hit adjustments (used when trying to shield-bash) so all that is really needed may be some animation work. Shields do not normally have offensive effects (and in my opinion should not be given them except for ‘guard’ flavoured ones), so the DPS increase from the shield attacks will be minimal. The extra attacks with the main weapon will also help to increase DPS – though not to full TWF standards.
This Feat will reduce TWF penalties as per the standard TWF Feat (though it will only apply to shields).
BAB should be at least +10, with a min Dex of 15.
The ‘Improved TWF’ Feat would also modify this Feat.

[Aspenor]

I'm replying to a fallacy with a fallacy. Yours was the appeal to novelty.

Change is not always good. Sometimes, change is bad. That was my point.

No, you misread my statement.

Nowhere did I say that the proposal was superior simply because it is new, or different. I'd like to see where I said that.

What I stated was "the idea is to go forward, not backward."

Meaning, make due with what we have now, and make changes to the status quo that add to, rather than subtract from, it.

This is how I would like to see the game developed, it is an assertion of opinion and not fact. I would prefer that the developers see that once a mechanic is in place, and people come to rely on it, that they develop new mechanics rather than going back to change the old.

[Turial]

....
1) Feat: Shield Combat Mastery
This has been discussed earlier in the thread – effectively this allows a % of the blocking DR to be applied at all times when a shield is equipped, with larger shields getting a larger % than smaller ones.
Min BAB +10, and possibly +12.

An Improved version of this would give a higher % and should be at least min BAB +14.
......

It all depends on if the DR stacks with passive DR or is singular DR that overrides the others. It also depends on the % DR it allows.

By that I mean: you have Shield Combat Mastery and it A. allows you to have a DR of 5/-, if it stacks with another source of DR 5/- you would get DR 10/- which is similar to how blocking with a shield works or B. provides DR 5/- even through you have another source of DR/-.

I believe that option B is better then A because it allows barbarians to retain their passive DR supremacy (exception being forged). If you have option A it may be possible to have shield users to have better passive DR then the one class that gets it as a class feature.

[Borror0]

This is how I would like to see the game developed, it is an assertion of opinion and not fact. I would prefer that the developers see that once a mechanic is in place, and people come to rely on it, that they develop new mechanics rather than going back to change the old.

But for that, you have to assume that the mechanic is something desirable.

Let's give paladins an aura that mobs have to make a 50 Fortitude save every 6 seconds otherwise they die. Then, combined that with the dispelling aura of the Holy Avenger to dispell mobs' Deathward. Since the ability to dispell from the Avenger and the death effect aura require level 20 of paladin, let's not nerf neither of them because folks have started relying on others.

I know this is extreme and this is nowhere as unbalancing as that would be, but the point is still the same. Refusing to change something just because others started using is silly. Sure, you try not to. But, sometimes it is worth it. The idea is to bring it in line with what it should be rather than let it be overpowered.

[Turial]

No, you misread my statement.

Nowhere did I say that the proposal was superior simply because it is new, or different. I'd like to see where I said that.

What I stated was "the idea is to go forward, not backward."

Meaning, make due with what we have now, and make changes to the status quo that add to, rather than subtract from, it.

This is how I would like to see the game developed, it is an assertion of opinion and not fact. I would prefer that the developers see that once a mechanic is in place, and people come to rely on it, that they develop new mechanics rather than going back to change the old.

I can see your point on this but so far turbine hasn't done a good job of following "forward, not backward". Many times they have used nerfs to help balance things.

1. Ranged combat ROA nerf (they have tried boosting this back a few times but its still not enough to make this more then situationaly useful as a combat style)
2. Nerf to fighter attack boost coupled with nerf to mob AC (allowed many other classes to finally start hitting mobs)
3. Evasion change
4. Mobs species density that have high SR and high HP in quests (this was too extreme)

[Cold_Stele]

This where your "The best solution is rarely the easiest OR the fastest."

Unfortunately Borro for the devs I'm pretty sure it's a case of "the best solution is the one which makes the most money".

Nerfs = disgruntled customers who may quit.

Power creep = customers may get frustrated, but they reroll and renew subscriptions.

If they nerf JUST ONE of these new builds then people are going to stop rerolling and subscriptions will drop.

I know it's true cos I've done it myself two times already - got PO'ed at the way the metagame is going, quit for a couple of months and played something else, then come back and rolled the latest uber build. Sad but true...

