Request for some balancing

[The_Phenx]

Simple request for a tough debate.

Can we re-balance the action point cost for fighters armor mastery and shield mastery feats.

Currently they take

2 +1 ac
4 +1 additional
6 +1 additional

So that is 12 Action points for 3 ac add to the dex bonus on your armor
And 12 additional AP to allow 3 more to the dex bonus on your shield.

24 total action points.

Compared to the paltry 4 action points that tempest takes.
for +2 ac and 10% alacrity.

Just doesn't seem to equal out.

1 pt
2 pt
3 pt

Would seem to be more in line with how it should be compared to the other enhancement lines. This would also help a TON now that you are releasing fighter tactical enhancements.

Can I get a yes a no or a we are working on it?

Thanks devs.

[frederjoe1]

Did you take into account the 3 different feats that a Tempest build must take in order to get that enhancement?

Not trying to get on you because I do not know fighter enhancement lines. What feats does a fighter need to take to get those enhancements?

Not sure there is really a balancing issue between these two lines.

My 2cp

[The_Phenx]

I did take that into consideration, Dodge mobility and SA... Dodge is +1 ac anyway, mobility is useless, SA is a good feat.. so its not like you arent benefitting from them.

No feat requirements for fighters armor mastery, but 12 action points for 3 ac is a bit steep... considering a 1 level monk splash can get a higher ac in pajamas than a fighter using +5 mithral full plate and carrying a +5 mithril tower shield with all the enhancement lines.

AC is very broke at the moment.

[Gennerik]

I think the entire enhancement cost breakdown is too rigid as it is. It seems that someone decided that all costs have to increase as things go on, which seventy limits the flexibility of the system anyway. I think the Fighter AC lines are a little too expensive but there really isn't a middle ground route like there needs to be (like 2,2,2).

[Nikorr123]

Exactly - Tempest is 4 points PLUS 3 feats

All the armor enhancements(mentioned above) is a paltry 24 AP

[The_Phenx]

Exactly - Tempest is 4 points PLUS 3 feats

All the armor enhancements(mentioned above) is a paltry 24 AP

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

[frederjoe1]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

Isn't this kinda the whole point of multiclassing...finding ways to creat different synergies between two seperate classes and hopefully coming up with something better than each by themselves?

Is there something somewhere that requires that a pureclass be better at something than a multiclass...

I am not trying to get your fur up, I am trying to wrap my head around the problem here.

[The_Phenx]

Isn't this kinda the whole point of multiclassing...finding ways to creat different synergies between two seperate classes and hopefully coming up with something better than each by themselves?

Is there something somewhere that requires that a pureclass be better at something than a multiclass...

I am not trying to get your fur up, I am trying to wrap my head around the problem here.

Yes and no... it is but I think the extent of the bonuses are way overpowered.

Think of it this way...
You spend 15 years learning to be a fighter.
Then for the fun of it you spend 1 year in a monastary in china.
All the sudden your 20x more powerful than you were?

Everyone knows the monk splash is overpowered.

I'm not asking for a nerf for that.

Just every fighter out there feels the AP cost for the paltry bonus is unfair.

[frederjoe1]

Yes and no... it is but I think the extent of the bonuses are way overpowered.

Think of it this way...
You spend 15 years learning to be a fighter.
Then for the fun of it you spend 1 year in a monastary in china.
All the sudden your 20x more powerful than you were?

Everyone knows the monk splash is overpowered.

I'm not asking for a nerf for that.

Just every fighter out there feels the AP cost for the paltry bonus is unfair.

I guess looking at it that way it kinda seems a bit overpowered.

[EKKM]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

Especially since it is really only +3 to AC. The tower sheild enhancments dont stack with the armour enhancements they just allow you to also override the max dex on towershields.

Ie Fighter is full plate, max dex is 1, he has a 18 dex allowing for a total of +4. The fighter also equips a towershield which has a max dex of +2.

Spends 12 AP to raise the max dex of his armour to +4. However, his dex bonus to AC is limited to 2 as he has not yet taken the towershield enhancement. To fully reralize the +4 to AC his dex would provide he needs to spend an additional 6AP on the TS enhancement.

A good fix would be to leave the AP cost the same but have the armour enhancements also apply to tower shields.

And yes, 1 level monk splashes are more broken than critical rage II

[The_Phenx]

Especially since it is really only +3 to AC. The tower sheild enhancments dont stack with the armour enhancements they just allow you to also override the max dex on towershields.

I said I was tired... lol... yes your 100% correct... 18 ap to get +3 to ac when using armor and a tower shield.

[nbhs275]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

especially when you also need the dex to fill them out.

Or, heres another one to wrap your brain around... Paladins give the entire group +5 AC for 10 action points. I think it would be fair for a fighter to be able to gain +3 personal AC for 12 action point.

It would also of been nice if they had given fighters ways to enhance the feat trees they actually selected. Example:

Improved TWF Defence:

pre reqs: TWF blocking, TWF Defence: Effect: Gain +1/2/3 AC and 2/4/6 DR(while blocking) while wielding two weapons. costs 2/4/6 AP

[redoubt]

Paltry? I dont consider 33% of all your action points earned for 6 ac bonus paltry.

