The Default Sabbat Cleric Build

[Grenfell]

While it's fun to discuss interesting new build concepts, from time to time there are those who want to try a cleric for the first time and want just a solid build that will give them the basics. This is the build I recommend to all guild members who wish to try out a cleric.

It's a 32pter, but can easily be made into a 28pt build by reducing Con to 16.

The Default
Dwarf, 15clr/1ftr

Str 14 +6 = 20
Dex 8
Con 18 +6 +2 enh = 26 (+8)
Int 8
Wis 18 +4 lvls +3 enh +1 tome +6 item = 32 (+11)
Cha 6

1-11 Cleric
12 Fighter
13-16 Cleric

Feats:

1 - Empower Healing
3 - Extend
6 - Toughness
9 - Quicken
12 - Maximize, (Bonus: IC: Piercing)
15 - Empower

HP:
020 Base
010 Draconic
010 Ftr 1
120 Clr 15
128 Con bonus
018 Toughness feat
018 Minos Legens
050 Dwarven Tough IV
005 Ftr Tough I
030 Greater False LIfe
--------------------------
409 HP

Add Shroud items and +2 tomes and such to taste.

The power of the 400+hp cleric with self-cast, quickened Heal for 427 is something else.

Enhancements:
[dwarf] - Constitution (Dwarven) I (2)
[dwarf] - Constitution (Dwarven) II (4)
[dwarf] - Faith I (1)
[dwarf] - Faith II (2)
[dwarf] - Spell Defense I (1)
[dwarf] - Spell Defense II (2)
[dwarf] - Spell Defense III (3)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) I (1)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) II (2)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) III (3)
[dwarf] - Toughness (Dwarven) IV (4)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot I (1)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot II (2)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot III (3)
[cleric] - Energy of the Zealot IV (4)
[cleric] - Life Magic I (1)
[cleric] - Life Magic II (2)
[cleric] - Life Magic III (3)
[cleric] - Life Magic IV (4)
[cleric] - Prayer of Life I (1)
[cleric] - Prayer of Life II (2)
[cleric] - Prayer of Life III (3)
[cleric] - Wisdom I (2)
[cleric] - Wisdom II (4)
[cleric] - Wisdom III (6)
[fighter] - Toughness I (1)

Those are the enhancements I would roll with, personally. No need for axe enhancements, since you'll be using rapiers most of the time for all those cool crit-effects (banishing, smiting, WoP) as anything you can DPS to death will fall to your BB's.

If you MUST swing an axe, just make a Min-II Dwarven Axe which has keen built right into it. And remember that undead can't be critted, and vorpals don't care except on a 20 anyhow.

14 base Str is plenty high until GH to be killing stuff with a mace. If at 12, you don't particularly want to melee things dead, then just stay pure cleric. Feat selection doesn't change.

Ain't fancy, ain't complicated, but for your basic healing, fighting, casting cleric... it works extremely smoothly.

/gren

[Nyvn]

Very solid build Gren, strong in just every area. Insane HP especially for a cleric. If you're finding yourself casting more and fighting less. Another options would be Paladin instead of Ftr, no bonus feat (Imp Crit) but this still opens martial weapons(incase you don't want to quit melee entirely), and gives more SP. It's also tailor made to respec into casting if a player was so inclined.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

How about if you dont want to melee at all, substitute the fighter level with a wiz level, allowing you another metamagic feat? (I havent played a clr yet and debating, would i need enlarge?)

[Angelus_dead]

12 - Maximize, (Bonus: IC: Piercing)
15 - Empower

Both Maximize and Empower is excessive specialization for a general-purpose character.

Anyone with a fighter level should have Power Attack.

[Impaqt]

Enlarge is handy, but far fromnecessary ona cleric.

I Personally dont see the benefit of a Fighter level at level 12. You already have Blade barrier and with a 20 STR, your not melee focuses.... I'm Much rather see Paly in this build so your not hur on Spell Points at all.

WHats with the Power attackign clerics tonight A_D? Toally not necessary in this build.

[Angelus_dead]

WHats with the Power attackign clerics tonight A_D? Toally not necessary in this build.

Because if you don't have Power Attack, you're not good at melee (with the exception of 10+ rogue levels).

If you take a fighter level, that indicates you want to be good at melee. Otherwise, one of the key benefits of a fighter level (martial weapon proficiency) isn't helping you.

This character would be a better default if he swapped Empower for Power Attack. His Blade Barrier would drop to 225 instead of 335, but it also costs less mana. And his ability to do melee things is greatly increased, which means his capabilities are more balanced, which is what a "default build" should be.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

Sorry to derail you guys from the melee clr again, but for a NONE melee clr, any benefits to multiclassing at all?

[Impaqt]

Because if you don't have Power Attack, you're not good at melee (with the exception of 10+ rogue levels).

