"Why balance is something desirable?"

[Borror0]

Those really aren't good examples, because nobody splashes one or two levels in another class for the enhancements.

It was for simplicity.

I'm more curious how it would affect deep multiclasses, such as my 8rog/8ftr, 8rog/6ftr/2pal, or my planned 12pal/6ftr/2mnk, or all those 6rgr tempest MCs.

None of them would be affected, they are all humans.

Some specific enhancements may be overpowered, but that has nothing to do with multiclassing.

I don't think there is that much of a problem with multiclassing either. I think it's mostly that there is a problem with pure classes.

[Drinkin]

...seems you really don't see why Critical Rage II is overpowered.

I guess I don't see why you and so many other people think that it is over powered... I think that it's an opinion you are entitled yours I am to mine.

[Noctus]

Bump-fairy here you go.

[Borror0]

Bump-fairy here you go.

LOL! On that topic, I'll probably write another thread in a similar way soon. Probably on inflation.

[Angelus_dead]

This thread needs more Angel Summoner.

[Borror0]

This thread needs more Angel Summoner.

Quoted for truth!

[moorewr]

Good necro. I missed this when you originally posted it...

I've been asking in various places a question I will repeat here: should a design goal of DDO be to replicate the imbalances of the source game - d20 D&D v3.5?

In other words, is this a game we should view more as a separate set of design decisions, or more like the movie of a popular book?


PS: loved the Angel Summoner video. Made me want to play Champions.

[underlordone]

Just read the post just the first part and all I have to say is we are playing a game that was never made to be balanced but each class has it own thing that is over powered. This is not really cookie cutter game. As much as we have our builds that look like it no one class can do every thing.

Enjoy the game don't let your lack of ac,dps or even saves stop you from haveing fun. It's 10% build 90% person behind keybord playing that makes that alt work.

[Borror0]

Should a design goal of DDO be to replicate the imbalances of the source game - d20 D&D v3.5

If the only two choices are yes and no, the answer would be no.

If you ask if we should be after all the imbalances of the source game, the answer would be different. Some imbalances are just too bad for the game to be left out. For example, it would be unacceptable to let a spellcasting classes dominate the game, even if that's the case in 3.5 D&D. Likewise, it is unacceptable for a class to be a total pushover, even if that's the case in D&D.

Fidelity to the source game is valuable, and it should be a design goal, but some flaws are just too great to be tolerated.

Likewise, some changes, even if good for the game, would be a too great deviation from the rules to be acceptable.

[Borror0]

Enjoy the game don't let your lack of ac,dps or even saves stop you from haveing fun.

Having fun playing that 6 Str/10 Dex/8 Con/18 Int/18 Wis/8 Cha fighter halfling?

"Having fun" is subjective. We all have a moment where our character's effectiveness negatively affects the enjoyment we get from the game.

[moorewr]

If the only two choices are yes and no, the answer would be no.

If you ask if we should be after all the imbalances of the source game, the answer would be different. Some imbalances are just too bad for the game to be left out. For example, it would be unacceptable to let a spellcasting classes dominate the game, even if that's the case in 3.5 D&D. Likewise, it is unacceptable for a class to be a total pushover, even if that's the case in D&D.

Fidelity to the source game is valuable, and it should be a design goal, but some flaws are just too great to be tolerated.

All or nothing is not what I was implying -- this is why I made the analogy to the movie of a novel. Certain things must change in a 'near real time" MMO. Touch AC, spell slots, and initiative are examples of things that needed to be altered to fit your screen.

Casters are weak at low levels in DDO just like in PnP - well, till the Wall of Fire Easy Button shows up in your spell list.. and I think that's fine - after all, that faithfully reproduces the flavor of pen and paper play.

I think what I'm saying is.. where should your emphasis be? On 'how does this work in PnP?' or on 'does this work in PnP?'

[Borror0]

I think what I'm saying is.. where should your emphasis be? On 'how does this work in PnP?' or on 'does this work in PnP?'

If by 'does this work in PnP?' you meant 'is it annoying enough to warrant alterations?', then I would go for the latter and so should anyone with half a brain.

If I misunderstood, then please reword your question.

[moorewr]

If by 'does this work in PnP?' you meant 'is it annoying enough to warrant alterations?', then I would go for the latter and so should anyone with half a brain.

If I misunderstood, then I reword your question please.

Yep, you're going to have to reword my question.

Again, I said emphasis. Given a choice the PnP rules should be a large factor in your decision.. the question is how large.. but this does not require you to behave dogmatically or robotically.

[Borror0]

Yep, you're going to have to reword my question.

D'oh.

Better now?

Again, I said emphasis. Given a choice the PnP rules should be a large factor in your decision.. the question is how large.

It's a really hard to answer question, if we are allowed to not act dogmatically.

Things like using a d20, to me, are sacred. However, I feel no shame saying I enjoy the enhancement system or arguing in favor of changing core mechanics like Evasion or monks' bonus to AC to be less front-loaded, making S&B matter, making casters not suck at low levels and not dominate at higher levels.

Where does that put me?

I think everything should be case by case. Eight the pros and cons of each decision. Someone could voice there opinion on where my focus is, but that would be subjective and not objective, don't you think?

[Angelus_dead]

Casters are weak at low levels in DDO just like in PnP

Level 1 Wizard + CR 4 Ogre + Sleep + Coup De Grace (Scythe) = Win

[moorewr]

Level 1 Wizard + CR 4 Ogre + Sleep + Coup De Grace (Scythe) = Win

Excellent example of what that caster can do.. once per day..

Haven't we all sat there watching a table-top battle wondering "is this when I should use my one single 3rd level spell?"

[Scipio]

For example, it would be unacceptable to let a spellcasting classes dominate the game, even if that's the case in 3.5 D&D.

I would say that spell casting did not dominate 3.5 d&d, but just a large percentage of the play styles out there. Play styles that have casters doing nothing but casting and getting to rest when ever they want will of course dominate. When the play style gives reasons to not spell cast all the time then they will not dominate.

[Scipio]

Level 1 Wizard + CR 4 Ogre + Sleep + Coup De Grace (Scythe) = Win

Level 1 Fighter + waits for CR4 ogre to fall asleep + Coup De Grace (Spear) = Win

More ways then magic to skin that ogre.

[Korvek]

Level 1 Fighter + waits for CR4 ogre to fall asleep + Coup De Grace (Spear) = Win

More ways then magic to skin that ogre.

Nah, the ogre working the night shift would show up to let the one working the day shift leave.

[Borror0]

When the play style gives reasons to not spell cast all the time then they will not dominate.

Huh?