Quick suggestion on how to fix monk dps

[Angelus_dead]

If saying that I need to use greensteel kamas to have any kind of DPS with kamas, then perhaps the only fix we really need is greensteel handwraps.

Certainly not. Kamas are already ahead, and giving them Green Steel brings them more ahead.

a greensteel kama, then you're forgetting that everyone else might have that same 1,000,000d6 extra on their greensteel also, making it a wash..

Completely wrong.

When you upgrade all weapons by Xd6 damage, the weapons with a higher rate of making hits improve by more than the slower weapons do. It is not "a wash" by any stretch of the imagination. When you upgrade from +5 Holy to +5 Holy Acid Burst Acid Blast, TWF improves by more than handwraps, which itself improves more than 1HF or THF.

[Angelus_dead]

To make you happy, I redid the chart using +5 holy handwraps of maiming (have never seen pure good on handwraps ) and a pair of mineral II kama's. I think that shows the kind of numbers that you wanted to see..

No. As I already explained, that page gives the TWF guy only 135% the attack rate of unarmed, when he really has over 170%. Just look at the "Offhand to hit" entry of that page: it says "+16/+21/+26", when really you'd have "+16/+16/+21/+26/+26"

Your chart has the kama user winning solidly, but not by as much as he really does.

[binnsr]

When you upgrade all weapons by Xd6 damage, the weapons with a higher rate of making hits improve by more than the slower weapons do. It is not "a wash" by any stretch of the imagination.

that particular comment was addressing DPS in general, not the handwrap vs. kama so much. Mineral II on a pair of khopeshi does the same number of extras in a given amount of time as Mineral II on a pair of greensteel daggers, which give the same number of extras as a pair of kamas (excluding criticals of course, which is a different discussion altogether )

Meh .. why am I bothering? Since my calculations and knowledge are all wrong anyways, why don't you do the damage breakdowns for us all, a_d?

[Angelus_dead]

that particular comment was addressing DPS in general, not the handwrap vs. kama so much. Mineral II on a pair of khopeshi does the same number of extras in a given amount of time as Mineral II on a pair of greensteel daggers, which give the same number of extras as a pair of kamas

The existence of specific situations where a claim is true does not make it correct to state it is universally applicable, which is what you did.

Meh .. why am I bothering? Since my calculations and knowledge are all wrong anyways, why don't you do the damage breakdowns for us all, a_d?

What would be my motivation?

I already showed you exactly where your errors are, so you should be capable of fixing it yourself if you really care.

[Turial]

It would not make sense to do it that way for me because i know i`m switching handwrap sets and i don't see why you would always be using the same kamas and not switching to other non gs sets for different mobs ect.

GS kamas pretty much beat out all the other kamas unless you are looking at holy of greater bane kamas of the appropriate metal to bypass DR and in that case kamas come out ahead because you can't get bane handwraps at the moment.

[nbhs275]

Still, double the base damage???

2d10, 19-20/x2, over 20 attacks averages to 44d10

1d10, 17-20/x3, over 20 attacks is 28d10, now add in the fact that you can duel weild and hence attack about 175% faster, and you understand the difference.

Also, add in any type of bursting effect(like a burst/blast GS) and your looking at the handwraps getting an additional 4d10 damage, and the khopesh getting 16d10. All in all, the handwraps deal about half as much damage.

They really should just make unarmed deal x2 str and a higher dice number, which will mean that monks hit for a relatively high average, but dont crit nearly as often or as hard as the other melee classes.

[binnsr]

Honestly, I don't think that the Thott calculator accurately handles burst and blast damage, let alone being updated for BAB's in excess of +15 (and the additional attacks that come with it) which is part of the problem there. I know how to put numbers in the form and hit the 'analyze' button. So, since I obviously don't know enough beyond that to provide accurate information, why don't you (as the subject matter expert here) do so - in the interests of providing the community more information than just saying 'wrong!!'?

And while we're being honest here, I don't get wrapped around the axle about doing 3.64 less damage than the guy next to me .. I build my characters to be fun to play, as well as being a useful addition to the party rather than the uberest kid on the block; trying to figure out the Thott calculator enough to participate in the discussion here was a diversion from the incredibly boring phone call I'm currently entangled in.

As for changing the number of swings/minute -- easy enough to do - change the twf swings/min to 214.2 (126*1.7 per your guestimation where 126 is the base provided by the tool itself for a TWF monk)

[nbhs275]

here, just to give you an idea what the difference between a full STR monk using a set of +5 holy burst handwraps of pure good does compared to a barbarian using a mineral greataxe

here

Its not the difference of 3.xyz damage. Its a difference of nearly x2.

[Turial]

here, just to give you an idea what the difference between a full STR monk using a set of +5 holy burst handwraps of pure good does compared to a barbarian using a mineral greataxe

here

Its not the difference of 3.xyz damage. Its a difference of nearly x2.

1. You can't get pure good on handwraps yet.
2. Holy burst does not deal 2d10 on a crit it would be 3d6 on a crit for x2.
3. The calculator does not take into account Acid blast on a roll of 20.

[redoubt]

2d10, 19-20/x2, over 20 attacks averages to 44d10

1d10, 17-20/x3, over 20 attacks is 28d10, now add in the fact that you can duel weild and hence attack about 175% faster, and you understand the difference.

Also, add in any type of bursting effect(like a burst/blast GS) and your looking at the handwraps getting an additional 4d10 damage, and the khopesh getting 16d10. All in all, the handwraps deal about half as much damage.