If you take a fighter level, that indicates you want to be good at melee. Otherwise, one of the key benefits of a fighter level (martial weapon proficiency) isn't helping you.

Or maybe it just means he wants an extra feat, a Few extra Hit Points, TS Proficency, and Martial Weapon Proficency.

[Angelus_dead]

Sorry to derail you guys from the melee clr again, but for a NONE melee clr, any benefits to multiclassing at all?

That should really be a separate thread. However, the answer is YES, there can be benefits:
1. Rogue / monk levels: Evasion to protect you from damage
2. Monk levels: Water stance for +1 spell DCs (dependent on acquiring caster kamas)
3. Paladin levels: saves/AC to protect you from damage, with pally mana countering the lost cleric mana.
4. Sorc level: more mana. Don't do this, it's a trap
5. Wizard level: bonus metamagic feat.

However, for a non-melee cleric I don't really recommend any of them.

[BurningDownTheHouse]

That should really be a separate thread. However, the answer is YES, there can be benefits:
1. Rogue / monk levels: Evasion to protect you from damage
2. Monk levels: Water stance for +1 spell DCs (dependent on acquiring caster kamas)
3. Paladin levels: saves/AC to protect you from damage, with pally mana countering the lost cleric mana.
4. Sorc level: more mana. Don't do this, it's a trap
5. Wizard level: bonus metamagic feat.

However, for a non-melee cleric I don't really recommend any of them.

Good to know, cleric class here i come!
Thanks much (not TANKS much though ).

[Grenfell]

Both Maximize and Empower is excessive specialization for a general-purpose character.

Anyone with a fighter level should have Power Attack.

With 20 str, it just isn't worth it, especially when your melee weapons are almost always specialty weapons -- banishers, smiters, and WoP's. The -5 to hit (and confirm) is not a happy place.

If you need to do DPS, you're dropping BB's anyhow. YMMV.

Feel free to swap out Empower for Power Attack -- I think most people will find that they almost never turn on PA.

/gren

[Grenfell]

Enlarge is handy, but far fromnecessary ona cleric.

I Personally dont see the benefit of a Fighter level at level 12. You already have Blade barrier and with a 20 STR, your not melee focuses.... I'm Much rather see Paly in this build so your not hur on Spell Points at all.

WHats with the Power attackign clerics tonight A_D? Toally not necessary in this build.

FWIW, I have one with paladin instead of fighter, and one with fighter, but I really, really like banishing rapiers for soloing Vale. Yeah, it can be done with BB's instead, but more SP-intensive. It's fun to be out of SP completely, then fight your way to the shrine using Heal scrolls. But that's just me.

If I were to do it again, I wouldn't go Paladin, btw, but Ranger. Sprint Boost I absolutely rocks, and you still get the bonus SP.

Again, the base is flexible: all cleric spells, 400+ hp, top heal capacity. Change it up as suits your taste. Then once you've got the whole cleric playstyle down, make a new one that really fits how you play the game -- low str caster, melee-focused battlecleric with more strength (I'm fond of the 12clr/4ftr/1rgr on those), whatever.

/gren

[Samadhi]

With 20 str, it just isn't worth it, especially when your melee weapons are almost always specialty weapons -- banishers, smiters, and WoP's. The -5 to hit (and confirm) is not a happy place.

If you need to do DPS, you're dropping BB's anyhow. YMMV.

Feel free to swap out Empower for Power Attack -- I think most people will find that they almost never turn on PA.

/gren

Agreed, PA is absolutely pointless on a str 20 build. You're never going to hit; and why try once you get blade barrier anyway? Plus, the more damage your BB's hit for, the less work you need to do to get them all dead.

[Kreaper]

If I were to do it again, I wouldn't go Paladin, btw, but Ranger. Sprint Boost I absolutely rocks, and you still get the bonus SP.

That's what I did. If you take Pally your spells are limited a little by your LG alignment. Taking Ranger fixes that. And yes, Speed Boost I rocks. I have had to run more than a few groups of scattering zergers to the shrine and was able to prevent wipes.

[sirgog]

Agreed, PA is absolutely pointless on a str 20 build. You're never going to hit; and why try once you get blade barrier anyway? Plus, the more damage your BB's hit for, the less work you need to do to get them all dead.

I agree that PA isn't a good call on a 20 Str toon, but being able to melee properly is very viable on a Clr, as clerics that are built for it can be very effective at meleeing raid bosses and can do much more damage doing that than they ever could with BB.

That said, to achieve that level of melee prowess requires sacrifices that are quite significant (i.e. lower Wisdom to have a higher Str). IMO both partial-melee clerics like the OP's build and heavier melee builds are viable - the latter should take Power Attack and use it a lot - the former should not.