Especially when you could splash 1 level of monk.. get the 6 ac and 2 free feats.

Even 2 3 4 point cost would be better than what we have now.

I think I am misunderstanding these two lines. I need some help.

fighter armor mastery increases the max dex bonus of your armor up to +3 correct?

fighter shield mastery does the same, correct?

If I am correct then you are spending 24 AP to get up to 3AC (not 6) due to increased dex bonus because the more restrictive of the armor or shield dex bonus will apply.

If you take only armor mastery and get your armor to allow +4 dex but your shield only allows +1 you only get +1. Thus you have to also take shield mastery to get your shield dex bonus up to +4.

Again, total benifit for 24 ap is only 3 AC. Am I getting this right? If I am it seems insanely expensive.

[Blazer]

Am I getting this right?

Yep, you are. Seems a bit silly, doesn't it?

[The_Phenx]

I think I am misunderstanding these two lines. I need some help.

fighter armor mastery increases the max dex bonus of your armor up to +3 correct?

fighter shield mastery does the same, correct?

If I am correct then you are spending 24 AP to get up to 3AC (not 6) due to increased dex bonus because the more restrictive of the armor or shield dex bonus will apply.

If you take only armor mastery and get your armor to allow +4 dex but your shield only allows +1 you only get +1. Thus you have to also take shield mastery to get your shield dex bonus up to +4.

Again, total benifit for 24 ap is only 3 AC. Am I getting this right? If I am it seems insanely expensive.

100% correct.. which is why id needs desperately to be fixed.

[The_Phenx]

Still after some developer love.

[Issip]

Exactly - Tempest is 4 points PLUS 3 feats

All the armor enhancements(mentioned above) is a paltry 24 AP

Tempest is the new batman. It was designed to give rangers a boost to DPS because they are dex based, but is being adapted for strength based TWF dwarves. Enjoy it, but don't expect it to last forever, and don't try to pretend it's in line with fighter's enhancement lines. Used for a dex ranger it is appropriate, used as it is today, well we all know it's headed for a nerfing (just like the batman build and the evasion in full plate), so don't light up the forums with your cries when they balance the game to try and make sword and board make sense - it has to be done and you know it.

[icculus]

Tempest is the new batman. It was designed to give rangers a boost to DPS because they are dex based, but is being adapted for strength based TWF dwarves. Enjoy it, but don't expect it to last forever, and don't try to pretend it's in line with fighter's enhancement lines. Used for a dex ranger it is appropriate, used as it is today, well we all know it's headed for a nerfing (just like the batman build and the evasion in full plate), so don't light up the forums with your cries when they balance the game to try and make sword and board make sense - it has to be done and you know it.

Another uninformed person unable to seperate Batmen from Evasion. Batman has never been nerfed and is argueably far more powerful now with the changes to and increased need for Intimidate. It does probably require more gear than previously though.

The Evasion nerf was a major kick in the balls due to the lack of respec - I pitty the day Kate wakes up and decides it is time to wipe another 5% of the character base out

[Mhykke]

Tempest is the new batman. It was designed to give rangers a boost to DPS because they are dex based, but is being adapted for strength based TWF dwarves. Enjoy it, but don't expect it to last forever, and don't try to pretend it's in line with fighter's enhancement lines. Used for a dex ranger it is appropriate, used as it is today, well we all know it's headed for a nerfing (just like the batman build and the evasion in full plate), so don't light up the forums with your cries when they balance the game to try and make sword and board make sense - it has to be done and you know it.

Settle down. Tempest made rangers on the same playing field as barbarians. And now we're starting to see the ideas come out of boosting fighters and paladins.

I think the devs realize that nerfs aren't the way to go, and they should just boost the classes that need help a bit.

[Uproar]

Simple request for a tough debate.

Can we re-balance the action point cost for fighters armor mastery and shield mastery feats.

Currently they take

2 +1 ac
4 +1 additional
6 +1 additional

So that is 12 Action points for 3 ac add to the dex bonus on your armor
And 12 additional AP to allow 3 more to the dex bonus on your shield.

24 total action points.

Compared to the paltry 4 action points that tempest takes.
for +2 ac and 10% alacrity.

Just doesn't seem to equal out.

1 pt
2 pt
3 pt

Would seem to be more in line with how it should be compared to the other enhancement lines. This would also help a TON now that you are releasing fighter tactical enhancements.

Can I get a yes a no or a we are working on it?

Thanks devs.

IMO it basically it comes down to this, why even offer enhancement that I doubt very many people ever take?

Heck you could also offer a +10 AC enhancement for a cost of 50APs, but why as few would bother.

None of my many fighter builds actually get to take more then 3 picks of these two enhancement lines (I think on one character I took two levels of each). It's just too many points to spend on a relatively minor (although obviously nice to have) benefit. Too many other things are must haves / are required to waste 24 points on these.