They really should just make unarmed deal x2 str and a higher dice number, which will mean that monks hit for a relatively high average, but dont crit nearly as often or as hard as the other melee classes.

I think I just figured out why it doesn't make sense to me. Are you stating that unarmed fighting with the same feats gets fewer attacks than TWF?

If yes, then the fix should not be more damage per hit, but increase the number of attacks to be the same as other TWFers. Afterall, you have two fists right?

[redoubt]

here, just to give you an idea what the difference between a full STR monk using a set of +5 holy burst handwraps of pure good does compared to a barbarian using a mineral greataxe

here

Its not the difference of 3.xyz damage. Its a difference of nearly x2.

Does that barb have a 50 STR??? I'm prolly just new to the calculator you used, but to get +20 attribute bonus you would need a 50 str.

You also only gave the monk a 4 attack sequence. Don't pure monks get a full bab (or some similar deal)?

You also gave them the same number of swings per minute, is that accurate? (As you can see in my previous post, I do not know what the actual number is for monks, but would support it matching TWF.)

[Aesop]

I think I just figured out why it doesn't make sense to me. Are stating that unarmed fighting with the same feats gets fewer attacks than TWF?

If yes, then the fix should not be more damage per hit, but increase the number of attacks to be the same as other TWFers. Afterall, you have two fists right?

Yeah we got a lame excuse that its two "weapon" fighting and fists aren't weapons...

However I think at level 11 (which is when Greater Flurry happens in PnP) they should apply a +10-15% Unarmed attack speed increase

Implement Superior Unarmed Attack as a Feat

Make Handwraps single Weapons that stack like Ranged weapons and Ammo do (highest bonuses count)

and implement Versitile Unarmed Strike (allows Unarmed strike to count as Bludgeoning Slashing or Piercing)

Aesop

[Angelus_dead]

I think I just figured out why it doesn't make sense to me. Are stating that unarmed fighting with the same feats gets fewer attacks than TWF?

Yes, of course. Haven't you seen a monk in DDO?

If yes, then the fix should not be more damage per hit, but increase the number of attacks to be the same as other TWFers. Afterall, you have two fists right?

Yes, that has been a fairly popular fix suggested by players starting immediately after the preview introduction of monks. There was a rather infamous developer response to this issue on the first day:

No. It's two _weapon_ fighting. I'm using this fist and this other fist doesn't quite cut it.

[redoubt]

Yeah we got a lame excuse that its two "weapon" fighting and fists aren't weapons...

However I think at level 11 (which is when Greater Flurry happens in PnP) they should apply a +10-15% Unarmed attack speed increase

Implement Superior Unarmed Attack as a Feat

Make Handwraps single Weapons that stack like Ranged weapons and Ammo do (highest bonuses count)

and implement Versitile Unarmed Strike (allows Unarmed strike to count as Bludgeoning Slashing or Piercing)

Aesop

What??? In how many movies do you hear, "gonna have to register your hands as deadly weapons."

And turbine says they incorporate pop culture! meh.

And you what Gazebo said about fists not counting... DUDE! Come on! Thats poo and you know it.

[Aesop]

What??? In how many movies do you hear, "gonna have to register your hands as deadly weapons."

And turbine says they incorporate pop culture! meh.

And you what Gazebo said about fists not counting... DUDE! Come on! Thats poo and you know it.

Yep I know it and you know it ... but hey that's the way they wants it apparently

SO I say just give us an Attack Speed bump for Fists and a few other useful additions and be done with it

Aesop

[musashi23]

An increase in attack speed would be nice and I would love to be able to wear two different handwraps. The dev who said fists are not weapons obviously never had his ass kicked when growing up.

[nbhs275]

Does that barb have a 50 STR??? I'm prolly just new to the calculator you used, but to get +20 attribute bonus you would need a 50 str.

You also only gave the monk a 4 attack sequence. Don't pure monks get a full bab (or some similar deal)?

You also gave them the same number of swings per minute, is that accurate? (As you can see in my previous post, I do not know what the actual number is for monks, but would support it matching TWF.)

18 base
3 tome
4 lvl
1 enhancment
10 rage
6 item
2 rage pot
4 madstone
6 scourge
___________
54, max is actually 62

Monk can hit 48, 52 with a pot and abbot loot. But thats only unarmed or with kamas. Even so, they still lack the crit range, crit mulitplier, and str application to make them comparable.

Monks only are a 3/4 BAB class. Im not sure if they actually get full bab, or just an extra attack bonus using their monk weapons. I havent played mine in a while.

[nbhs275]

another idea me and a buddy where talking about was if they gave monks at a decently high level (say 11) a feat for adding wisdom to damage, or dex to damage, or even both. Giving pure monks some form of damage boost is something the class is lacking completly.

[Raiderone]

I feel the problem with Monks is the limited amount of good Handwraps.

I would like to see Greensteel Handwraps in the future.

You should be able to use two different types of Handwrap at the same time.
NOt TWF, but individual Handwrap per Hand. Maybe even TWF, if that what it
takes to get the benefits of two Handwraps.

Look at S&B they get magic benefits from a weapon and a shield.
TWF has two weapons.

Give me FootWraps then......... I guess the handwraps stack when you kick...

[riexau]

Adding gs wraps or fixing the loot tables is a step in the right direction, but it will not bring monk unarmed dps up to par with other dps classes.

End of the day, you end up with a weapon that takes up both hand slots, like a 2 hander, but only gives 1x str.

Plain and simple, give all monk unarmed attacks a glancing blow (to maybe represent internal injuries or something) and call it a day. Oh and gs wraps