With respect to multiclassing, I generally advise to avoid multiclassing Clerics unless you have a very compelling reason to do so - and IMO the OP's build does not. The sacrifice of spell penetration rating and a few SP is more of a loss than what a 20 Str cleric gains from using martial weapons like the Dorf Axe, IMO.

[MysticRhythms]

I actually like the idea of Power Attack offered by Angelus dead.

You're taking a Fighter level after all and maintaining a very respectable strength score. At higher levels you have lots of short term buffs to fuel power Attack.


one thing I wonder about - all of those AP's spent on hyper-specialization (namely the 4th tier of certain enhancements). You could get a whole extra line or two of enhancements up to third tier just by dropping a few 4th tier options.

Why not go there if you're trying to be a "default" build?

I mean ... are the extra hit points form Toughness IV and the extra mana from Energy of the Zealot IV really worth a total of 8AP's? You could possibly get some Spell Penetration enhancements or maybe go for those axe enhancements instead.

To me it seems like 4AP's for a 10% kick on things is just not as good as spending 6 AP's to get a 30% boost someplace else.

[sirgog]

I actually like the idea of Power Attack offered by Angelus dead.

You're taking a Fighter level after all and maintaining a very respectable strength score. At higher levels you have lots of short term buffs to fuel power Attack.


one thing I wonder about - all of those AP's spent on hyper-specialization (namely the 4th tier of certain enhancements). You could get a whole extra line or two of enhancements up to third tier just by dropping a few 4th tier options.

Why not go there if you're trying to be a "default" build?

I mean ... are the extra hit points form Toughness IV and the extra mana from Energy of the Zealot IV really worth a total of 8AP's? You could possibly get some Spell Penetration enhancements or maybe go for those axe enhancements instead.

To me it seems like 4AP's for a 10% kick on things is just not as good as spending 6 AP's to get a 30% boost someplace else.

Toughness 4 is worth it on every character that is eligable.

Energy of the Zealot I wouldn't take past level 2 on most builds.

[MysticRhythms]

Toughness 4 is worth it on every character that is eligable.

Why? I mean, I understand that more hit points is better, but 4 AP's for them? On a character that already has over 350? Yuck. How many APs would you spend if there were an infinite scale? What if Toughness 5 gave you another boost for 5AP's and Toughness VI and so on? Where would you stop and say "whoa - that's really blowing my AP's?"

Energy of the Zealot I wouldn't take past level 2 on most builds.

I'd argue the same for Toughness, personally. It seems like hit points do saturate at some point. I mean - play a barbarian if you're that obsessed with it points (IMO).

[Anthios888]

I think the difference that Sirgog is trying to make is that while most enhancement lines have diminishing returns, toughness is even - always 5 hp per action point.

Energy of the Zealot 3 - 30 mana for 3 ap
Energy of the Zealot 4 - 30 mana for 4 ap

Toughness 3 - 15 hp for 3 ap
Toughness 4 - 20 hp for 4 ap

Spell penetration 1 - +1 for 2 ap
Spell penetration 2 - +1 for 4 ap
Spell penetration 3 - +1 for 6 ap

So, toughness 4 is a better investment for a generalist than energy of the zealot 4, unless you want mana more than anything, like many clerics.

[Sue_Dark]

Because if you don't have Power Attack, you're not good at melee (with the exception of 10+ rogue levels).

As a blanket statement this is just wrong.

Fighters without PA can do just fine. Without top shroud/power 5 weapons, I might add. More hits > more damage on fewer hits to many ppl. On a pure fighter type, or fighter with splash(es), I would possibly agree that PA was good, maybe even necessary, to have. On anything else, I must disagree.

If you take a fighter level, that indicates you want to be good at melee. Otherwise, one of the key benefits of a fighter level (martial weapon proficiency) isn't helping you.

Again I must disagree. There is alot more offered than just Martial weapon prof when considering a fighter splash. Martial weapons really are just a perk, more than a key benefit. Things like toughness enhancements, armor mastery, tower shield prof, attack/def boosts, a touch more hp, and possibly more that I cant recall atm.

Yes the OP's build starts with 8 Dex, so armor mastery isnt a big deal. However, 8 can turn into 16 relatively easily, depending on tome availability. Then he has wasted Dex that could be used for Defense. Quite honestly, in place of PA, I'd rather have shield mastery for the added blocking DR. But that's just me. If I'm gonna play a cleric, I want a defensive tank that can drop a monster BB when the situation calls for it.

This character would be a better default if he swapped Empower for Power Attack. His Blade Barrier would drop to 225 instead of 335, but it also costs less mana. And his ability to do melee things is greatly increased, which means his capabilities are more balanced, which is what a "default build" should be.

I actually think that PA should never be on a "default" cleric. There are better things to use feats on that will benefit the character or party more in the long run. On a melee centered battle cleric or a primary attack fighter, yes, as I said before, PA may be useful, but is certainly not required.