[Borror0]

I just think that if you manage to keep a good balance and react quickly to what goes wrong, you could keep a better business than if you go with power creep.

Power creed, IMO, is the best way if you're lazy or if you've lost the passion you once had in your work.

[Aesop]

I am starting to feel unloved here folks. You would rather discuss he said she said BS and whether nerfing is bad or not than to discuss ideas as have been presented.

1. If we don't have to Nerf we probably shouldn't as, yes people get ticked when you break their toys.

2. Inflation is bad. We keep adding more hard to get toys and eventually the casual and near casual players will just up and leave. People get ticked when you don't let them have their toys. Its like holding a steak just outside the reach of a lion... yeah go ahead and tease him ... just pray that the bars hold

3. Inflated characters just mean inflated Mobs. Everytime a build becomes all powerful a nerf happens in the form of some random dramatic change to the Mobs that make them thuroughly annoying until someone finds the most effective strategy against them... this usually ends up leaving a lot of other players out of the loop and their characters trailing behind... and that isn't fun either. Fire Wall was the be all end all a few mods ago and now TWF WoP is king... oh how I hate WoP and honestly wish I could nerf it into oblivion because it makes half the players feel like gimped out 10 strength 10 Cha Bards with a masterwork dagger. Its not fun.

4. Finding a balance through all of this is a pain in the rectum, but arguing about Fallacy and Strawmen and whatever other nerd rage terms ya want to throw around isn't progressing the thread its bogging it down in a quagmire of utter ridiculousness... GET OVER IT


4a. NO one gives a rats ass whether you Asp or you Bor agree on this; so if you still need to argue about whether a nerf is needed after 15 pages take it to the PMs please. It is counter productive to the very core of the thread and tramples over peoples ideas.



CAN WE PLEASE TRY TO FIND COMMON GROUND?

Aesop


ps all this probably stems from my fruustration over not having any of my thoughts discussed and merely glossed over in favor of unhelpful bickering

[Aesop]

Made some minor modifications...


Alchemical Rituals
Have the bonuses be based on Shield or Armor type. I'm for a +1 apply to Light Armor, Cloth Armor, Bucklers and Light Shields, and a +2 for Medium and Heavy Armor and Heavy and Tower Shields.

I also suggest a second tier of Alchemical Rituals that require a Shield Previously Enchanted by the first tier ritual that applies the same bonus and a Blocking DR or Deflection Bonus.

Example:
Alchemical Ritual of Blocking : Ingredients: Bound Alchemically Enhanced Shield, 25 Greater Earth Soul Stones.
Effect: Improves the Blocking DR of the Shield by 2 for Bucklers and Light Shields and by 4 for Heavy and Tower Shields

Additionally there is a Feat in the Players Handbook 2 called

Shield Specialization
Grants +1 AC when using Shields (and is a prerequisite for other Feat)(could also allow it to increase the Max Dex Bonus from Tower Shields)
Another option here is to have this apply a multiple tiered effect as well and have it cover a few different ideas at the same time.
Example:
Shield Specialization
This Feat grants +1 AC when using Bucklers or Light Shields and a +2 to Heavy and Tower Shields. This Feat also increases the Maximum Dex Bonus of Tower Shields by 1 and increases the DR while blocking with a shield by 5.
I’d have this feat replace the Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery Feats.
Another thing to consider is the Armor Mastery Enhancements . I think a slight change here would be better for fighters. Make the Armor Mastery Line only 2 tiers and create a Separate line called Armor Optimization that instead of increasing the Max Dex Bonus increases the Armor Bonus.

Fighter Armor Optimization I
2AP
+1 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)
Fighter Armor Optimization II
4AP
+2 AC while wearing armor (pjs don't count)


Fighter Armor Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus
Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus


Fighter Shield Mastery I
2AP
+1 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+2 Blocking DR any Shield

Fighter Armor Mastery II
4AP
+2 Max Dex Bonus with a Tower Shield
+4 Blocking DR with any Shield




DR
Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
Grant DR 2/- with that type of Armor
I think that armors that have a natural DR/- should stack with this ie: Adamantine Full Plate would become DR5/-
This may not sound like a lot of DR but over the course of a quest could add up significantly. But perhaps this one is too weak and a little more is needed as well, in that case I wrote up a second suggestion below

Armor Specialization
Requires BAB +12
This Feat Increases the Maximum Dexterity Bonus that may be applied to a given set of Armor by 1 and Increases the Armor’s natural DR by 2-4 points; 2 for Light Armor, 3 for Medium Armor and 4 for Heavy Armor. Thus a chain Shirt with no natural DR while worn by someone with this Feat would have a DR of 2/- while the same character wearing a set of Adamantine Full Plate (DR3/-) would have a DR of 7/-

Avoidance and Deflection
A thought that passed around was applying a new incentive to shield users… This could be difficult but I think it would also be a good way to balance things out. Apply a “Miss Chance” based on Shield bonus to AC. Actually instead of a Miss Chance so much a chance to absorb some of the blow. Basically if a attacker scores a hit against the Shielded character a percent chance is rolled to see if the defender takes the shot on the shield and absorbs some of the damage. He is still hit so any of the non physical damage goes through but if the shield takes the brunt of the force the damage would be reduced by the defenders blocking DR.
I’d suggest making the chance relative to the shield bonus and give Tower Shields a Bonus for Cover and Bucklers a penalty. I think the base deflection bonus should be 2% per point of Shield AC with the buckler counting as 1 lower and Tower Shields as 2 higher.

so a +5 Buckler is 10%
and a +5 Tower Shield 22%

Now combine that with a few of the other ideas put forward in this post like the Alchemical Ritual modification and Shield Specialization Feat and a +5 Alchemically Treated Buckler comes out as 14% and the Tower Shield as 30%
A top tier maxed out(+5 Ritual and Feat) Heavy Shield would yield 22%... not too bad considering. No real need for the Paladin to get the Tower Shield Feat unless he really feels he needs to for his build.
Now add on to that the following two Feat that I heavily modified from the Players Handbook and I think we have a strong potential

Active Shield Defense
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (AoO) while Fighting Defensively without Penalty

Well we don't have AoO in DDO so something different and I think this lends itself well to be an additional 1% per Shield Bonus to Shield Deflection. So that top tiered Alchemically Enhanced Tower Shield goes from 20% Deflection rate to 45% and the Heavy Shield from 22% to 33%.


Shield Ward
Requires Shield Specialization
Grants the shields AC bonus to touch AC, and a bonus to resist Bull Rush, Overrun, Trip, Disarm and Grapple

Now we don't have Touch Attacks in DDO... but we have Rays that we have little defense against. I think having this apply the Deflection rate against Rays would be a way to make this a highly desirable ability.

Damage
Now damage mitigation isn't the only issue with S&B fighting ... we also have a low damage which doesn't make the style very well liked.

A suggestion I made was giving S&B Passive Shield Bash sort of like the THF glancing blows and to improve the Feat Improved Shield Bash to improve that function. I'd say these Shield Bashes wouldn't be AOE like glancing blow but instead would apply to the target being attacked and would apply more direct damage.

[Vorn]

With the emphasis on keeping things simple for the New Players (NPE on the horizon, remember?) and not to have their eyes gloss over when trying to figure out the metamathematics of these complicated dr/avoidance formulas, y'all might be better off arguing about feats/enhancements that give +1/+2/+3/+4/+x to ac when using a shield and/or shields/armor that are above +5 in their protection value for the 20th lvl expansion (some of the examples from NWN2's expansion come to mind). We already have artifact equivalent items, might as well have some more appropriate for the next level cap.

Item inflation in a Monty Haul video game campaign? Hee, hee, hee... Sorry, that just really hit my funny bone.

Of course, perhaps better not to mention improved two weapon defense or greater two weapon defense as some folks might get defensive...or offensive!

[Aesop]

With the emphasis on keeping things simple for the New Players (NPE on the horizon, remember?) and not to have their eyes gloss over when trying to figure out the metamathematics of these complicated dr/avoidance formulas, y'all might be better off arguing about feats/enhancements that give +1/+2/+3/+4/+x to ac when using a shield and/or shields/armor that are above +5 in their protection value for the 20th lvl expansion (some of the examples from NWN2's expansion come to mind). We already have artifact equivalent items, might as well have some more appropriate for the next level cap.

Item inflation in a Monty Haul video game campaign? Hee, hee, hee... Sorry, that just really hit my funny bone.

Of course, perhaps better not to mention improved two weapon defense or greater two weapon defense as some folks might get defensive...or offensive!

I have no problem with TWD ITWD or GTWD if the character wants it I'm more than happy to let them have it. I'd even say that they should drop TWB and incorporate it into TWD line and have it add a %cahnce to absorb damage like the suggestion I made for Shields above

The problem isn't just a simple AC issue its a stylistic issue that encompasses the very basics and the very peak of combat in the game. Just increasing AC isn't a solution its a bandaid that will fall off

Aesop

[Aesop]

Oh hey I was just remembering a little blurb A_D had in one of his Posts...

just can't remember which one.

He made a suggestion to have either short Feat series or some such (maybe enhacements) based on things out of ToB (Tome of Battle)

I think some stuff out of there would be nice to play with

Aesop

[Naash]

My suggestions
[*]Do you think that S&B could use more DPS, also, to be brought back in line?

Yep. Perhaps a feat that grants a 10% stacking speed boost for S&B combat?

With todays announcement of yet another boost to TWF(monk) I think this would be a great feat.

[Alcides]

With todays announcement of yet another boost to TWF(monk) I think this would be a great feat.

TWF should do more DPS than S&B. S&B should really get more AC mechanics and more threat mechanics while using a shield. It's a defensive way of fighting not offensive...

[Borror0]

TWF should do more DPS than S&B. S&B should really get more AC mechanics and more threat mechanics while using a shield. It's a defensive way of fighting not offensive...

But it is always right to ask yourself by how much should S&B be behind.

[Turial]

But it is always right to ask yourself by how much should S&B be behind.

How far behind is S&B from TWF? 55% abouts?

[Borror0]

How far behind is S&B from TWF? 55% abouts?

Last time I calculated, S&B was at like 48% of THF... for the same build. (I was comparing two paladins.)

[Turial]

Last time I calculated, S&B was at like 48% of THF... for the same build. (I was comparing two paladins.)

Looks like I need to do my DPS comparison again:
Two warhammers (tempest)
Two warhammers
Maul
Warhammer and shield
Longbow

I think repeaters fall some where inbetween maul and two warhammers.

Reason that I use blunt weapons is because the damage is fairly standard to that of ranged weapons. That allows people to wildly speculate on how better weapons change things.

Two Warhammers (tempest)
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 365 Attacks (329 normal, 36 critical)
Damage = 4151 ~35 DPS

Two Warhammers
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 332 Attacks (299 normal, 33 critical)
Damage = 3781 ~32 DPS

Repeater
4.5 damage +5 from enhancement = 9.5
x2 critical x 9.5 = 19 critical hit
Crit change 20% with IC
Over 2 min 240 attacks (192 normal, 48 critical)
Damage = 2736 ~23 DPS

Maul
5.5 +5 from enhancement = 10.5
x3 critical x 10.5 = 31.5
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 152 +31 Glancing 1 and 46 glancing 2 = 214 Attacks (193 normal, 21 critical)
Damage = 2688 ~22 DPS

Warhammer
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 178 attacks (161 normal, 17 critical)
Damage = 2014 ~17 DPS

Longbow
4.5 damage + 5 from enhancement = 9.5
x3 critical x 9.5 = 28.5 critical hit
Crit chance 10% with IC
Over 2 min 159 attacks with manyshot (144 normal, 15 critical)
Damage = 1795.5 ~14 DPS
Over 2 min 106 attacks without manyshot (96 normal, 10 critical)
Damage = 1197 ~10 DPS

Very simplistic compairison between the various combat forms to give an idea of where they stand if you look at just one vanilla character.

[dageth]

It all depends on if the DR stacks with passive DR or is singular DR that overrides the others. It also depends on the % DR it allows.

By that I mean: you have Shield Combat Mastery and it A. allows you to have a DR of 5/-, if it stacks with another source of DR 5/- you would get DR 10/- which is similar to how blocking with a shield works or B. provides DR 5/- even through you have another source of DR/-.

I believe that option B is better then A because it allows barbarians to retain their passive DR supremacy (exception being forged). If you have option A it may be possible to have shield users to have better passive DR then the one class that gets it as a class feature.

Option A would still allow a Barbarian to achieve even higher DR by picking up a shield, thus retaining class supremacy. Barbarians currently leverage their superior Strength by using TWF or THF. Giving them the option to pick up a shield to increase their DR even further might encourage S&B use when that slow-in-the-mud cleric isn't able to stay right on them as they zerg through the quest and would also increase their tanking capabilities.

I suppose an Option C might be to make it an active feat of some sort - trading to-hit for increased DR.